Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

Oh..Well tbh I'm glad she isn't on my horses. He works so much better being long reined. If she has obviously realised he needs muscle building then why is she asking advanced movements from him that he obviously isn't ready for? I understand they train differently over in France, was the same in Italy. However, do you not personally see the damage that could be done? Is she making him trot soo fast so when she brings him slower it feels more 'collected'? For a horse to collect he needs to have more impulsion...not speed....and needs to sit back...But Armas is running around on the forehand and then slowing down...Jheez it's confusing me! Bet Armas' brain is fizzing...
 
Did I miss the group hug? Hope not...I'll give you all a hug anyway just because today has been a good day...and I have my Cookie Dough ice cream to finish off in a bit.

Horses were amazing tonight considering the time off they have had and I really can't wait to get back on now.
 
I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions? Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy? No.

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients? Yes. I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind. Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this. I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool). The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing. When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand. Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand. I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures. Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way. But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.
 
Caol Ila said:
I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions? Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy? No.

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients? Yes. I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind. Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this. I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool). The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing. When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand. Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand. I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures. Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way. But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.
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I really like this post :-)
 
Cheers! :)

As an addendum, nowadays my horse sometimes OFFERS half-steps if I have been doing lots of halt-trot transitions, or walk-trot transitions in the shoulder-in, or walk-canter-walks. I take them when offered! But I've learned that holding the front end while putting lots of pressure on the back end is pointless and if my horse had fingers, she'd give you two of them if you did that.

This trainer I mentioned above was used to working with very fancy dressage-bred warmbloods and showed the FEI levels. I did see her applying the same methods with young warmbloods who were at our barn and, like Armas, these horses were pretty hot and I think more inclined to try to please no matter what than a draft cross mare who knows her own mind and body. So I think you can get away with putting some of them under that kind of pressure and they will eventually figure it out (and if you spend time watching Grand Prix tests at a show, you will also see a lot of shight passages and piaffes). But just because you can, should you? When held tightly between hand and leg, these youngsters looked frantic and stressed out and the half-steps they did show looked very tense. And they weren't far along in their training. Probably showing First Level, which I guess is like Prelim over here.
 
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Caol Ila said:
Cheers! :)

As an addendum, nowadays my horse sometimes OFFERS half-steps if I have been doing lots of halt-trot transitions, or walk-trot transitions in the shoulder-in, or walk-canter-walks. I take them when offered! But I've learned that holding the front end while putting lots of pressure on the back end is pointless and if my horse had fingers, she'd give you two of them if you did that.

This trainer I mentioned above was used to working with very fancy dressage-bred warmbloods and showed the FEI levels. I did see her applying the same methods with young warmbloods who were at our barn and, like Armas, these horses were pretty hot and I think more inclined to try to please no matter what than a draft cross mare who knows her own mind and body. So I think you can get away with putting some of them under that kind of pressure and they will eventually figure it out (and if you spend time watching Grand Prix tests at a show, you will also see a lot of shight passages and piaffes). But just because you can, should you? When held tightly between hand and leg, these youngsters looked frantic and stressed out and the half-steps they did show looked very tense. And they weren't far along in their training. Probably showing First Level, which I guess is like Prelim over here.
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I don't have time right now to go back and find my long post, but basically in it, I say that I believe Armas has been a victim (for want of a better word) of being ridden between the leg and hand in too literal a manner. He appears not to accept the leg very well at all and the BTV habit is a clear sign of him learning to evade. This cries out to me that he is a horse that has been ridden in the belief that to get collected work, you need to push forward with the leg, but contain with the hand. It's like packing a bomb!
 
_GG_ said:
I don't have time right now to go back and find my long post, but basically in it, I say that I believe Armas has been a victim (for want of a better word) of being ridden between the leg and hand in too literal a manner. He appears not to accept the leg very well at all and the BTV habit is a clear sign of him learning to evade. This cries out to me that he is a horse that has been ridden in the belief that to get collected work, you need to push forward with the leg, but contain with the hand. It's like packing a bomb!
Click to expand...

Reading threads on here from others who have PREs imported from Spain, one gets the sense that a lot of them have the experience of being harried into piaffe/passage quite early on. In the long reining video, it looked to me like the trainer was doing more or less that -- holding the horse back with the long reins and tapping his bum with the whip. You have so much leverage with long reins that you don't even need to have the feeling of hanging heavily onto the horse or pulling hard in order to have a lot of braking power.
 
I think many people on the thread have commented that things are being rushed before the horse is ready, in order to tick the box of a result, where what he really needs is time to develop. I really liked your post Caol Ila, it gave a really good example :-)
 
Caol Ila said:
I was away up north and missed the whole bun fight.

Do I think the horse looks like he has improved from previous sessions? Yes.

If he was my horse, at the level of training and fitness he's at, and the trainer was asking him for that many half-steps or collected trot steps for as long as she is doing, would I be happy? No.

Do some professional trainers push too hard at things they sometimes shouldn't in order to get results for clients? Yes. I had a trainer who pushed my horse for half-steps when the horse was still at a stage in her training where she leaned on the forehand and pulled like a freight train and obviously lacked consistent impulsion/engagement behind. Horse was in no way light. Trainer's view was that half-steps would help fix this. I was 17 and didn't know enough to question it (and, lets face it, early steps to passage and piaffe sound cool). The exercise didn't achieve anything in teaching the horse to be more engaged behind, it p i ssed her off, and cause other problems that a different trainer ended up fixing. When my horse was being pushed up to collection before she was ready, the way I see being done with Armas here, she responded by tuning out -- becoming very behind the leg, dull to the aids, and still on the bloody forehand. Before we worked with this trainer, she was at least in front of the leg while being heavy in the hand. I regret being so naive and allowing this to happen, but you live and learn and they are very forgiving creatures. Obviously Armas is a very different sort of horse and probably won't react the same way. But for horse who is only just figuring out how to be consistent in the contact and definitely not consistent in his impulsion, that's a lot of half steps.
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This. Kal isn't a PRE, but he is sensitive, sharp, short in the back and neck and loves to evade by ducking behind the vertical. His ultimate evasion is to stand on his back legs which isn't nice for the rider (and can't be good for his hocks). Although he is older than Armas, he came to me quite green and backward . . . and my current jockey/trainer and I have spent well over a year getting him strong and fit enough to carry himself (much less the rider) while going straight and through and working over his back. If any trainer or jockey had chucked half steps or collection at him too early in his (re)education, I would have been furious and it would have overburdened Kal both mentally and physically. Obviously, Kal is not Armas . . . but I do think (FWIW) that this trainer is asking Armas to run before he can walk . . . he is a lovely boy . . . and it's clear that James loves him very much (as we all love our beautiful horses) . . . and I have seen some improvement under this current trainer . . . I just wonder at what cost in the long term?

P
 
My caveat is that I have become very careful about how much I ask of a horse, depending on its level of fitness.

I think everyone who rides should put on a really heavy rucksuck -- I recommend a 60m climbing rope, two litres of water, a couple fleece jackets, some food, and waterproofs -- and then do something requiring a fair bit of balance, strength, and fitness, like a demanding scramble up a mountain. You'd really start to appreciate how your horse might feel. ;)
 
Caol Ila said:
Reading threads on here from others who have PREs imported from Spain, one gets the sense that a lot of them have the experience of being harried into piaffe/passage quite early on. In the long reining video, it looked to me like the trainer was doing more or less that -- holding the horse back with the long reins and tapping his bum with the whip. You have so much leverage with long reins that you don't even need to have the feeling of hanging heavily onto the horse or pulling hard in order to have a lot of braking power.
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I agree many horses coming from Spain are over rushed and treated very badly. Armas is no exemption, I can tell that its my view that he had a hard time in Spain as was very head shy & sensitive when he arrived however with trust and time that has diminished he will now even let me massage and brush his ears some thing that was impossible in the beginning !

PolarSkye said:
This. Kal isn't a PRE, but he is sensitive, sharp, short in the back and neck and loves to evade by ducking behind the vertical. His ultimate evasion is to stand on his back legs which isn't nice for the rider (and can't be good for his hocks). Although he is older than Armas, he came to me quite green and backward . . . and my current jockey/trainer and I have spent well over a year getting him strong and fit enough to carry himself (much less the rider) while going straight and through and working over his back. If any trainer or jockey had chucked half steps or collection at him too early in his (re)education, I would have been furious and it would have overburdened Kal both mentally and physically. Obviously, Kal is not Armas . . . but I do think (FWIW) that this trainer is asking Armas to run before he can walk . . . he is a lovely boy . . . and it's clear that James loves him very much (as we all love our beautiful horses) . . . and I have seen some improvement under this current trainer . . . I just wonder at what cost in the long term?

P
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Sounds like Kal has found a lovely owner. We shall see how the trainer gets on, I see small improvements every day and would never do any thing detrimental to the long term health of my boy.

Here is todays session link

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?626883-Session-16&p=11976695#post11976695
 
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