SHB(GB) Grading Today



Yes I noticed somebody else post about their already graded stallion, but not any of the other entrants, and the reason why is because a lot of stallion owners do not post on public forums because sometimes it is better to say very little and let your horse and stock do the talking when they are in the public domain.

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I'm the other guilty party for commenting!!

What I was trying to get across then and I will say it again now (although I do feel that ultimately we are all singing the same song) is that being a stallion owner in the UK is an uphill battle.

What this thread made me feel was that rather than stand up and do something to improve the grading process in this country people were just saying it wasn't good enough.

I joined this forum because I had googled my stallions name and I happened to see that he had been commented on at the Autumn grading. I was lucky - all the comments directed at him were complimentary.

With this being my first stallion I decided to join as there appeared to be a lot of knowledgeable (sp!) people on the forum and I thought that perhaps I would be able to learn from them and pick their brains a little.

Say someone decides to google Teddy (under his proper name) I haven't tried it but I'm fairly certain this post would come up.

So what then happens...

Someone who was perhaps looking at using Teddy or another SHB(GB) stallion starts reading the thread. It's pretty long so it will take them a few minutes.

By the end of it all what is the general impression that they will get - that UK stud books do not have a thorough or good enough grading system.

That's another one lost to the European market then!!

I have not seen the horse that was at the futurity and then failed at its grading so I'm wary to comment. But I think that what people are saying is that this horse had a major conformational fault.

If this is the case then surely SHB were correct not to grade him. He may go on to have the most amazing career but I understood breeding to be about improving the quality of the horses that we breed. In order to do that the stallions have to be constantly improving and you would hope that they would be overtaken by their offspring.

So performance ability and breeding ability are 2 totally different things.

So my final comment ( I think) would be that I ask people to think when they comment. Perhaps they would be able to find a positive comment first, then offer the criticism and then offer a suggestion of improvement.

After all there is a lot of preparation and cost involved in producing and keeping a stallion. If we want to improve British Breeding then we all need to feel able to communicate. I think this forum is great for discussion and it should be a place to discuss ways forward.

Perhaps someone does need to open the eyes of the stud books. Maybe someone needs to print off this thread and the one relating to the AES and send them to the relevant people. It might be enough to get the ball rolling...
 
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Look at Northern Ireland 20 odd years ago who would have ever thought that would have got sorted

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That had nothing to do with politics, the various factions simply found drug running and alcohol rackets more profitable, especially as money from the US started to dry up.

Out of interest, can anyone tell me any of the strengths of any of the UK based stud books please? Someone mentioned "strengths and weaknesses", I've got the second part, I'm just looking for the first!
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yes HG I noticed... :-) others were a tad more opinionated......
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It's interesting listening to everyones points of view and can see it from all sides, it has made some good reading nonethless, just a shame that Teddy was caught in the middle of the thread.....

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Opinionated, Opie that is like the pot calling the kettle black, haven seen you in action on other forums...
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I joined this forum because I had googled my stallions name and I happened to see that he had been commented on at the Autumn grading. I was lucky - all the comments directed at him were complimentary.

With this being my first stallion I decided to join as there appeared to be a lot of knowledgeable (sp!) people on the forum and I thought that perhaps I would be able to learn from them and pick their brains a little.

Say someone decides to google Teddy (under his proper name) I haven't tried it but I'm fairly certain this post would come up.

So what then happens...

Someone who was perhaps looking at using Teddy or another SHB(GB) stallion starts reading the thread. It's pretty long so it will take them a few minutes.

By the end of it all what is the general impression that they will get - that UK stud books do not have a thorough or good enough grading system.

That's another one lost to the European market then!!

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TE, you are very very naive if you think that all the horse forums in the world just talk about stallions in a positive way. If Nijhof, Klatte, VDL, PS or any of the big names in the world were to do the same then they are going to get positives and negatives on stallions.

The same goes for studbooks, do you see people stop using the AES studbook through the other thread that started last year, I dont think so! Most professional people are not going to care about talk on public forums, as that is all it is "talk" and "peoples opinions".

The difference is that they are professional enough to know that people speak and discussions like this take place. They dont start posting on public forums, they concentrate on their own businesses and let the horses and youngstock they breed to do all the talking.

Am sorry but the more people winge about this then the bigger the issue they are making about it. Especially as you are the ones who's stallions "have passed", what about the folk who's stallions haven't! Why dont you all just be delighted with your results of your stallions and look forward to your breeding season?

If the OP had just left it, without making a bigger issue, then this thread would have been half the size and people would have forgotten about it in days.

There are many stallion owners on this forum, just get on with it. Promote your stallions and youngstock and let them do the talking for your studs.
 
British Studbooks?
On my limited experience-
SSH- seems very positive. I like its outlook, vision & balance, & it does seem to communicate.
AES- it gets slated for its performance-based outlook- but its obviously got a very good point, and some excellent horses registered.
GSB- No TB, no warmblood: and warmblood studbooks are STILL making use of the products of this system. Excellent on the information front and very approachable, even by the small breeder.

Don't know much about the others.

I suspect the potential weaknesses are common to the stud-book system worldwide; and I still say that information is what we need on stallions registered; not just a pass or fail.

Its easier to find out the positives of continental stallions, but just as hard for any but the most dedicated expert, attending every grading & collating notes, to find out the negatives IMO; so still a matter of promotion rather than information.
 
Maybe I didn't word my reply very well.

I am not so naive as to think that a horses points will not be discussed on an open forum. This was not what I was commenting on.

What I was trying to get across is that a lot of people want to improve British Breeding. And to do this I think our studbooks need to be taken more seriously. This thread has proven that people are not satisfied with them

Maybe I should have not mentioned the fact I own a stallion as I feel it is irrelevant to the discussion. the reason I mentioned it was to demonstrate how some people come to be on this forum.

Someone commented earlier on how they don't go to SHB(GB) to look for a stallion. I think they also said that they wouldn't discount a stallion for being graded with them but that it wouldn't be the first place they would look for stallions.

I am not whinging (sp!) I am merely trying to offer my opinion into the pot.

You are right when you say that most professionals won't listen or care about what is written on a forum. However the majority of Bristish riders are amateurs. A lot of people breed to continue the line of a well loved mare. These are the people that might need help being educated and could be influenced by forums such as this.

I am not trying to stop people from discussing topics like this. I think it is unfortuneate that HG's post got hijacked but that is by the by. It is necessary for people to talk for things to improve and for this to happen it needs to be constructive criticism.

Maybe I am naive, maybe I am an idealist. But Nomis the essence of your thread is that I should shut up and stick my head down and just get on with my stallion.

How can anything change if that happens?

I am not a stud, I am a competition rider who happens to have a stallion. I am in no doubt that if his balls become an issue they will be chopped off. The stud work is not the be all and end all for me. I have no intention of trying to live off any money earned from it. But should that change in the future I would like to think that being graded with a UK stud book could actually mean something worth while.
 
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Someone commented earlier on how they don't go to SHB(GB) to look for a stallion. I think they also said that they wouldn't discount a stallion for being graded with them but that it wouldn't be the first place they would look for stallions.



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The person who was commenting on the above was me. I'll try & explain a bit more about what I mean. My business is retail & branding especially. I look at the big stud books as brands. There is considerable work put into communicating to the general public what the studbook "brand" is. Look at Zangersheide - they have paid UK reps (aka Ken), glossy brochures, DVDs, open days etc, all sending out the message about the kind of horse their studbook represents.

Having a strong brand is great because it drives "active" customers to you as they know what the brand represents & hopefully the horses under that studbook banner are representative of the brand. Secondly, a brand provides a premium image & therefore hopefully a price - hence the success of the Hanoverian auctions etc..

For better or worse, some of the UK based studbooks have a certain "brand" attached to them. As this thread has shown, SHB(GB) is still seen as a showing studbook. Whether or not this is actually the case is almost irrelevant as the public perception does exist.

So when I say that I wouldn't go the SHB to look for a stallion, I liken it to the analogy of heading to the high street this weekend to do some shopping. If I'm looking for a little outfit to go out night clubbing in, I'm not going to head over to M&S - even though they probably could supply me with this outfit.

So, as a mare owner looking for a dressage stallion, using UK based studbooks only, I would go first to the Hanoverian & BWBS websites & look at the stallions on there, as my perception is that they are more dressage orientated. Just as I mentioned earlier, I think Z horses is a superb brand but to me Z = showjumping, so I'm not going to ring Ken up about their stallions when I'm looking to breed a dressage horse. Doesn't mean I don't like their stallions!

So, if you are still here after all that waffling, then as a stallion owner you should be thinking carefully about the branding of your stallion & the studbook he was born into & graded into is a big part of this. This doesn't mean that I think SHB(Gb) is a worthless grading to have, I congratulate anyone who was produced & graded a stallion into the studbook & that is an achievement
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. But, as the market stands at the moment, you may be limiting your marebooks. Hedge your bets & get him graded with several different studbooks
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Look at Sieger Hit, Oldenburg licensing champion 2007 & yet this week he was at the approvals in Denmark for further inspection.
 
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Someone commented earlier on how they don't go to SHB(GB) to look for a stallion. I think they also said that they wouldn't discount a stallion for being graded with them but that it wouldn't be the first place they would look for stallions.



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The person who was commenting on the above was me. I'll try & explain a bit more about what I mean. My business is retail & branding especially. I look at the big stud books as brands. There is considerable work put into communicating to the general public what the studbook "brand" is. Look at Zangersheide - they have paid UK reps (aka Ken), glossy brochures, DVDs, open days etc, all sending out the message about the kind of horse their studbook represents.

Having a strong brand is great because it drives "active" customers to you as they know what the brand represents & hopefully the horses under that studbook banner are representative of the brand. Secondly, a brand provides a premium image & therefore hopefully a price - hence the success of the Hanoverian auctions etc..

For better or worse, some of the UK based studbooks have a certain "brand" attached to them. As this thread has shown, SHB(GB) is still seen as a showing studbook. Whether or not this is actually the case is almost irrelevant as the public perception does exist.

So when I say that I wouldn't go the SHB to look for a stallion, I liken it to the analogy of heading to the high street this weekend to do some shopping. If I'm looking for a little outfit to go out night clubbing in, I'm not going to head over to M&S - even though they probably could supply me with this outfit.

So, as a mare owner looking for a dressage stallion, using UK based studbooks only, I would go first to the Hanoverian & BWBS websites & look at the stallions on there, as my perception is that they are more dressage orientated. Just as I mentioned earlier, I think Z horses is a superb brand but to me Z = showjumping, so I'm not going to ring Ken up about their stallions when I'm looking to breed a dressage horse. Doesn't mean I don't like their stallions!

So, if you are still here after all that waffling, then as a stallion owner you should be thinking carefully about the branding of your stallion & the studbook he was born into & graded into is a big part of this. This doesn't mean that I think SHB(Gb) is a worthless grading to have, I congratulate anyone who was produced & graded a stallion into the studbook & that is an achievement
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. But, as the market stands at the moment, you may be limiting your marebooks. Hedge your bets & get him graded with several different studbooks
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Look at Sieger Hit, Oldenburg licensing champion 2007 & yet this week he was at the approvals in Denmark for further inspection.

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ITA and could not have put it better!!!
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DQ1 - great example, and really clearly demonstrates how some of the big continental studbooks have become ultra professional in their branding and marketing. It seems as though that's the way that the UK will have to go, and there are lots of advantages to moving in that direction. (At the other end of the spectrum, I do have to admit that I love my very occasional visits to Ireland, and the hunt for that "potential star" amongst the scruffy-looking herd in the field of a small farmer. And you don't get slap-up Irish breakfasts followed by a nip of poteen on visits to Lanaken either!)
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I think that this has been a really, really interesting thread, with some different but well-argued views, and lots to encourage us all to think about how we can support the successful growth of British breeding. I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone because I feel that I've learnt a lot, and a big regret that HG's original posting got hijacked!
 
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Look at Sieger Hit, Oldenburg licensing champion 2007 & yet this week he was at the approvals in Denmark for further inspection.

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And that is it in a nutshell. The reason why his owners were willing to put him forward to yet another grading after his German one was becuase they knew that the judges that would be looking at him were skilled, trained specialists in the selection of sports horse stallions whose knowledge and ability to do so is on a par with the other major studbooks in Europe. The top studbooks all go to each others stallion selections (it's really fun counting heads -- Is Thomas Nissen around? Has Johann turned up yet? I wonder what Ingvar Fredricksen is talking to Ludwig about? Shall we ask them at dinner etc) but I never ever seen a representative of the SHBGB panel at any of them, or (apart from Tom Hudson briefly and he was actually representing the BSJA) have I ever seen any of them at any of the WBFSH young horse assessment seminars.

This, of course, is in contrast to the practice of quite a number of the more informed breeders in the UK (including a noteable number on this list) who can be seen -- along with many of the Futurity evaluators -- at a variety of such events thoughout the year and one might suggest are therefore rather more well informed about the current trends in sport horse breeding than at least one UK studbook might imagine <sigh>.

This is the sort of thing that creates the credibility gap that has been at the core of this thread. No-one queries the decsions when the panel is in its comfort zone (proven TB sires, proven eventers and obedient well-presented dressage horses and showjumpers that have some competition success behind them) but the actual key ability to spot a potential top class sire as a 3 year old is something completely different and far more demenading. It takes years and years of looking at 100s of potential candidates as they mature from youngsters through to to ridden horses -- and knowing the animals mentioned in the pedigreees as sire, dam's sire, dam's dam's sire etc and what they produce -- and that isn't possible here so you have to east humble pie and go abroad to do it. Personally as far as Zubin R is concerned I doubt whether anyone concerned last Monday (except for Senkenburg) had even heard of Lupicor, let alone Pion or Doruto, and this lack of knowldge is equivalent to setting up as a flat race TB breeder without knowing who Saddlers Wells is <sigh>.

Obviously they know about Primitive Rising and Ben Faerie (neither of whom were actually ever presented to SHBGB for grading of course) so that is OK as afar as eventers go, so perhaps they should be encouraged to stick to what they know and concentrate on evenetrs. After all the studbook is responsible for some of the best of those in the world and SHBGB's lowly ranking (ca 6th in the WBFSH list) is far more to down to the fact that event horse owners here have been notoriously lax in registering the correct breeding with the FEI than anything else. Also the WBFSH has not really yet accepted that HIS and NLHBS are the old terms for SHBGB and that horses with those papers whould be included in the SHBGB results so -- cedit where credit is due -- we need to bear that in mind too and encourage riders to come from abroad to buy young eventers of international potential here rather than assume that just because a warmblood has a TB sire it is fast, agile and flexibke enough to be a 4-star horse.

Finally, the point Taylorequestrian made about Zubin R's so-called conformation fault -- it doesn't exist. Stallion grading is not a beauty contest and in the same way as Paula Radcliffe could never win Miss World, he isn't a show horse (wasn't bred to be one), he is a showjumper (was definetly bred to be one) and when originally judged by Jphann Knapp as a foal by the KWPN he got a high first premium (something like 3rd overall in the UK for his year) so the fact that he also got a very good conformation mark from the Futurity -- an organisation that has (I feel) far closer links in experience and training to the top ranking shj and dressage studbooks in Europe than to showing -- is perhaps not surprising. IOW, if I were a child who hoped to run Marathons as an adult I would rather have PR as a mother than any Miss World.
 
I too, like Rufusbluemoon, feel that this has been a very interesting thread with many a worthwhile comment from everyone, and while I am sorry it was overtaken by LLT2's good news, I think it has been a worthwhile topic.

Ciss, do we know how the Futurity marks have compared with marks that the same youngsters have been given by their own Breed Associations (if they have also been graded with them?)? I also think that would be a good assessment tool, along with the actual "qualifications/experience" of the judges concerned.

I am "presuming" that if NED get both the Futurity marks and any from the Breed Associations that this information can be easily collated?
 
Hear hear Ciss!!! I too think this has post has proven to be far more in depth and political than it started as and has actually highlighted a lot of mis and pre-conceptions in gradings and the industry as a whole.

Taylored Equestrian - I too have to concur with what Ciss said with regards to Zubin R. If you re-read through the posts, the arguement is that he does NOT have ny conformational fault at all, this being proven by his BEF and KWPN assessments. The point of contention was that the SHBGB failed him on the premise that he has a couple of major conformational defects....which are in fact non existent. I think if he had been failed on some other point such as maybe being too green and thus not jumping well enough, people wouldn't be as upset as after all he is a youngster and this can be prepared better and represented another time. The fact that he passed on all these fronts but was in the end failed for a non existent faut is what has got people upset. As a result of this failing the owner is now very dissilusioned with the breeding industry and seriously contemplating no longer allowing him to stand at stud which IMO would be a great loss to the UK breeding industry as his are very valuable bloodlines that would hopefully go on to serve us well. Yes he is not yet proven in the sport but then neither is a lot of our excellent young up and coming stallions such as Future Illusion, Furst Opera and so on and he is a valuable member of this generation and hopefully his owner will se this and not be disheartened and present him fr grading elsewhere if not
SHBGB again.
 
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the arguement is that he does NOT have ny conformational fault at all, this being proven by his BEF and KWPN assessments

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I would not assume that this is automatically the case. When working alongside KWPN assessors and listening to thier critiques they are happy to explain that all horses have conformation faults, in the case of Lupicor progeny it has been commented by KWPN officials over the years that the angle of the hocks can be "small" and there have been cases of his progeny being back at the knee, however they will address the observation and follow thier comments with small angle of hock but uses it well............ other similar statements such as upright in neck but uses it well............. straight in the hind leg but active quick and pushes well, strong well developed wither and top line but strong through the back in his movement (meaning lacking suppleness)

The KWPN inspectors identify a horses strengths and weaknesses and will award scores higher or lower on how severe or detrimental they feel the conformation fault will be to his activity in sport.

They frequently approve stallions with conformation faults, and prefer to be aware of them and inform breeders of them and watch to see the rate at which he as a sire passes those faults onto his progeny by providing foal reports.

They recognise that conformation faults in the limbs of stallions are not always genetically passed on and are prepared to give a stallion the benefit of the doubt if they feel that he possesses other exceptional qualities that outweigh his areas of weakness.

The overall summary given by Johan K several years ago whilst giving his speach in conformation to its Scottish Audience, was that one must always look at a horse as a whole and not focus on individual areas of weakness.

The KWPN fortunately have a system in place to revoke a Stalllions license if he does propegate major conformation faults in his progeny, which again opens up the discussion as to just how important is a stallion grading. We are advised that yes its ok to use this one..... then a few years down the line are told.. oops we made a mistake...........
 
I see what you mean Opie but I believe in this instance that the horse genuinely doesn't have this fault and have it on very good veterinary authority (as well as Ciss and BEF, etc) that there is nothing wrong.
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I had to go back a few pages to find the names of the judges on that day, and it seems SHB were trying to get a mixture of types of judges and maybe this is part of the problem - they are trying to be all things to all people.
There was Dr Senckenberg - Trakehner Verband judge and I think something to do with the Marbach state stud so should know what he is looking for in a sporthorse
Judy Bradwell - eventer and show producer - no idea what her background in breeding is I am afraid, but I think she is also a BYEH judge?
Norman Allen - stallion owner, another eventing man.
David Tatlow - I only know of him in his capacity as a hunter producer and show judge, no idea what his links to breeding or the sporthorse world are.

I would have thought that Judy Bradwell and David Tatlow would be looking for a differently presented horse and different stamp to the German judge. Norman Allen again I would have expected to like the TB stamps and be more familiar with them than any dressage horses presented?
 
TFS i find your NEGATIVE comments very interesting, i have been breeding / SJ for many years, looking back at your previous "post" you seem very negative about this horse. Im sure we would all like to know why ?? Do you know what "correct" conformation is ?? pls tell us. Or is it something more interesting ??.
Im sure if your a genuine person then you will put your name to your claims !!
I am looking forward to following this horse on the circuit, and wish everyone concerned the best of British luck !!! im positve he will do the British proud !
 
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Im sure we would all like to know why ?? Do you know what "correct" conformation is ?? pls tell us. Or is it something more interesting ??.

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Sorry to hi jack the challenge- but this is the point! We would ALL like to know why.

Doubtless there WAS a reason; the horse DID fail a grading.

Whether it was a RELEVANT reason is quite a different matter. Maybe the horse was immature; which to us mareowners is NOT relevant. However, the very fact that he was seen and liked elsewhere actually gives rise to more speculation; it defames either the judges (because both lots of judges can't be right, can they? so one lot has to have got it wrong?) or gives rise to negative speculation about the horse (e.g. what invisible fault is he hiding, that has become apparent since his last appearance, etc.)

Such speculation would NEVER HAVE THE CHANCE TO ARISE, if gradings were working properly, and a proper explanation for the judges decisions was made public; and we could all judge whether the "fault" was real or not.

The significance of the judges' decisions, both for and against, goes well beyond the society with which the horse is being graded, as studbooks accept each others decisions; so an information vacuum into which damaging speculation can pour, undermines the whole industry.
 
Hear Hear Jumpinternational - on reading your post I too went back and had a re-read of this (now incredibly very long) post and also noticed how very negative TFS has been towards this horse throughout. Please TFS if you are on here, please let us know why it is you are so against him. As Ciss has pointed out - the only reason he failed the AES grading last year was because he was only 2 and hadn't been properly prepared for the loose jumping section.

Please - let us all know what it is that has you so against this horse....after all, if there is a genuine falt that is the root of the reason for his failing, then of course we would all like to know.
 
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