Should racing two year olds be banned?

skint1 said:
an excellent post, and so TRUE. I know a few people who took on 3yo ex racers who were weedy and with the attention span of a gnat by time those horses were 4 even they were much more substantial physically and mentally.

I'm on my phone so difficult but has anyone read a recent paper that I've heard about which outlines how the early start can help prevent injuries on the track? Id love to know how that conclusion was arrived at.
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Yes I do, I posted it here maybe last week... Let me just dig it out...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=590029
 
Some of this is far, far worse than I ever imagined. Lunging a yearling daily, never mind fast, as preparation for sale :( It hardly bears thinking about.

I would start a petition, but there is no point banning it in this country, the industry will only lose out as horses go overseas to race instead.

We've done it to our pig farmers. They have had all the additional costs of the new EU welfare standards for a couple of years now, while other countries have yet to implement them. Please only buy British bred pork, it's got it on the label.

There's no answer to this horse welfare nightmare at the moment, is there?
 
skint1 said:
I'm on my phone so difficult but has anyone read a recent paper that I've heard about which outlines how the early start can help prevent injuries on the track? Id love to know how that conclusion was arrived at.
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It probably does, but if you are only interested in injuries to the age of 3 or 4, the research, in welfare terms, is woefully lacking.

I know that there is certainly evidence that fast work produces stronger bones, I don't know the stuff about soft tissue, if there is any but I don't see why it would not be true. For a start, it means the weaker ones break down before they even reach the track, so the ones that get there are by definition going to suffer fewer racing injuries.
 
tallyho! said:
Mithras, your posts make me feel so sad :(. Nothing to do you with you by the way but the thought that tbs are bred to break down almost. Such a waste. This is one reason why I did not buy a tb when I was looking for a new horse last year. Don't get me wrong, I still think many tbs go on to successful careers in other areas but the trend is plain to see.

Isn't speed something to do with the c-allele? That's what breeders for flat are chasing?

Sad to thinks the old Godolphin and Turk lines are disappearing... Just a moment in history.
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I think its sad too. If you read about the history of racing and what good horses used to be able to do - mature fast enough to be competitive in a Dewhurst in the second half of their 2yo career, compete in a 2000 Guineas in May the following year then win a Derby and a St Leger, and the next year contest the Ascot Gold Cup and Champion Stakes...

I'm not a geneticist, so you are probably right about the C-allele. I just wish with all the money in the racing industry, there was more interest in avoiding the problems from inbreeding and on preserving the valuable outcross lines from the two other male founders that we still have left, and on preserving them in the female lines too. The Ahonoora line is fabulously talented and adaptable, but is going to be lost soon because theres only a few male stallions carrying it on in comparison to the Eclipse lines from the Darley Arabian. And Godolphin is all but gone, with its good bone and quality...not due to lack of racing ability but due to not being quite so fast or quick maturing at two.

Its all such short term thinking in racing right now - any good breeder will tell you that to produce good stock, you have to think 3 or 4 generations ahead. In racing, they are literally thinking 1 or 2 or 3 years ahead for commercial viability, and that now means fast maturing sprint or miler bred stock.

If the offspring is a success at two, it doesn't really matter if it breaks down, because it will be popular with breeders and investors who want quick maturing stock.

And as for the American states which allow racing on medication - just awful, total disaster.

You still get big, powerful, almost stocky TBs but they are becoming rarer. I remember riding out a massive chestnut 17.2 which actually had feather around its legs! Compare and contrast with a tiny sprint bred horse, and they're almost like a different breed.

Apologies for boring people and droning on. I am not expert on TB breeding, just fascinated by it.
 
cptrayes said:
It probably does, but if you are only interested in injuries to the age of 3 or 4, the research, in welfare terms, is woefully lacking.

I know that there is certainly evidence that fast work produces stronger bones, I don't know the stuff about soft tissue, if there is any but I don't see why it would not be true. For a start, it means the weaker ones break down before they even reach the track, so the ones that get there are by definition going to suffer fewer racing injuries.
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Certainly in human athletes, the prevalent thinking now is that runners have to start early in order to develop the strength in their weight bearing bones and muscles, and also the requisite motor skills in the brain. If they leave it til they are mature adults, its generally too late to make the catch up to mature level. Hence the Kenyans and Ethiopians are famed for running to school as children, while the cossetted Western Europeans on their playstations are always playing catch up. Even in 25 years since Coe, Ovett and Cram were winning Olympic medals, you can see the decline in talent coming through in the sport, and most athletics coaches agree this is due to lack of activity as children.
 
Thanks Mithras - yes, of course it was Hector Protector who went to Japan - senile moment :o

Interesting discussions - my horse as per above post, was raced young and broke down eventing. Bone chips were found in the fetlock which were causing lameness and were put down to have been caused by hard work before the bone was mature and displaced when hitting a show jump.

That said they were removed and he's been competition sound ever since. I think he was lucky that he was a pants racehorse or the damage would have been far worse.

Totally agree that working immature horses is wrong, but like most wouldn't want to see the industry move abroad due to the UK toeing the line where others flaunt the rules which has happened in so many areas thanks to the EU and our British tendency to conform.
 
cptrayes said:
Some of this is far, far worse than I ever imagined. Lunging a yearling daily, never mind fast, as preparation for sale :( It hardly bears thinking about.

I would start a petition, but there is no point banning it in this country, the industry will only lose out as horses go overseas to race instead.

We've done it to our pig farmers. They have had all the additional costs of the new EU welfare standards for a couple of years now, while other countries have yet to implement them. Please only buy British bred pork, it's got it on the label.

There's no answer to this horse welfare nightmare at the moment, is there?
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Also fur farming...banning it in this country has simply concentrated it in countries like China which have far worse welfare standards. You could make an arguement for it being less cruel to encourage a welfare-friendly fur trade in this country...

I don't know what the solution is. We are rapidly reaching the state of affairs with the TB racehorse that soon a high proportion of them will be incapable of staying sound, or racing over more than 7 furlongs. Thank goodness for NH racing but I'd love to see longer distance flat racing resurgent - it needs to become more popular with the general public.

ps Cp_trayes, I am not trying to target your posts! I hope you don't think that - Its just that you seem to post on exactly the subjects I am interested in!
 
No problem Mithras, this thread has been fascinating, especially your depth of knowledge. Your argument carries to medical research on animals too. I would far rather that it was done at Huntingdon Life Sciences than in India or China.

There's no right answer on this one but I am both pleased and disturbed that even most people within racing can see it's gone wrong, but none of us can see a practical way out.
 
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I know no-one wants to see this again... yes, I know it's by PETA but I want to put it up so that those who do not think there is anything wrong with racing babies can see how wrong it really is. I realise the footage shown could happen to any horse at any age but is more prevalent in the young.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOOiixz2zFE
 
tallyho! said:
I know no-one wants to see this again... yes, I know it's by PETA but I want to put it up so that those who do not think there is anything wrong with racing babies can see how wrong it really is. I realise the footage shown could happen to any horse at any age but is more prevalent in the young.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOOiixz2zFE
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I was very upset to watch that but did so for education. And here in the UK, we have the "Breeze Up" Sales for 2yos.

I'm not against 2yo racing and backing of yearlings per se. But there is a huge difference between racing mature, physically strong 2yos in the late summer and autumn in preparation for their future careers, and breeding horses purely for fast maturing speed, not soundness. Its always been recognised that the 2 yos winning races like the Brocklesby and even some of the Royal Ascot 2 yo group races are very unlikely to go on and do much else in their careers.
 
Rebels said:
Foal prep for some is 1/2 a bag of prep mix, 20-40 minutes on the walker and up to an hour walking in hand. Yearlings, 45 minutes fast lunge work, 1- 1 1/2 on the walker and sales ring training. The amount of food they get given is astonishing and the change in them? Scruffy babies grow almost a hand within 8 weeks and come out gleaming lumps of muscle. And no one stud can change because then their horses look backwards in comparison and they need to look fit and muscled as they will be backed almost straight away. That to me is where your soundness issues start. Then you can get into racehorse sound ie sound in gallop only...
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What I can't understand is with that amount of food going into those babies and growth "almost a hand within 8 weeks," how are they avoiding developmental orthopaedic diseases at an epidemic level within the industry?
 
RutlandH2O said:
What I can't understand is with that amount of food going into those babies and growth "almost a hand within 8 weeks," how are they avoiding developmental orthopaedic diseases at an epidemic level within the industry?
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Yes, imo this is a big problem with relying on looks to gauge maturity. These diets are also stacking up gut, behavioural and metabolic problems.
 
cptrayes said:
There's no right answer on this one but I am both pleased and disturbed that even most people within racing can see it's gone wrong, but none of us can see a practical way out.
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I don't think there will be unless there is an agreement and will that the face/look, priorities and aims of racing have to change.
 
Fortunately, I guessed (and was able to verify by 'scrubbing' through the video on YouTube) that this would show horses suffering catastrophic injury and therefore was able to avoid watching it. The last time I saw something like that on Channel 4 Racing, when Percase broke a leg, it was so upsetting I got palpitations. :(

tallyho! said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOOiixz2zFE
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Oh well, "at least they died doing what they love." (Or does that only apply when several horses are running together?)
 
RutlandH2O said:
What I can't understand is with that amount of food going into those babies and growth "almost a hand within 8 weeks," how are they avoiding developmental orthopaedic diseases at an epidemic level within the industry?
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Most of them do get development problem. I went to college to learn about racehorse management, part of which was sales prep. I'd say all of the foals were showing signs of open knees, some more than others. The racing yard I worked in, mostly two and three year olds, I reckon 90% had sore shins from trotting on roads. They trotted them for miles. On the plus side (albeit a small one) the breaking in wasn't at all rushed and they were long-lined for miles before anyone got on.

There was a filly there, even now 22 years later it still makes me cry to think how screwed up she was. She went back to her owners in the end to be a broodmare :rolleyes: as she was just too far gone mentally to ride anymore.

She wasn't even three. :(
 
I'd rather my horse have broken its leg in a race and been dealt with immediatly than him doing it in the field and being there a while...
 
OCD, Wobblers? Those are catastrophic conditions costing incalculable amounts of investment in time and money. So, we can assume that racing TBs are a dime a dozen, easy come, easy go. A vet I know spent several years in Australia on a TB stud. There were 500 breeding mares, of which 300 foaled each year. She never got to see another horse of another breed in her whole time in Oz. And that's just one stud.
 
I'd be interested to see the statistics if there are any, I would particularly like to know how many that go into racing at an early age and come out without an injury of some sort but that data would probably be difficult to obtain.

I actually received my tb's clinical notes from birth to the January he turned 3 from Rossdales in Newmarket yesterday, it made for eye-opening reading, all 3 pages of it! And this was just a list of treatments, no further info. He was first x-rayed as a yearling. Needless to say he didn't make it to the racecourse.
 
pinklilly said:
I'd be interested to see the statistics if there are any, I would particularly like to know how many that go into racing at an early age and come out without an injury of some sort but that data would probably be difficult to obtain.

I actually received my tb's clinical notes from birth to the January he turned 3 from Rossdales in Newmarket yesterday, it made for eye-opening reading, all 3 pages of it! And this was just a list of treatments, no further info. He was first x-rayed as a yearling. Needless to say he didn't make it to the racecourse.
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Not really. I just typed in the data you were looking for and even Wikipedia came up with some goods.

Still, not a pretty read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racehorse_injuries
 
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competitiondiva said:
That video was very disturbing.
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The image of that baby is etched in my mind forever like a broken record... can you imagine someone would actually say "oh, nevermind it died doing what it loved, at least it didn't do it in a field"?

I guess that's just how some people would justify it. I guess the thought of not actually putting them in that situation in the first place never crossed anyone's mind....
 
wench said:
What would you rather have... your horse seen to immediately... or having to wait until someone found him, then having to wait until the vet/knackerman could get there...
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In this context, I.e. the breakdown of a racing 2yo, I would actually rather it happened in a field. I could live with myself knowing it was an accident at play.

On the track, it suffered the stress of running first, then it suffered the breakdown and there we end its life knowing if it wasn't for it being so young and at higher risk of such an injury, it would probably never have happened.

In both scenarios the horse suffers.
 
wench said:
What would you rather have... your horse seen to immediately... or having to wait until someone found him, then having to wait until the vet/knackerman could get there...
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I think the point is that focusing on breeding certain lines that have precocious speed and inherent forelimb weakness combined with feeding and exercising for fast growth and development means it is more likely to happen at work or in a field.
 
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