Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
So owners blame the staff that they had hired and retained...
Shortage of grooms?
- Thread starter AShetlandBitMeOnce
- Start date
So owners blame the staff that they had hired and retained...
Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
Exactly the same... Plus "the toilets are shitty".You haven't guessed what the customers said!
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
Yes! Almost to a person, the customers rated the staff very highly (excellent/v good on a Likert scale with a neutral central point) and often told me anecdotes of aspects of the relationships they had enjoyed. The customers were also unimpressed with facilities like loos, and the inability of their partners to buy a simple coffee whilst waiting for children etc.
Horses_Rule
Well-Known Member
I spent the first 6 years of my working adult life as a groom running high spec livery and working for a high level showjumper. I adored my job but was sick and tired of being treating like something someone had stepped in on a daily basis by my employer and other clients. I had one livery scream in my face at 9pm doing late checks that their horses has 2 rugs on instead of 3… There is a huge stigma in the world revolving around people having time off sick or injured. If you work in horses you are going to get injured and a lot of employers have issues with that?! I tore the ligaments in my ankle and lived in an upstairs flat at one job and so my parents told me to take my time off at home so they could help as I had 2 dogs and 2 horses at the time. My employer was furious and threatened to come and collect me from my parents so I could be ‘onsite’. And to top it off at the one job I lived onsite at during the ‘beast from the east’ a few years back my employer knowingly left my flat without heating oil so I had no heating or hot water all whilst paying me pittance. That’s when I decided enough was enough. It’s such a shame as men and women do this job for the love of the animal and have spent years and years buildings their skill set to be the best only to be treated like dirt. In none of my jobs has my employer offered to come and help when we were a staff member down just expected to get on with it and struggle whilst they sit inside their warm cosy house whilst it’s -5 and snowing and you have a yard of 20 on your own. Slavery was abolished a long time ago so why are so many grooms still treated in such a way? And as for these ‘apprenticeships’ on yards they’re great if you have a good employer however far too many see it as a way of getting stupidly cheap labour. There are some good employers but sadly I think there are more bad ones. Now I drive HGVs for a living and work the same hours for x4 as much pay, sit in a nice warm truck without getting dragged through mud on a daily basis. I have my own horses who I can enjoy and not resent because I was sick of the sight of them when I worked full time on a yard. I would go back to horses tomorrow if people started to pay a living wage and treat people with respect but the horse world has a long long way to go!
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
I've heard yard staff be shouted at when things like my full livery horse hasn't been mucked out etc but I've never witnessed any of them be spoken to by clients with anything other than courtesy , I certainly don't. But i have and do witness a lot of corners being cut , like water buckets not cleaned , feet not picked out , wet not taken out properly and if these people worked for me , I wouldn't be too impressed.
On the whole , the few yards that have been able to get "proper adults " to work for them (say age 30+) the work ethics is much better. There are so many kids (and yes I include people in their early 20s in this ) who think it's acceptable to either not turn up , turn up late , do half a job and generally waste time to avoid putting in a hard day's work.
I can only assume that in their circles this is ok as so many of them are like that , they probably behaved like that in school and it was OK, and many of them live with their parents so don't really care if they get paid or not. And mummy or daddy usually drives them around too.
On the whole , the few yards that have been able to get "proper adults " to work for them (say age 30+) the work ethics is much better. There are so many kids (and yes I include people in their early 20s in this ) who think it's acceptable to either not turn up , turn up late , do half a job and generally waste time to avoid putting in a hard day's work.
I can only assume that in their circles this is ok as so many of them are like that , they probably behaved like that in school and it was OK, and many of them live with their parents so don't really care if they get paid or not. And mummy or daddy usually drives them around too.
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
Thankfully my yard has the loo and tea room kept clean and we all get told off if we do not clean up after ourselves.
Horses_Rule
Well-Known Member
I totally agree there are difficulties in keeping staff but that’s across the board in all sectors I think. There are problems with reliability and work ethic but when people are treated in such poor ways ( at some places not all) it’s no surprise. A lot of employers take huge advantage particularly of younger girls or guys Who do the job for the love and expect far too much from them and then they start to cut corners and get fed up. People become over worked working 6/7 days a week 10-12 hours outside in crap conditions getting pushed pulled stomped on and whatever else and not a thank you for it . People mess up we are human but shouting at someone for not doing a horses bed properly is the same as shouting at someone at Tesco for doing something wrong whilst scanning your shopping. It isn’t acceptable in that circumstance yet people think it’s ok to speak to yard staff in that way and that’s where a lot of issues lie I think unfortunately. If people can get paid more money , have better working conditions and be treated like an equal human being then they’ll go where those jobs are unfortunately. I agree we are becoming a culture of laziness and can’t be bothered attitude but when the good ones are treated worse than the bad ones and good ones are expected to pick up the slack and get nothing for it then we’ll be left with no one!
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
Its a bit like Care Staff who deserve much higher wages, but the clients would have difficulty in paying more for the service.
The horse industry has been notorious for paying badly.
As a matter of interest, what is the rate of pay for racing stable staff?
There used to be a magazine that would go round yards to interview the personalities and it was startling in the difference in the way the staff were treated. Some had meals provided for them, other yards did not.
And I also have know people go and work in a yard and then be too exhausted to do anything with their own horses on their day off - so they leave.
The horse industry has been notorious for paying badly.
As a matter of interest, what is the rate of pay for racing stable staff?
There used to be a magazine that would go round yards to interview the personalities and it was startling in the difference in the way the staff were treated. Some had meals provided for them, other yards did not.
And I also have know people go and work in a yard and then be too exhausted to do anything with their own horses on their day off - so they leave.
Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
Bad management is in every sector of the economy, in every country in the world.
My daughter worked in a restaurant in Montreal for something like eight months before coming back to spend Christmas with us.
Her "managers" are incompetent. HR and payroll are outsourced, the managers should have enough time and energy to deal with day to day matters like rostering different employees for kitchen and waiting duties, but can't manage that.
When she asked for three weeks off to come back to Europe, her direct manager said "you need to find somebody to cover your shifts while you're off".
When she made a complaint about a waiter sexually harassing her, the same manager said "I'll have a word with him and in the meantime you can't talk to anybody about it". Never mind that this same waiter has already harassed another waitress and even followed her after work...
That other waitress has since resigned (mostly because that waiter was making her feel very uncomfortable), leaving the restaurant more short staffed, and the remaining staff are told "this is how many shifts there are to be worked this week, divvy them up amongst yourselves"...
My daughter felt some sense of duty to try to find somebody to replace her during her three weeks off. I suggested that she shouldn't feel under any sort of obligation to do the manager's job of recruiting and organising somebody to cover for those shifts, on top of worikng the remaining shifts she was rostered for.
She was told that her contract would be terminated is she didn't find her own replacement.
I said to her: "Your manager is an idiot. You don't like working there, you just like the people you work with. You've been hired, you've been kept on, you have passed the first and biggest hurdle: getting your first job and keeping it. Every employer wants staff who have already got some experience and who are operational very quickly, and that's you, so whenever you want you'll be able to step straight into another job." There are "NOUS EMBAUCHONS" signs all over Quebec, and at a guess there will be "WE'RE HIRING" signs all over the other provinces.
While she was over here, Canada imposed stricter limits on what businesses could stay open, and restaurants had to close. Her contract has therefore been suspended, not terminated, and I reckon that the manager will be asking her to come back as soon as the rules allow the restaurant to open again.
I doubt that he'll offer more than the C$10.05 minimum wage, though.
My daughter worked in a restaurant in Montreal for something like eight months before coming back to spend Christmas with us.
Her "managers" are incompetent. HR and payroll are outsourced, the managers should have enough time and energy to deal with day to day matters like rostering different employees for kitchen and waiting duties, but can't manage that.
When she asked for three weeks off to come back to Europe, her direct manager said "you need to find somebody to cover your shifts while you're off".
When she made a complaint about a waiter sexually harassing her, the same manager said "I'll have a word with him and in the meantime you can't talk to anybody about it". Never mind that this same waiter has already harassed another waitress and even followed her after work...
That other waitress has since resigned (mostly because that waiter was making her feel very uncomfortable), leaving the restaurant more short staffed, and the remaining staff are told "this is how many shifts there are to be worked this week, divvy them up amongst yourselves"...
My daughter felt some sense of duty to try to find somebody to replace her during her three weeks off. I suggested that she shouldn't feel under any sort of obligation to do the manager's job of recruiting and organising somebody to cover for those shifts, on top of worikng the remaining shifts she was rostered for.
She was told that her contract would be terminated is she didn't find her own replacement.
I said to her: "Your manager is an idiot. You don't like working there, you just like the people you work with. You've been hired, you've been kept on, you have passed the first and biggest hurdle: getting your first job and keeping it. Every employer wants staff who have already got some experience and who are operational very quickly, and that's you, so whenever you want you'll be able to step straight into another job." There are "NOUS EMBAUCHONS" signs all over Quebec, and at a guess there will be "WE'RE HIRING" signs all over the other provinces.
While she was over here, Canada imposed stricter limits on what businesses could stay open, and restaurants had to close. Her contract has therefore been suspended, not terminated, and I reckon that the manager will be asking her to come back as soon as the rules allow the restaurant to open again.
I doubt that he'll offer more than the C$10.05 minimum wage, though.
Last edited:
wiglet
Well-Known Member
I hear ya... Currently at month 5.
I work long and unsociable hours, I need someone to do my horse but atm, I'm really not trusting them. DIY actually seems an attractive option right now...
The Irish Draft 2022
Well-Known Member
I now I going to annoy a lot of people by saying this. A lot of yard owners wouldn’t declare there yard as business because they won’t pay taxes For running a business everything is cash because it’s not traceable . That’s why they are getting away with paying so little.
I think we need more employee rights in the equestrian world.
I think we need more employee rights in the equestrian world.
teddy_
Well-Known Member
I don't think employee rights are the issue. Employees have ample 'rights'.
The issue remains that some employers do not care to take responsibility for or even acknowledge those rights.
I know of so many grooms who work on a 'self-employed' basis, when they are employees in everything but name.
Last edited:
Chianti
Well-Known Member
I think if you're a livery client and you use a mug you should wash it up and wipe any surfaces you've made dirty. I don't think you should have to do any more than that- certainly not clean toilets!
MuckerOuter
New User
I am a groom and I would say the problem areas are
- Full livery is too cheap
- Younger people seem to not be efficient and some have a bad work ethic
- Older people and women (more likely to be grooms) have babies and can’t return (like me)
Myself and our last groom had a baby and it meant we had to cut down / leave. I now do 3 mornings a week which is a real stretch and I don’t make any money because I have to pay a babysitter. Having a family and grooming does not work. I really miss working because the yard was my entire life, but that was not a normal existence and I had to get a life lol.
The money is ok but the hours are low and I totally understand why, because a yard with facilities is ridiculously expensive to run and the livery doesn’t pay enough for staff. This is an industry problem and won’t change unless everyone changes.
I have to do all tasks at speed and very efficiently to keep my hours down. As well as not being attractive to employees (who wants minimum wage and low hours?) it is also a SKILL. Mucking out fast is a skill, the organisation you need is a skill, being on the ball is a skill, handling horses is a skill. Livery fees don’t pay for this level of skill. As someone said before, you’re not paying so much for someone’s time but for their skill too, but then this means they work less hours if they’re good. Catch 22 for the groom.
- Full livery is too cheap
- Younger people seem to not be efficient and some have a bad work ethic
- Older people and women (more likely to be grooms) have babies and can’t return (like me)
Myself and our last groom had a baby and it meant we had to cut down / leave. I now do 3 mornings a week which is a real stretch and I don’t make any money because I have to pay a babysitter. Having a family and grooming does not work. I really miss working because the yard was my entire life, but that was not a normal existence and I had to get a life lol.
The money is ok but the hours are low and I totally understand why, because a yard with facilities is ridiculously expensive to run and the livery doesn’t pay enough for staff. This is an industry problem and won’t change unless everyone changes.
I have to do all tasks at speed and very efficiently to keep my hours down. As well as not being attractive to employees (who wants minimum wage and low hours?) it is also a SKILL. Mucking out fast is a skill, the organisation you need is a skill, being on the ball is a skill, handling horses is a skill. Livery fees don’t pay for this level of skill. As someone said before, you’re not paying so much for someone’s time but for their skill too, but then this means they work less hours if they’re good. Catch 22 for the groom.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
If the problem is the cost of labour in the equine industry - then why are we still doing things in such a labour-intensive way?
Agriculture is at the forefront of technology - why can the equine industry not mechanise/reduce the need for repetitive manual labour in things like mucking out, and poo picking?
For example, you could have sliding stable partitions allowing a tractor to clear the barn of dung. Yes, you might lose some bedding in comparison with manual mucking out - but the saving in labour time would repay that.
Mechanising/minimising the labour to allow grooms to use their skills fully (checking, handling, caring for the horses themselves) would be a winning situation.
Agriculture is at the forefront of technology - why can the equine industry not mechanise/reduce the need for repetitive manual labour in things like mucking out, and poo picking?
For example, you could have sliding stable partitions allowing a tractor to clear the barn of dung. Yes, you might lose some bedding in comparison with manual mucking out - but the saving in labour time would repay that.
Mechanising/minimising the labour to allow grooms to use their skills fully (checking, handling, caring for the horses themselves) would be a winning situation.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
That's a good point. I know of a stables which deep beds for a week, clears the stable in one sweep with a machine which they believe is the only one in use in the UK, and daily sprays in clean straw from a Heston bale with another machine designed for that job.
There are, I believe, stables on the continent where they open a hatch in the floor and muck out onto a conveyor belt.
.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Yes we need a change of attitude — i have a poo hoover which increases efficiency of poo picking immeasurably- and i struggle to get anyone to use it but me - farmers love gadgets horsy people seem to think they are scary evil things
mariew
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing it's because it would need some investment and it's just easier to pay cheap labour. Also you would have to use minimal bedding which I suspect many owners would not accept. Unless.yards.get much bigger I suspect there won't be economies of scale to make it worthwhile. Might be wrong.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
I also think the screen generations coming through now are not interested in riding or working with horses by guess even on here the demographic will be and increasing age of contribution. There seem to be an awful lot of over 55 contributors with adult children. and not as many young people joining. Shows are failing due to fewer young people, exhibitor numbers are down everywhere. There are few to none young people hanging around asking to work for rides and now if you have a spare horse you have to pay to have it ridden. There are still a few but those addicted often have their own but work long and hard to keep them so need help that is no longer available as vocational jobs are badly paid, physically and mentally demanding, and in many cases those youngsters that have spent their younger years gawping at screens are neither fit and strong enough nor willing to get wet and cold for a pittance
rara007
Well-Known Member
We’re fully staffed now but it’s been a struggle. We’re a tiny private yard so the work is sole charge, so many can’t actually handle a horse. Most days there’s other people about be that ground workers or us working the horses but it’s pretty lonely day in day out I think. We’ve been lucky to have a couple of full time very long term grooms but after the most recent died (not related to work!) we’ve been piecing together rotas. We do keep them on doing ‘other’ jobs during the summer if they want so it’s not as seasonal as you’d expect (5 horses in work from light- medium, 3 retired ponies).
Seems to be a never ending problem in this area, has been for a good 5 years with freelancers turning away lots of work and a few well known yards with constantly running adverts.
Seems to be a never ending problem in this area, has been for a good 5 years with freelancers turning away lots of work and a few well known yards with constantly running adverts.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Sorry tangent warning!!!
Ps. Think about smallies OOH
Before I changed to this company I did the maths and 1 last min locum vet shift a month and working a 30 hour part-time week as a groom and I’d have been better off than a 50hr a week small animal branch head vet, which I went into in the first place as couldn’t believe the pay gap between sectors. Frustrating when your reason for working is to pay for the horses…
Ps. Think about smallies OOH
Keith_Beef
Novice equestrian, accomplished equichetrian
I saw this when I had a tour of the IFCE, commonly known as the "Cadre Noir".
Boxes back on to a narrow alley, below which a conveyor carries muck to another perpendicular conveyor, that collects from parallel rows of boxes. The collector carried the muck to a "lifter" that can be moved a little too distribute the muck on the muck pile.
Hard feed is kept in space above the boxes and some machinery drops an individualized ration at programmed times down a chute into each horse's feed trough.
https://www.ifce.fr/en/cadre-noir/
Last edited:
Otherwise
Well-Known Member
I would think with so many riding schools closing down and lessons getting more expensive there probably are fewer young people getting involved with horses. Riding schools can't allow work for rides now and the days of kids being left unsupervised on a yard for a whole day are long gone.
Cecilrides
Active Member
Just a thought , and this is probably a product of yards having insufficient grazing land to do anything else, but what has always struck me about the typical yard/livery set up is that a lot of manual labour and associated cost is created by the way the horses are managed, ie being stabled either overnight or during the day. if you in theory had a set up where they were out 24-7 (may not work for all horses granted and would have some requiring box rest) with appropriate shelter, you would have the poo clearance which could be managed with eg a poo Hoover (and other land maintenance of course) somewhere to stand in if necessary to be fed if couldn’t be done in field, got ready for riding , farrier etc, perhaps the time and costs of labour in vasts amount of mucking out could be reduced and time spent instead by employees checking, tending to and exercising horses (if that was included in the package), and the financial savings passed onto the wages Of those working there. If that was possible land wise, I don’t know if owners would go for it as it’s not a traditional set up, and maybe wouldn’t see the worth of paying a full livery fee for that. but I think there could be a great benefit for an owner knowing the health and care of their horses was being more individually attended to if those working on yard had more time to do that . I have probably missed out some considerations, you would have increased land maintenance costs , how to manage the turn out (groups, pairs, individuals) . Interested to hear what people think and whether that kind of set up could in theory make a caring for horses job more attractive. Maybe would just depend on what owners are willing to pay , and tbh that seems to be the problem already, that already it’s too little to be able to pay grooms a decent wage. At least there might be a bit less shovelling shit though.
Sossigpoker
Well-Known Member
I see the same lack of work ethic in the younger people I've had working at my house (cleaning etc). They don't want to do the work but want to be paid. It's embarrassing having to say to them that it doesn't look like the shower or toilet hasn't been cleaned, it's just easier to say I won't be needing them again. I see the same attitudes at yard work- they just don't want to work hard. And I guess if mummy and/or daddy is funding your life, there's really no need to really work and you can get away with blaming someone else every time it doesn't work out. Favourite thing I heard was "i was told I'd be riding but I was just shovelling shit". Said by a school leaver who felt they were too good to muck out.
I despair.
I despair.
daydreamer
Well-Known Member
It is like that where I keep my youngster. Most of the horses there are retired but there are some ridden straight from the fields. There is one groom for all the horses (about 20). I think about 3 of the land owners horses spend days stabled so there is that but otherwise it is just driving around checking them twice a day and doing any rug changes needed etc. One of the farm hands/groundsman does the poo picking using a tractor with a hoover and in the winter each field just gets a round bale of hay as and when needed. It is definitely less labour intensive than the typical livery yard turn out/bring in/muck out/haynet regime.
But I imagine it is a bit boring/lonely at times. I've been there about 3 years now and we have been through about 4 grooms, most only seem to stay about a year.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I think this is more due to the cost of living (my POV is that of a resident of the South East by the way). A lot of the older generation have had their time to have children, or time to make some savings, are more likely to have an OH or a lower mortgage, plus will be further up the career ladder (I understand this is a sweeping generalisation). The fact of the matter is that this generation, on the whole, would have to choose between a reasonable quality of life and having a horse - that is the situation I am in as I am currently saving for a property. I couldn't afford a horse right now unless I fully DIY'ed it which is seriously scarce in my area, and then if I did I couldn't afford transport and entry fees etc to support the local clinic and shows, and I earn about £15k more than the average salary for my section of the UK. It is wider realised now that to meet the cost of living you have to bat for the better paid jobs.. and thus grooming falls by the wayside as a potential career.
It's not about being fit, nor strong enough nor screen time - I worked all throughout my teenage years at a riding school just for rides. It's more that you have to make a choice about building a future vs indulging in your hobby.. and not all of us have the privilege of a safety net in our parents. I will look for a share once I am recovered fully from my hip surgery, and I will fully expect to pay for the opportunity to ride, if someone were to offer that to me in exhange for doing some jobs I would jump at the chance.
ETA: Just to give you an idea of the prices for riding in my three 'local' riding schools, £75 per half hour private on one classical yard, £130 for a 1 hour beach ride at another that does trips out rather than lessons, and £60 for a private half hour or the same for a group hour at the third which is catered more to children. They won't allow volunteers for rides due to insurances.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Adding to this - I’m convinced that employers don’t want to pay their grooms a good wage because they’d much rather rely on volunteers ime.
As regards your comment on the average age of people here, I do think it’s a biased sample as young people will be (rightfully) less keen to reveal their age.
Working for rides isn’t a possibility anymore in RS/liveries. No one is willing to let you ride for free no matter how many yard duties you put in; everyone (here at least) asks at least 15 quid a day even when looking for an experienced rider to school their horse for them.
As regards your comment on the average age of people here, I do think it’s a biased sample as young people will be (rightfully) less keen to reveal their age.
Cecilrides
Active Member
that is interesting. Yes true I suppose you wouldn’t really have much ‘yard’ atmosphere, and if jobs were minimal to only require one groom for that many horses. I wonder if their salary is still at minimum wage.
Muddy unicorn
Well-Known Member
I don’t think the H&H forum is a particularly representative sample of the horse riding population though. A forum like this is necessarily going to be skewed towards an older age group and, with a few exceptions, most younger people who start posting aren’t made to feel that welcome.
My daughter volunteered and worked at riding schools for years during secondary school as did many of her friends. You only have to look at Instagram and TikTok for a few minutes to find hundreds and thousands of young riders. But whenever anyone posts here asking for advice about how to get into a horsey career everyone rushes to tell them not to do it and to get a well-paid non-horsey job instead.
Wages in most of the industry are an issue, there are a lot of terrible employers around and a large number of flaky young people drifting from job to job. However there are also good employers and hard-working, dedicated employees. If yards want to retain good grooms they need to make them want to stay - give them proper training and opportunities and some kind of career path - if the job is just shovelling shit with no end in sight why would someone bright and ambitious stay for long?