SHB(GB) Grading Today

[Anastasia]

Ha ha ha ha ha.....

... I am ready with the hair dye before any photoshoots (maybe a touch of back to black, or brunette)....

:grin

Ohh and Lord.....while making all my foals black....can you give me the body of JLO and the riding skills of Anky....

 

[Hollycat]

I'll take the ginger filly foals off you!!!!!!!

I would love to breed a palomino one day

The 16hh black trak filly I dreamed of became a 17hh grey KWPN gelding. People will always buy the opposite of what they think they want

 

[alleycat]

I think we have a huge chasm here between the breeding of breeding stock & the breeding of performance horses, when in reality the two should be one & the same.

Yes, there will always be horses that suceed, or possess valuable qualities, despite horrible conformational weaknesses which they may or may not pass on to their offspring; should we breed from them? The select by performance people say yes- the grading/ breed society people tend to say no.

Who do I agree with? As a small breeder I don't want to breed anything unsound; I can't afford the wastage, as one unsound foal represents 50% of my breeding effort wasted, quite apart from being heartbreaking; so I want to know the risks on using this stallion or that, and I don't take too many risks myself.

On the other hand, looking at the well documented Thoroughbred experience, ill-made & unsound horses have made a huge contribution to this breed; their unsound descendants who couldn't perform were weeded out whilst those sound descendants who didn't inherit the fault but did inherit the ability, showed that ability in competition and returned it to the gene pool, in the process producing a supremely athletic animal purpose made for its job and at its best very beautiful. I have a horrid feeling that this couldn't have been achieved by gradings....I suspect that gradings can select good animals, but without the extremity & stress of competition, they can't select supreme animals or the sort of gifted freaks which actually move a breed forward.

So I can sort of see where Ken is coming from, & I think earlier Tom of Morningside Stud said something similar re. breeding based on performance...

However in this country, with the financial constraints on horse owners, performance isn't always an option, is it?
I suspect that performance results for Continental studbooks are more a reflection of larger numbers, better infrastructure & finance, better early training for riders & better book-keeping than a real reflection of superior horsepower, and many good horses in this country go unrecognised, some of them because they don't look the part.

So for me- well, I'm torn between relying on my own judgement and relying on competition results. Gradings are fascinating, but Rufusbluemoon is right; we do need greater transparency; we need to know just what the judges are seeing and why it is, or isn't, important; and an open analysis of what the stallion produces, and what becomes of it; and not just the successes, but the failures or also-rans too, so that both breeders & buyers can decide what risks, if any, we want to take in using stallions or selecting youngstock. I'm not all that interested in "pass" or "fail", especially when its based on something as hard to pin down as "masculinity" (how many weedy lads do you know who grew into nice men?) but I do want to know the judges thoughts and reasons.

 

[affjumper]

I WENT TO WATCH THE GRADING ON MONDAY, DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY THERE WERE 4 JUDGES THIS TIME ? WHEN LAST TIME IT WAS THREE !. THOUGHT IT WAS SURPOSED TO BE AN ODD NUMBER JUST IN CASE OF DIFFERENCE OF OPIONS ? ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE FUTURITY CHAMPION BEING THERE ? i WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ZUBIN-R IS GOING TO THIS YEARS FUTURITY. WOULD ALSO BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW IT GOES THE OTHER WAY AROUND SHGB STALLION ENTER THE FUTURITY.

 

[affjumper]

Lets be honest i remember following a TB stallion down in the Westcountry who failed twice / three times at the gradings but hay he did well at the Futurity last year if i can re- call.

 

[KenRehill]

[ QUOTE ]
pets that someone has jumped onto the stallion bandwagon with due to sentimental reasons and the ego boost of owning a stallion

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's this that scares the crap out of me for the future of British breeding. The US is in the midst of a stallion owning boom as well, and there's maybe two stallions I'd consider using in the whole of that country. The same can be said of the UK (tin hat on). There's maybe a hand full of UK based stallions that could make it in mainland Europe, you may not believe me, or even want to kill me for saying it, but I can name only two UK based stallions who regularly get calls (not personally) from European breeders asking for semen.

With Zangersheide opening a daughter stud book for 2009 (Zangersheide UK), it may be that approvals will take place then, and perhaps an improvement might be seen. But I think that we'll simply see potential stallion owners looking at the results and thinking "oh dear, that looks a bit tough, I'll go elsewhere and get my boy graded".

The problem, is that until such time as there is a clear and open system, mare owners will continue to be bamboozled by BS. Those who have recognised this, steer themselves towards those studbooks/countries/studfarms/agents who give the clearest and most honest (generally most tested) picture of what they are selling.

I joke about it with customers, but there's a strong element of reality, that in five years time Jaguar Mail will probably be up against thirty or forty of his sons, all vying for their place in the UK semen market.

For those who believe stallion ownership to be a walk in the park, trust me, I see it everyday and it really isn't. There's a lot of aggro and expense, and that's for stallions selling 50+ coverings a year. I cannot imagine what it must be like if you're only selling five or ten a year (an accountant would tell you it's a waste of time).

I've always laughed at the term "graded". Has anyone ever seen the "grading" marks??????????????? All I've ever seen is pass or fail, where are the grades? I think it's time for everyone to call them "licensing" or "approvals", "gradings" just confuses the crap out of the Europeans!

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
well yes there should be some comparison between the two marks but i beleive the stallion grading must be more stringent (Sp??) as obviously they dont want conformation weaknesses being passed on to youngstock

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Zubin are failed AES grading at 2years old (!) for his jump (becuase he had not been prepared at all -- but still got (I think) 8.5 for his conformation so, sorry, that is not a corect assumption. The Futurity is extremely stringent on conformation and on how this will affect the horse's general soundness in the long term so that I am afraid the comment that it is more lenient about conformational faults is nonsence, especially as there is a vet's mark for soundness which is not just about whether it is doing dot-and-carry-one in a trot up (like that grey must have been!) but also assesses how its curent conformation and development will aftect its long-term soundness. It also -- and this could well be where the fault lies with SHBGB -- allows for different kinds of conformation for different sports (mainly related to overall length of frame, angle of shoulder and yes angle of hock) but then its judges are used to assessing horses for studbooks that know that the demands of the different disciplines require a different physical structure. IOW they don't think the world begins and ends with a hunter confomation that would fit a show horse, they need a horse that will get out there and do the job.

BTW at his Futurity I think Zubin R got 9 from the vet Jane Nixon (ironically the SHBGB's own vet on call) who is also the Futurity Chief Consultant vet and probably knows more about the vetting for potential soundness in a competition horse than anyone else in the UK. The fact that a vet plays no part in the SHBGB process (they did do for the first few years of the stallion grading system I think) is yet another thing that the SHBGB could possibly address but I doubt whether it will as you don't need a vet in a hunter show ring so why should you have one at a stallion grading?

A couple of other points, it is true that there is more variation in conformation in stallions graded abroad -- but then studbooks abroad are far more successful at producing dressage horses and showjumpers so perhaps there is lesson to be learned here. Perhaps either SHBGB should stick to eventers (which are pretty much like hunters only faster so it is in its comfort zone there) and let other studbooks do the dressage horses and showjumpers OR it should send its 'judges' to watch how the other -- far more successful -- studbooks abroad balance the pressures of conformation, pedigree and performance potential with the ever-changing demands of modern equestrian sport and (far more frequenstly than SHBGB) usually seem manage to come up with the corret solution. This can be a tough call and needs a flexible mind and a ruthless ability to identify which animals from other studbooks you need to improve your own . It is interesting to see that Dansk Varmblod, one of the best dressage studbooks in the world had 70 young stallions forward for grading this weekend of whom 1/3rd were from abroad (usualy Germany and Holland) but when it came to the final cut of stallions approved to go forward for performance testing, of the 25 chosen only 3 were Danish bred. And of course the imports were not the failures that come here in their droves through specialist deaers or Brightwells auctions or to furnish the egos of dressage riders who think that having a cresty horse wil covicenthe judge that the animal is working on the bit(!), they are the top young colts (inlcduing many German champions) from all the other major studbooks in Europe who wish subject themselves to yet another grading becuase of the prestige and extra mars it adds to their careers. They are happy to do this in Denmark of course becuase they acknowledge the competence of the judges and judge training system there -- but I couldn't imagine them bothering to come to the UK in the same way. I wonder why?

Finally just a semantic point: British Breeding (two large Bs) is a BEF organisation and certainly doesn't have low esteem. OTOH those involved in British breeding (one large B) do when they go to watch events such as that on Monday. It is British Breeding's (two large Bs) job to pick them up off the floor again and educate and encourage them to make suitable breeding decisions based on an informed general world picture based on the demands the FEI sets for the various disciplines.

PS I must apologise for the terrible lits in my post yesterday morning. I couldn't check it as I was dashing off to catch a train to go to a meeting with DEFRA, SHBGB and several other stubooks plus a couple of ID-only PIOs about how to implement the EU regulation SANCO 23 by July 2009 (the one about microshipping foals etc) and how to consult the industry about it. Will keep you all informed of developments as they happen.

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually Zubin are failed AES grading at 2years old (!) for his jump (becuase he had not been prepared at all -- but still got (I think) 8.5 for his conformation so, sorry, that is not a corect assumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

The AES don't give marks at their gradings, you just get a pass (registered/licensed or approved) or a fail and if you speak to them, they will tell you what they did/didn't like but they don't give marks...

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Ciss - I have a question for yourself. Why do the BEF not advertise their list of judges with their experience?? Also my apologies for picking up wrongly about the Futurity...having not entered before I obviously picked this up wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with that, I'll put it to Jan to se if we can get it up on the eweb site. It may take a couple of weeks (bearng in mond Easter etc) but it should be worth the effort . We may not be able to match them to the venues though as there are sometimes last minute changes due to unforseen circumstances (mainly transport ones such as car breaksdowns and cancelled flights I have to say <sigh&gt but apart from that it should be fairly straightforward to arrange.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets be honest i remember following a TB stallion down in the Westcountry who failed twice / three times at the gradings but hay he did well at the Futurity last year if i can re- call.

[/ QUOTE ]

No his progeny did *reasonably* well at The Grange but then presumably at least 50% of that is down to the mares. Also, there were other stallions based in the West Country whose progeny got better scores in other evaluations around the rest of the country. It;s not a competitin -- if you are interested in compatibility of results then it the national / final rankings that count.

 

[Fahrenheit]

I would like to thank all the people involved in trashing Teddy... I really think your discussions would have been better taken to a separate thread personally... but thats just my opinion...

We already said Teddy didn't go as well as he usually does and explained why... he doesn't have a bad back, he only saw the back person a couple of weeks ago to rule it out... but we are having trouble getting him a saddle, the only reason the saddler hasn't come out yet is because we are going to get him a new saddle and everyone is chipping in for it (as they are very expensive), but we think he is worth it... temporary we had to use a saddle that he isn't 100% comfortable in to do the grading or else lose the entry and the chance to grade until Autumn... He did have the back part of the oxer down in the loose jumping ONCE but he took off really early (which does suggest the striding was wrong for him) and just didn't make the back rail, which could also be classed as a baby mistake remember he is only rising 5yos and has only loose jumped a couple of times in his life... the last time, before the night before the grading was last March... its not something a Dressage horse needs to do and also the indoor school has mirrors and glass viewing gallery at his yard so it is unsafe to loose jump and not allowed... and quite frankly after the horse that died at patchetts jumping through the glass windows, when they were originally going to have glass between the two indoor arenas... I don't like loose jumping horses, and Teddy only did it because it is a requirement of grading! Anyway Teddy isn't being ridden now until he has his new saddle, he will be keeping fit on the lunge and his horsey treadmill, which he thinks is ace!
Has for what Teddy has to offer as a stallion, he may not be Olympic potential but not everyone is looking to breed horses destined for the Olympics... his main attributes are his temperament and trainability, I would take a horse with Teddy's temperament over some other stallions with more potential but less trainability anyday!
Here is a few recent pictures of Teddy competing just to show how he usually goes... as everyone involved in horses knows every horse can't go perfectly everyday and you have to work round problems as and when they arise and as usual our problem rose just before the grading.

 

[Anastasia]

LLT2 I am sorry you felt that people were trashing Teddy, because from my point of few that was never in my thoughts.

I was originally commenting on the bad pictures and naturally if only 7 stallions passed then the other stallions were not of a high enough standard.

Naturally the conversation then went onto the UK grading system, but from the posts I can see, no-one has made any mentions to you or Teddy, just on the techniques and standards of grading stallions in the UK.

Ciss - would be good to see the list of judges for the BEF and details of their experience etc. Because I know that sometimes that is a question that many people ask.

At the end of the day everybody will have their own opinions on stallions and gradings etc. I have to say that the one thing about the SSH is that they provide full scores, results and critiques. The stallions are all 5-stage vetted on the day of the grading and for the last couple of years have had to have full clean x-rays. They also use judges that are independant and with a vast amount of experience.

The one thing I did notice this year with the SSH is that they marked the stallions on temperament, which I think is a little strange because how on earth can they assess a stallions temperament on one day???? So I think they cannot give a true reflection on marks for that one, because to assess properly you have to see a horse over a few days.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to thank all the people involved in trashing Teddy... I really think your discussions would have been better taken to a separate thread personally... but thats just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be missing something here. Who has been trashing Teddy? Almost eveyone who was there on the day said that they had absolutely no problem with the stallions that passed (as Teddy did) or failed in the morning, as the judges were in a comfort zone amongst older horses and therefor knew what they were doing, but people do seem to feel that there was a problem with the decsions made about the horses forward in the afternoon becuase they were younger. Where is the trashing of Teddy in that?

Those present also begged people people who weren't there not to make any comments on the quality of the horses forward based on the photographs becuase they were so awful. So again, where is the trashing of Teddy in that?

My only question about Teddy's grading was that although he has a jumping pedigree he seemed to be passed for dressage only by a studbook which, unlike an increasing number in mainland Europe, doesn't split its stallions according to discipline. Upon reflection, I realise that what they meant was 'not approved as a stallion for BSJA purposes but as I doubt whether he was even entered for that (as if he had been you would have done more loose jumoing practice) and as he is destined for a dressage career anyway it is pretty irrelevant. I think it was just stated rather ineptly (actually need not have even been mentioned by the commentator) on the day and confused the audience as well. Personally I have serious doubts about the point in loose jumping either a mature stallion meant for dressage (un-neccesary) or any eventing or showjumping stallion that has already competing in jumping under saddle (as many top rider srefuse to loose jump their ridden horses becuase they say the horses stop listening to them when they do that too much) and althoug the Futurity did the latter in the begining it stopped it after the first year. What the evaluatiors did aquire a skill at though (and something which SHBGB could look at developing in its own grading judges) was an ability to assess just how much the rider was helping/hindering the horse and factoring this into the ability scores. This does not mean that having a good rider would mean that your horse would be marked down (so certainly no trashing of Matt B ) it would just mean that a talented horse with a less talented rider would not have its genes lost to the breeding pool just becuase of the riders performance on the day.

BTW, the mistake in the loose jumping was almost certianly not Teddy's fault in any way but was due to the fact that -- unlike almost every studbook I know of -- the jumping lane contained only a crossed pole and then a spread. IOW, it lacked the essential element of an upright in the middle which gives the horse a chance to balance up properly before the spread rather than trying to take it on a long stride as Teddy bravely did. Sadly yet another instance of where attending a WBFSH course (this time on assessing young horses for jumping) would have helped the judges. So this is definetly NOT trashing Teddy is it?

Or -- as I said, am I missing something here?

 

[Fahrenheit]

By trashing the SHB grading you are trashing the horses that passed...all of them! If the system isn't good enough, then it implies the horses aren't either... also it has been said that the standard of stallion forward was poor and most at best were just good riding horses and someone did say that there were only 2 of stallion quality in their opinion... also impling the judges aren't up to scratch also implies that the horses that passed may or may not have passed with different judges... its a minefield... you can only work with the system you have.
LLT1 you must have known starting the conversation you did how it would turn out as it has been the same time and time again when grading and grading photos have been discussed... hence why I started this thread as a Teddy thread and not an overall SHB thread, to share my joy with anyone who wanted to share in it and avoid being in the centre of a slating of the UK system... and also I only listed the stallions that passed and did not mention the ones that had failed to save some people the pain of having their stallions dissected on a public forum as has been the case in the past...There is a difference between constructive critism and whats been said on here... If you want the UK system to change then do something about it... work towards improving it, suggest ways it can improve, don't just sit back and b*tch about it and slate it!... I won't say anymore... work to done!

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
so certainly no trashing of Matt B )

[/ QUOTE ]

I can quite confidently say, anyone who dared to trash Mat and his riding skills would have me and quite a few others to deal with

(that was a joke btw... hence the poking out tongue smiley!)

I would just like to thank Mat for the wonderful job he has done with Teddy, people may not rememeber but Teddy went to Mat after last years grading when yes Teddy failed

I don't think anyone can dispute the change he has made to Teddy and I feel that this trashing of the UK system has trampled all over one person success, after all, Mat has spent almost the last year working towards this grading result for Teddy. Teddy is literally a different horse... if you don't believe me... I discovered that last Springs grading photos are still on there yesterday when I was being nosey! Have a look for yourself... I think you can see the difference he has made to one horse quite clearly

2008
http://www.pleasureprints.co.uk/events/2008/day17/st07/pages/H17_0085.php
2007
http://www.pleasureprints.co.uk/events/2007/day18/stallion13/pages/D18_0202.php

 

[TayloredEq]

I would like to agree (a little!) with what HG has just said.

I too have a SHB(GB) graded stallion. I do not have this stallion because I have jumped on the stallion owning bandwagon. In fact, I would not choose to have a stallion. Mine is incredibly well behaved but there is so much extra work because of the 'what if' factor.

A lot of what I have read on this thread has just confirmed my view that there is such a steep road ahead for British Stallion owners. Our own people slate the system through which our stallions are graded, and I agree with HG here, therefore demeaning the horses that have been graded on their own merit.

Yes, there are faults with the system and they can be improved. The first one I would suggest is that each horses' marks are announced and explained over the loudspeaker during the grading.

Owning a stallion is an expensive business. I am lucky in that my boy will stable next to mares in normal stabling however for many people that is not possible. Dud to the layout of my fields my guy can also be turned out ( I was lucky that my fencing was already high) but otherwise you have extra cost in that. Then the grading process costs a minimun of £1,000 with SHB. So then you come to actually use your stallion and you've got the extra fees of registering him to be used with SHB, plus your blood tests and swabs another £200+ the list goes on and on.

I am not bemoaning the cost of having a stallion. At the end of the day that is my choice. What I am saying is perhaps it would be nice to have the system supported.

We have priced our lad at £400 NFFR this year but we are not bothering to advertise him (more expense!) as most people natural instinct is to look abroad first. Instead we have him out competing where we find people approaching us for his information. We will never be able to compete with European Breeders as the equine industry is not looked upon so favourably by our Government and our own horse owners do not rate it.

I've slightly lost track of where I'm going with this, but basically surely those people in the UK who are serious about breeding and not just accepting any old mare to their stallion and who are tyring to support British Breeding should be applauded and themselves supported.

So HG - well done for getting Teddy graded. It is not an easy road to be taking.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Well said TE... my feelings exactly but alot better put!!

We haven't got Teddy for the glory of having a stallion either... and we have set a very low limit of mares for him to cover this year because most important thing to us is his competing and his ridden career...

Good Luck to you as well

 

[Law]

[ QUOTE ]


Teddy is literally a different horse... if you don't believe me... I discovered that last Springs grading photos are still on there yesterday when I was being nosey! Have a look for yourself... I think you can see the difference he has made to one horse quite clearly


2008
http://www.pleasureprints.co.uk/events/2008/day17/st07/pages/H17_0085.php
2007
http://www.pleasureprints.co.uk/events/2007/day18/stallion13/pages/D18_0202.php

[/ QUOTE ]

Until I saw the headshots I would have said that was a totally different horse

Wow, what a difference!

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to agree (a little!) with what HG has just said.

I too have a SHB(GB) graded stallion.

[/ QUOTE ]

who actually went through the Futurity system (then known as the YHEs) too and came 4th I believe in the final championships for dressage horses (his first major success I believe). That was also the year that Flayne Daiquiri (champion) and Deanes San Ciro Hit also qualifed for the YHE finals and graded successfully into a UK studbook (in their case the BWBS). And in previous years a then young stalion ownde by the Fichtners did well (in BBWA grading), plus of course Caretino Glory (AES/SHBGB), Up With The Lark and several Fleetwater Opposition sons (all SHBGB) plus Classic Juan and El Roon (BHHS/ SHBGB) also all graded as stallions.

And what was the consistent feature of all those gradings? It was that the 'foreign' judge / judges played a vital role in *all* stages of the grading and was therefore able to offer trained state-of-the-art advice on how to balance the various elements that need to be taken into account when assessing a *young* 3/4 year-old horse (not a mature stalion so again no trashing of Teddy here ). This did not happen on Monday and this could have been a major contributing factor in what happened bearing in mind -- as I say once again -- SHBGB judges do not avail themselves of the WBFSH training workshops <sigh>.

 

[S_N]

Where would I find out who was judging on Monday?

 

[c7mlm]

AND................first place goes to HG for having the most replies to any post on HHO.

 

[eventrider23]

HG – I certainly was NOT saying that Teddy did not deserve his excellent result. On the contrary I am very happy for you and all concerned.

What I was saying is the same as Ciss, that the younger stallions such as Zubin and Never Say No were not given a fair trial and that the reasons for their failings in no way correlated to their previous judgings conformationally from other judges. I know people have argued that that would be because things like the futurity are judging a sports horse and not a stallion but I have to disagree strongly as regardless of whether their a competition gelding or a breeding stallion, good conformation is good conformation irrespective of what they do and in no sport whatsoever would a horse that is back at the knee be deemed as having good conformation, regardless of how well the succeed in the sport.

 

[Partoow]

Like i said i did not understand several bizarre things from the grading that made it almost impossible for the horses to show their quality.
The jumping lane was totally wrong [no 'Teddy' bashing there, total support infact, but also a small piont HG you do know lose jumping is in the Grading , i as i am rubbish at this kind of thing took my stallion to Geof Luckett for help with this for about one session every other week for a few months, that is preparation, i am sorry but if you want to grade that is what you have to do to give your stallion the best chance. Not Teddy bashing just a point of fact in preparation.]
I said the jumping was ALL off the right rein, which was not very fair on the horses either and having seen Teddy work at the regionals, no he was not as free as he could have been, but like you said that was a saddle problem , that was not the judges fault. Again it is the responsibility of the owner to present the stallion in its best light. it is not about how much better things were this year for a particular horse but whether 'AN HORSE' is of a standard to be a progenator. With the added requirement being that the system in place can test this. So you would expect the judges to have undergone the relevant continual development, rather like the progress breeding is doing.
There was a nice chestnut stallion that was ridden very pooly on the flat but thankfully when it was given the chance to show its self loose its canter improved and so did it s jump.
Teddy is obviously a lovely natured chap who is lucky enough to be ridden by a rider who is able to ride what he feels to get the best out of the horse. There are also a variety of mares out there and i can actually see Teddy doing really well on TB mares to produce good eventers as he would have a lot to offer here.
For me he would also be great on sharp mares for dressage that need temperament improvement and a nice modle of a horse. Other mares need other things thats why the variety.
For me at the grading ther were'nt many that were my type but then not everyone would like the kind of horse i like to ride.
This was not the issue , the issue was that i felt that there was no consistency . The fact that there is no vet on the conformation and no real depth of experience in terms of movement and 'ride', unless of coarse you think that fat horses are developed horses...... hunter judges????
There was no 'rider' to test the ridability of those brought forward [hanoverian mare grading does this and they bring two or three judges from Warendorph] I hope to bring forward a very nice colt but only time will tell if he will be good enough and failure will result in gelding i will not trail from one book to the next hoping to find someone to let me in.
Stallion owning is expensive and you have to truely believe in what you are doing and if you are struggling fiancially then you are on to a hiding to nothing .
I would hope you would be happy that people would question the world that we are working in . the continetal books do so all the time , they have their 'internal' problems . The KWPN have withdrawn papers from some very influential stallions in the past as they did not believe they were producing the right stock only to have to let them back in again, they still argue about the value of their 'Basis' or F1 crosses to this day.
No-one is trashing you particular horse it was the system that was being questioned and we all have to come to realise that that smashing horse that we have brought up and some have bred has to be looked at in the cold light of day , we hope by eyes that seewith suitable expertese.I think the SHB[GB] failed, us the membbers in that.
I think that was really what was being said and yes i am afraid none of those horses presented would have even been looked at aboad. Being an Island nation can sometimes restrict our outlook for those that are looking to present horses on that 'world ' stage.
Like i say putting yourself out there you have to accept the critisism, painful that it is at times.
You HG believe in Teddy and you have a rider that will help him realise his potential..... his conformation is strong....now you can just go and get on with it and hopefully produce some nice youg stock on the way.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Where would I find out who was judging on Monday?

[/ QUOTE ]

Judges were Norman Allen, Dr Senckenberg, David Tatlow and Judy Bradwell. I believe that Tom Hudson and Tim Price were doing the judging for the BSJA approvals.

 

[Fahrenheit]

[ QUOTE ]
AND................first place goes to HG for having the most replies to any post on HHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

An honour I would rather achieve for my jokes

 

[The Voice]

Ciss - would you like to see something where judges have to attend training courses or have to go abroad to judge before being allowed to judge and approve stallions, almost like they have to have a licence ( I have a friend who owns Suffolk Punches and she had to do training and so many classes with guidance before being allowed to judge on her own).

As ken says if Zangersheide GB starts and are tougher on the gradings using experienced judges (as an example Hugo Cooreman has 40 years experience as a foal inspector and judge) as a breeder I would be more inclined to look at the stallions in that studbook as I would feel more cofident about the quality of them compared to other studbook stallions in the UK.

 

[Fahrenheit]

Thanks partoow

My point although rather long winded was the way this thread has gone has taken away from the stallions that passed and gives a feeling of disachievement and that its doesn't mean so much to be graded... my feeling were like Taylored Equestrian put... she said it best!

Teddys saddle problem came to light the show after regionals (2nd March i think) and the first thing we did was book the back person... this all takes time and after they had been it was decided the saddle must be the problem, we do have dozens of saddles between us but do you think one is a fit... Nooooooooo! It takes time to get a saddler, even with everyone chipping in so he can have a really good one fitted... there was just no way it was going to get fitted between the back person and the grading so we did the best we could for the day! He was presented in the best light possible working with what was thrown at us in the couple of weeks before hand! Again Mat should be given credit for feeling the problem because alot of people would have put him not going as well down to him being naughty or not being able to do it but Mat could feel the there was a problem and its being dealt with (these things always happen though at the most awkward of times!)

Yes we could have done more loose jumping before we went but finding a local place I considered safe was more of the issue and then it got put off because of having the back person but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of his loose jumping because you can't move the fences at the grading, so he could have done more prep for loose jumping but we would have had him loose jumping a different line so doubt it would have put him on a better stride... I think if they had let him come round again after having the back rail down, he would have apologised for having it down because knowing Teddy he has a huge pop and last year he did the same and then the next time round he gave it a mile clearance, he is very honest like that.

As for what he has to offer... you are right, he already has a mare that has been placed AFEIPSG lined up for this year, his temperament being the key for the this choice of stallion for this particular mare I feel... although has already said we have a very strict limited number of mares lined up for him, for us its about his competition career and we don't want breeding to interfere with that or change his wonderful temperament by giving him too many mares and making him more hormonal than necessary... with careful management many stallions can compete and breed without a problem... it would be all too easy to get as many mares as possible in and look at the short term but long term is the way to look... also hoping to get him frozen soon so taking away the need for him to do regular collections anyway, now he has graded he has earnt having his semen frozen

Oh and meant to say that constructive critism i am happy with but at points this thread has left a feeling of degrading rather than upgrading

 

[KenRehill]

HG - don't take it to heart! You want to hear some of the crap that flies around in Europe about such and such a stallion. I'm afraid it goes with the territory.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and opinions are like a***holes; everyone's got one.

For the last couple of years I've had one fool slag off an entire stud book (Selle Francais), telling the world how crap they are. Of course they are the second best jumping stud book in the world and second best eventing stud book in the world, but why let the truth get in the way of a good personal attack. Then Zangersheide came to me to represent them, so now Zangersheide are crap, and the fool slags me off to the Z inspector (like that wasn't going to get back to me!).

Unfortunately that's the industry.

So don't get down hearted HG, I'm sure your stallion is plenty good enough, and he might even make as a stallion in the future. If he hasn't gone so well in the approvals, don't worry, if he's good enough he'll perform, and if he performs then who knows. If he doesn't, he won't be the first and he won't be the last.

Keep smiling and keep trying.

 

[springfallstud]

Sorry HG you are right this should not have been on your congrats post!! I certinally wasnt thinking of Teddy, Mat has done a fab job and you had already explained the saddle problem

I am going to refrain from furthur comments so not to dig myself into a bigger hole

 

[springfallstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and opinions are like a***holes; everyone's got one.



[/ QUOTE ]

So true!!!!! PMSL

also we all look for different things in a horse, i know my favourite German stallion ever another member on here seriously dislikes nearly everything about him and his offspring!