Should racing two year olds be banned?

chrisritch said:
No it shouldn't.

From working in racing very few of the 2 year olds make it to the track in their first year. Bear in mind the trainer earns a living through them so it would be in his best interest to take the welfare of the animals to heart.
Click to expand...

The trainer is only interested in the welfare for a couple of years though, isn't s/he chrisritch? The long term welfare of the horse isn't considered at all, is it, or surely no-one would work a horse of 18 months? I suspect if I looked for it the evidence would fairly clear that starting that young takes its toll heavily in later years.
 
Last edited:
noodle_ said:
i agree with you OP :)
Click to expand...

But I don't know what we should do :o

The industry employs thousands of people in stables, breeding, betting, racecourses. There would be a whole year when no horses would need to be bred at all and any that were bred would add directly to the numbers slaughtered simply for being too slow. If waiting a year adds so much to the costs then many jobs could be lost - stables jobs are already bottom end of the pay scales.

If we can't make it worldwide, would we simply be putting another great British/Irish industry on the back foot while the rest of the world ignore the welfare issues, as has happened to the UK pig breeders while the rest of Europe delay the welfare reforms that we have already made our farmers take on?

I'm unhappy at backing 18 month old thoroughbreds, but what if the alternative was that they would not be bred at all? Would they prefer to live and be backed that young, or never to have been born? Is that even a sensible question - whether a horse that has never lived would "prefer" to be born?

How much does it actually matter if they are knackered by the time they are in their early teens, or before, provided they are humanely put down and not left in pain? It feels wrong, but is it?
 
Last edited:
dominobrown said:
Also out of the ex-racers I have re-schooled the jumping horses are sooo much easier. They are generally more laid back and have more 'common sense'.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this, it fits my experience of retraining racers too.

Which is interesting, because almost all the stallions are flat racers because almost all the male jumpers are geldings. Suggesting, I think, that the early start has at least some impact on the temperament.
 
My view is :

Back babies and race them at 2, will ensure a high percent of them will be dog food by 6 at the most. If its not thrown out because its not fast enoug, It dies on the track

Its wrong to make an animal work when its bones - tendons are forming.
:(:(:(. Just for human greed and pleasure

We have an ex racer here
 
Last edited:
Leviathan said:
My view is :

Back babies and race them at 2, will ensure a high percent of them will be dog food by 6 at the most. If its not thrown out because its not fast enoug, It dies on the track

Its wrong to make an animal work when its bones - tendons are forming.
:(:(:(. Just for human greed and pleasure

We have an ex racer here
Click to expand...

Not acording to the vet talk on performance problems in the horse I have just been to seriously interesting stuff .
 
Goldenstar said:
Not acording to the vet talk on performance problems in the horse I have just been to seriously interesting stuff .
Click to expand...

Seen enough documentaries on the subject. Don't care about vet talk.


A bucket load of horses feet from race horses and such speaks volumes to me. God it was gross and sad
 
Yes I agree that racing babies is wrong, sadly the game is about racing juveniles, light weights short distances and getting black type as soon as possible. Having said that it takes a 100 losers before you get your winner. We are wasting hundreds of young immature horses to get to the cream of the crop. God knows what the answer is. I love racing and I love thoroughbreds but as I am getting older I am wincing when I watch 2 year olds racing.
 
I am not into racing so I not going this from a pro racing POV it's just the science is not pointing to that its being used that causes the injuries it's being trained in the wrong way and minor issues not being recognised quickly and unwillingness to reduce work even if it's for a short time when the horse says that what it needs .
Also did a great bit on the wind and respiration issues and particularily on the soft palate and the knew tie forward op for this very interesting.
 
I've been vehemently opposed to 2yr olds running since I spent a winter backing and riding away babies who hadn't even turned 2. They were the cream of the crop as well, all went on to top trainers, and had generally gone through the sale ring for crazy money - it simply didn't compute with me that there were such high hopes for them, but no consideration at all for their obvious physical immaturity.The first lot that turned up the first year shocked me - they were such babies that they still had fluffy baby tails - and we had to get on and ride them. I've never been so unhappy to do something horse related in my life.

We backed 24 yearlings that winter, and only 6 of them saw a racetrack. I shudder to think what happened to the others.
 
As per my thread last week, I definitely disagree with any horse/pony being sat on before it is three.
It can have lots of daily handling but to put pressure and any weight on those still forming bones is not civilised, especially when we know what damage it does, and especially when so many are killed just for the sake of mans pleasure and making money out of their lives.
I don't object to animals serving man out of necessity (although some would say no animal should suffer for man) but if it is purely for our pleasure and monetary gain, I feel very uncomfortable about it. I get that same feeling about hunting but that's for another forum:p
The only niggle I have about working horses so young is that - well in the wild they are up and running for their lives from the moment they can walk, so that will put pressure on their tiny bodies and wild horses tend to be much toughter than our fine bred TB's - but then nature is a different case and no one is sat on their backs:rolleyes:.
 
I don't agree with racing 2yo's either. If it is insisted upon then the 30month limit would be more appropriate. But would you then see more of an influx of Australian or New Zealand bred stock that are then 6months older than our own?

From the studies that I have read there has been a very divided set of ideas about how the body grows and strengthens. Some say that the younger you start a horse and condition it's bones and tendons to work the stronger they become - but at the cost of the joint. Others say that horses broken and worked when older are more likely to break down or break a bone due to not having had the conditioning work over the years. Here we are talking about backing yearlings vs 5-6yo's. The ones that are backed inbetween tend to survive longer.

Some horses show their best form at 2yo. One such horse was Wootten Bassett. He won all 5 of his races and over £500k as a 2yo. As a 3yo? Bloomin useless (in comparison to the year before) So he was retired to stud. If they had waited until he was 3yo would they have got that explosion of short lived talent? It's the chance they took.

As to there not being many, if any entire's that go jumping it's not because we don't want to handle older entire males it's because they generally become too protective of 'themselves' and become too careful over their jumps thus making them slower in the air - more show jumper-ish if you will. A gelding doesn't care about crashing his crown jewels through a fence but a stallion? Nah! They are sensible!

There are a few exceptions but they really are few and far between. Alderbrook being one - though he only raced over hurdles until he was 6yo.

From my own experience of working in NH racing we have had far more career ending injuries in the horses that didn't get backed until they were 5 or 6yo than we have with the ex-flat jobs. On the flip side the ones that raced at 2 rarely raced past 8 or 9yo whereas the NH bred horses that were started as 3/4yo's keep going. We have a couple out pointing at 14yo and still going strong with no major injuries between them.

There are 2 sides to every coin but personally I don't like racing 2yos. Yes back them in the autumn of their 2yo year for a 3yo career but I don't like seeing the real babies being broken and trained before they are officially 2yo.
 
I think my suggestion of moving it to slowly back to 30 months etc would be the most realistic but as cptrayes said, it is pointless that just Britain does it. We need the rest of the world to do it too, however (no offence meant) some countries are not as 'big' on animal welfare as us, so I am not sure it will ever happen.
 
I was really surprised to see how "mature" some of these looked at UNDER 2yo compared to my rising 2yo...

(Posted by JT on another thread) http://www.edunlop.com/horses-in-training.php#4

TB's mature a hell of a lot quicker than any other breed I know but I don't think that is an excuse.

The national Veteran Horse Society's champion the past few years is a 28yo ex-racer called Zankino. Is she just lucky?

I agree that the age, management, industry needs to change. It's all a bit embarrassing if you ask me... grown men betting on baby horses to win in a race they may well never finish. You know deep down there is guilt.

The industry wouldn't suffer that much I don't think... there would be a period of time where more focus would go on training older horses but tradition is hard to break. Not impossible though!!!
 
Last edited:
The US racing industry is having to deal with some very tough questions about drugs, prize money and breakdowns just now, and it looks like the realisation is dawning that no one wants to go to a race track to see a horse die. Might open a bit of a doorway into the whole situation with two-year-olds.

Then again, I'm an optimist.
 
cptrayes said:
There would be a whole year when no horses would need to be bred at all and any that were bred would add directly to the numbers slaughtered simply for being too slow. If waiting a year adds so much to the costs then many jobs could be lost - stables jobs are already bottom end of the pay scales.
Click to expand...
I actually don't think a one off delay would affect breeding that year, you still need them coming through but delay starting. I think it would have to be phased, start with some races and gradually add more races where the minimum age was 2 1/2 or 3 for eg.

The fact that unless it was world wide is perhaps the biggest mountain to climb. Many countries see no problem with starting 2 year olds or younger in general and it's deep in the culture.

The assessment of maturity is a long standing argument which the racing industry have defended and done lots of studies on to prove their case. I am not sure if they include mental maturity though but I believe they use specific bones when assessing the age the growth plates close and not the whole skeleton. This clashes with the Ranger Piece linked earlier.

The question of 'use' to strengthen bones and bodies is an interesting one. Starting a youngster, feeding it high calorie feed, working it hard and racing it hard is very different to starting later and having allowed more time of voluntary movement and more turnout once in training imo. I believe it's the lower level constant movement that builds basic body and strength in a youngster at a pace the body copes with. Perhaps I am wrong but I do think the current system is very open to over stressing joints, bones and mental state/temperament. The youngsters are hit hard from every angle with practices completely opposite to their evolutionary needs. Studies can be done/designed to prove almost any point you wish to make sadly.
 
The world-wide adoption of the 30mo would eventually become standard practice, it just has to begin... Somewhere! Here is as good as any... :)
 
I agree TH. UK leading the way as it has so many times in the past would be fantasitc but a very big ask to go it alone.

I do think reducing the number of 2 year old races gradually might be a way... the industry has time to adjust.
 
amandap said:
I agree TH. UK leading the way as it has so many times in the past would be fantasitc but a very big ask to go it alone.

I do think reducing the number of 2 year old races gradually might be a way... the industry has time to adjust.
Click to expand...

Punters could help... Just don't bet on 2yo races.

I don't think it's a big ask... If you were to pitch the racing of babies against other "sports" around the world that we look at in disgust... How does it compare?

Also, the way to do it would be to stop international entries into UK debut races unless they are over the 30mo. Or, zero prize money for 2yo races. Lol who would enter???

Best way to do it is public pressure groups, big media campaigns... Panorama... Etc... It could be done if the was enough momentum behind it. There would be the usual hilarious "public know nothing attitude" from the traditionalists and then the tree-hugger massive will eventually win out as usual :)
 
Last edited:
Punters are gamblers. Yes the occasional gambler might stop betting on 2 year old races but the true gamblers may well not. There are also many professional gamblers. How is gambling connected to money in racing itself? Sponsorship, but what else? I'm not talking of corruption but legitimate ways gambling is involved directly in racing. Surely it is more of a satellite industry?
I do think gambling has to pay a price in any changes as it benefits from and is built on racing in this instance.

Throughout the world horses are started young in sport and leisure. In Europe I understand many sport horses (dressage for eg) are started at 2 ish. I do think there is some difference in the average leisure horse to a sports horse as the intensity of training and performance is far greater in sports.

There are also the moral and ethical questions which are harder to justify now we no longer need horses as machines for production of food, transport etc.
Horses have become entertainment animals essentially and businesses have built on that rather than a necessity to our progress and daily life.
 
My big bugbear with flat racing is the 2yo races, I absolutely hate it, the wastages caused make me sick, especially when I look at my own 2yos :(

Sadly there is so much money involved, I think it would be very hard to get anything done about it.
 
Yes it should be banned. I kept my horse on a pre-training yard (ie, the babies being broken) for a while and I hated what I saw. They were brought in from the field as babies, saddles on and out on the gallops within a few weeks. All of them were so weak, it was horrible. Maybe it was just the yard I was on but it's no life when the only time you get out of an 11.5ft x 11.5ft box is for 20 mins on the gallops each day, and maybe another 20 mins on the walker.

Very sad and cruel IMHO.
 
I don't believe the majority of people involved in racing are rich. Those who do the daily work are generally not well paid, only those who reach the heights of stardom get good remumeration as far as I can see. This is one of the drivers... money, personal reputation and social standing. Ok a good amount of owners are rich but it is an interest to them not a job to live.
 
Very interesting contributions, thanks folks (especially EKW, thankyou, your knowledge from working in the industry I particulary respect).

Goldenstar the problem I have with the soft palate operation is that I have had a young horse with displacement of the soft palate, three, who used to stop abruptly, choke, cough it back into place and then carry on. I was told that he would almost certainly grow out of it, and by five it was completely gone. So they are probably congratulating themselves on curing something that would cure itself in a four year old anyway.

Hardly anyone support it, it seems, and I think it will happen, a ban, but I don't know how far in the future, and I worry that some time after that riding horses at all might be banned. Hopefully not in my lifetime.
 
Last edited:
amandap said:
I don't believe the majority of people involved in racing are rich. Those who do the daily work are generally not well paid, only those who reach the heights of stardom get good remumeration as far as I can see. This is one of the drivers... money, personal reputation and social standing. Ok a good amount of owners are rich but it is an interest to them not a job to live.
Click to expand...

Well no, I don't know the ratio of rich people vs poor people in racing... All I know is that money makes this world turn around in one form or another... The suppliers, the owners, the gambling etc etc. My uncle was a jockey, certainly some of my family are in racing in one form or another and I wouldn't call any of them "rich"... So it begs the question, if its not money... What is it? I can understand the joy horses bring, the winning, the lifestyle, social aspects etc but surely none of this warrants racing gangly unbalanced babes and pitching them on the racetrack only to see so many fall...

Not only that... My uncle broke every bone in his body. My dad fell a few times and gave up in his teens but uncle continued, his daughter races now sometimes... I'm sure many other jockeys on this forum will say how poor they are... So, what is the attraction?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top