Should racing two year olds be banned?

[Rebels]

I agree with Wench in that if a horse is going to break a leg then best in front of a vet who can dispatch quickly which i think was the meaning of that comment.
Everything that goes through Tattersalls has an exhaustive list of xrays done before the sales. Basically all leg joints. It is also wind tested straight after the sale hence the need to fast lunge in prep as they are galloped for this. This is required for insurance. Thereafter you lose little if it breaks as its insured. Ive known horses being put into training purely because its worth more them breaking down, being PTS and insurance paying out than it is to race it. Im talking the badly conformed ones. No insurance would have meant an earlier PTS. Better or worse?

 

[AnaV]

They are not fully developed at two therefore the age to race should be raised. I had a two year old come to rest a month ago who had eight bone chips in one leg and a fracture in the other. Why? because he had been run into the ground as a one/ two year old. They are broken as yearlings. Raced when they are not even fully developed. One filly is four, will be five this year and from last year grew an extra 2 inches. Whilst someone I know whos husband is a trainer has one particular ex racer who came to her as a 3 year old at 14.2hh and has shot up to 16.2hh within the space of just over a year.

 

[Annie44]

British horseracing is steeped in tradition, & in flat racing every owner & trainer dreams of producing an "Epsom Derby Winner" very few geese turn into swans in this industry but this race can only be entered by 3yr olds & that is possibly the main reason for starting them at 2yrs old, although economics must play a big part as well.

 

[tallyho!]

I agree with Wench in that if a horse is going to break a leg then best in front of a vet who can dispatch quickly which i think was the meaning of that comment.
Everything that goes through Tattersalls has an exhaustive list of xrays done before the sales. Basically all leg joints. It is also wind tested straight after the sale hence the need to fast lunge in prep as they are galloped for this. This is required for insurance. Thereafter you lose little if it breaks as its insured. Ive known horses being put into training purely because its worth more them breaking down, being PTS and insurance paying out than it is to race it. Im talking the badly conformed ones. No insurance would have meant an earlier PTS. Better or worse?

Better or worse?

Put a yearling through the breeze-up where it's chances of breaking a leg increase exponentially, or, let it grow with its siblings where the chances of it breaking a leg are small.

 

[amandap]

I think the point is that focusing on breeding certain lines that have precocious speed and inherent forelimb weakness combined with feeding and exercising for fast growth and development means it is more likely to happen at work or in a field.

Plus their age and nature of the work. They are asked/encouraged to give their all... this is for entertainment not necessity remember.
That's a general comment btw not directed at you criso.

 

[BurlingtonBertie]

Absolutely agree. How can a horse be physically developed or ready to be backed and raced at 2?

 

[amandap]

I do think sports that involve animals are different to human sport. Human sports people can choose to push themselves as much as they want, train in ways they want etc. but animals really don't have a lot of choice except break down or become unmanageable when it gets too much. They just get on with what we do to them as best they can. We can comfort ourselves with a belief that they love it because they get excited and run fast and jump energetically but is this really a sign they love it? Could it be a sign they are on horsey alert for dangers and are just doing what horses do when they are on alert... run? I wonder if some do get used to it and cope well but I find it hard to say definitely they love it personally.

 

[pinklilly]

Mine was x-rayed several times on the right fore fetlock, also scans to the suspensory and shockwave treatment to this leg. I've only had access to this information as my insurance company wanted details of his previous history before he came to me and breeder agreed permission to release veterinary history.

 

[TarrSteps]

I don't know of a single non-racing horse person who believes that it is right to back racing thoroughbreds at 18 months and race them from 24 months old.

Is there any reason why this should not stop? It started way back in the days when horses were the machines of the day, and surely we have moved on from that?

Would the racing industry be much affected by the delay of a year in being able to race young TBs?

Would there be some benefits? Perhaps less of a desperate need to get them all born as close to January 1st as they can? Better resale values of failed racers because they have not been started so terribly young?

I have no idea if it would seriously impact flat racing. Obviously there would be some economic impact, but would it be disastrous?

In answer to the OP, it's not a product of "back in the day", in fact the emphasis on "early speed" is a very modern aspect of the sport and exists largely for economic reasons. Which goes to the second point, yes, it would have a huge impact in a number of areas, especially in places where racing is already suffering in the current economic climate. The tiny possible uptick in ex-racer prices would be relatively unimportant, especially as it wouldn't affect the sheer numbers of "left over" horses and it still wouldn't make them bred for sport. People who buy ex-racers want cheap horses not world class horses - no offence to anyone (some of my favourite horses are ex-racers).

I actually agree, I am not a fan of working horses that hard that young. I also probably have a few other issues with racing, which don't factor into this discussion, much as I enjoy the end result. But I don't kid myself, it's a business and business decisions will prevail.

 

[horseluver4eva]

Considering their still growing and developing... 3 year old is young enough never mind 2!

 

[Megibo]

Yes

 

[spookypony]

I do think sports that involve animals are different to human sport. Human sports people can choose to push themselves as much as they want, train in ways they want etc. but animals really don't have a lot of choice except break down or become unmanageable when it gets too much.

While I agree in principle, and feel that this places a greater ethical burden on people in their treatment of them, consider also the situation of elite sports prospects on the human side. Is it ethical to subject human children to the type of training that will allow them to become peak athletes by their late teens? How about certain performance arts: ballet, piano, and violin spring to mind; all ones where an early start and rigorous discipline is deemed necessary to future success at international level? Physical and psychological damage is quite common there, and also among those who are trying to play the catch-up game in their late teens. I suppose that a difference with humans is that one can ask them years later, when they are either burnt out, successful, or quite possibly both at the same time, if it was worthwhile. I don't think a horse has a concept of its "career".

 

[cptrayes]

People who buy ex-racers want cheap horses not world class horses - no offence to anyone (some of my favourite horses are ex-racers).

Even in the 1990s it didn't used to be that way. I used to buy one or two failed racers as 3 year olds from Doncaster every year. I paid between £950 and £2000 guineas for them. I schooled them on over 6 months to a year to be good Riding Club types and sold them for between £2,500 and £3,250.

Then suddenly I began to find it very difficult to resell them to the right people at a decent price that covered my costs (it was a hobby, not a job) because no-one wanted ex racers any more.

I haven't done one for many years now.

What changed? Did everyone begin to realise that they broke down young with stuff like spavins and navicular. What we are reading on this thread about how breeding has changed suggests that may be the root of it.

All I know is that today I could not sell a 4 year old failed flat racer who has done a couple of dressage tests and popped a few showjump courses for a fraction of what I used to sell them for (bearing in mind also what £2,500 was actually worth 20 years ago).

 

[amandap]

While I agree in principle, and feel that this places a greater ethical burden on people in their treatment of them, consider also the situation of elite sports prospects on the human side. Is it ethical to subject human children to the type of training that will allow them to become peak athletes by their late teens? How about certain performance arts: ballet, piano, and violin spring to mind; all ones where an early start and rigorous discipline is deemed necessary to future success at international level? Physical and psychological damage is quite common there, and also among those who are trying to play the catch-up game in their late teens. I suppose that a difference with humans is that one can ask them years later, when they are either burnt out, successful, or quite possibly both at the same time, if it was worthwhile. I don't think a horse has a concept of its "career".

I certainly agree with you re children and the Russian gymnasts in the 60's and 70's are a prime example. Olga Korbut et al were also pumped full of drugs which have had permanent effects. I also think even some adults can get on some sort of out of control tread mill and feel obliged to carry on.
These issues in humans are at least recognized though and frowned upon regarding children and steps to try and eliminate them taken. Humans generally have parents who hopefully are looking after their best interests but children are also naive and often want to be in the limelight and be the best but have no idea of possible long term consequences...

With animals these issues usually aren't even considered, they are just a means to an end and of little concern beyond that. The huge numbers of waste thoroughbreds in racing is a glaring example of this attitude. Even machines aren't wasted the way they are, a machine is made well and looked after so it can perform it's best. Loads aren't made so the best can be cherry picked and the rest sent to the crusher...

 

[Pale Rider]

Whichever way you cut it, what happens to horses in the racing industry is immoral and wrong. It's run by folk who have no care at all for the horses. People who are hands on, in the yards, are as exploited as the poor bloody horses. The industry relies on the feeling for horses these people have to perpetuate what goes on.

Obviously, there are all sorts of things which go on where horses come off pretty poorly. Dressage has its Rolker, reining has it's own problems with horses started young and knackered in a year. Many Tennessee walking horses, known for their distinctive gait and willing natures, are subjected to the cruel practice of soring. I remember some famous show jumpers getting done decades ago for putting hedgehog skins on jumps.

There must be a common denominator in all this, money? The urge to win? I don't know, human nature pehaps means these things will always go on and attempts made to justify it all.

It would be great to get a small victory and ban two yr olds being raced, I'd support a ban any day of the week, but, realistically there will be some big guns opposed to any change with the whole weight of the establishment behind them. Having said that unless someone tries, we'll never know.

So, what next?

 

[cptrayes]

So, what next?

I don't know PR, but after some of the stuff we've found out on this thread, which is much worse than I ever imagined, I can't see how it is possible that the Animal Welfare Act is not being broken.

I'm even beginning to wish that the animal activists weren't focussing so heavily on fox hunting, which has not improved the welfare of any animal much, if at all, and could turn their eyes towards these extremely young horses denied any normal kind of babyhood and crippled before they even reach physical maturity.

 

[dressedkez]

I don't know of a single non-racing horse person who believes that it is right to back racing thoroughbreds at 18 months and race them from 24 months old.

Is there any reason why this should not stop? It started way back in the days when horses were the machines of the day, and surely we have moved on from that?

Would the racing industry be much affected by the delay of a year in being able to race young TBs?

Would there be some benefits? Perhaps less of a desperate need to get them all born as close to January 1st as they can? Better resale values of failed racers because they have not been started so terribly young?

I have no idea if it would seriously impact flat racing. Obviously there would be some economic impact, but would it be disastrous?

I get really bored with this particular discussion (not original) CP (whatever) and your unsensitive and un founded comments on the Darlan death thing was just cruel really.

To start with I have a fit and healthy 14 year old TB who was started at 2, and is still doing a cracking job as a hunter / happy hacker, having won 5 points for us aged 7 - 10.

I have broken all sorts of horses and ponies at 2 - from natives through to middle wirght hunters and everything in-between. breaking / backing / does not mean flogging them haf to death........

Clearly one treats a 2 year old very differently to say a 4 year old, or NH store horse t 6 years (anyone who waits to 6 to actually start off its education is slightly bonkers - and yes of course there are always exceptions.......)

The racehorse trainer I know very well (follows the patterm of many other racehorse trainers....) They buy a yearling at the sales - a young horse who has had sales prep, which includes gradual fittening work on a walker, in-hand etc. They buy them at the sales, bring them home and let them relax, normally by turning them out for a couple of months. Come Jan, when they are 2, and if they are strong enough (and some are not, so they get left) they start the breaking process. They have easy work for many months, unless they are precocious, and many are not. The forward ones start cantering, and the faster work comes by degrees, that they are ready to progress at. Come May, one or two, but hardly any more of say a 10 yearling in-take are ready to race - some of that in-take will not race until the Autumn, some will not be ready until they are three (they are generally called the backward ones......)
When they do race they have a 5 furlong race - little more than they would have been done galloping around a rock hard paddock at home - but most racecourse provide the best going they can - and it is in straight lines.......those that perform badly (i.e. still backward, are then given another long rest - pity the poor owner who is paying the bills - but the racehorse trainer is generally in it for the long term)
I could go on - but I am bored now - just think Frankel and the star he was this year - having raced as 2 Year old - and then think on to some of the sales websites you see (I think many of you mention Dragon something.......) wherre it seems that foals are popped in harness? No comparison.
And finally - yes a huge economic impact if 2 YO racing was banned - breeders / trainers/ employees and the huge massive supply chain, surprised you have to ask really! Argghhhhh
Apols for typos - but I sent you a long PM last night re the Daraln thing, having spell checked, et al, when I went to send, my BB had gone down. so just sending tonight, and publically......

 

[amandap]

It would be great to get a small victory and ban two yr olds being raced, I'd support a ban any day of the week, but, realistically there will be some big guns opposed to any change with the whole weight of the establishment behind them. Having said that unless someone tries, we'll never know.

So, what next?

Wouldn't it be fantastic for even a small change that improved things from the horses perspective! I think it's down to being a human. lol However, I do think attitudes are changing and faster in recent years.
Opposition would be huge and powerful and that word, Tradition, would be championed.
The TWH Big Lick (soring) abusers use that argument interestingly, along with justification that it does no real harm and it's their livelihood and lives. It is their livelihood and they have grown up with it and it is part of their culture so they don't see it as wrong.
No way am I comparing racing to those abuses but the cultural mindset around it.
People are very protective of their culture and their status in that culture. Also what you see and do everyday becomes unremarkable and just the way things are.

I don't know PR, but after some of the stuff we've found out on this thread, which is much worse than I ever imagined, I can't see how it is possible that the Animal Welfare Act is not being broken.

I believe it is the tip of the iceberg. Those of us removed from it have no idea...

 

[cptrayes]

I've found this thread fascinating dressedkez, I'm sorry you were bored by it.

To start with I have a fit and healthy 14 year old TB who was started at 2, and is still doing a cracking job as a hunter / happy hacker, having won 5 points for us aged 7 - 10.

And I know a lot of broken ones as well as ones that didn't break. You have one that didn't break. Great.

The racehorse trainer I know very well ...... etc

There would obviously be less of an issue if everyone treated them the way that the trainer who you know very well does. But clearly from the posts from other people than you on this thread, they don't all have the same high standards. Unfortunately the over-feeding and over-training to get them to the yearling sales in the first place, described by other people in the thread, probably still apply even to the ones your trainer trained.

And finally - yes a huge economic impact if 2 YO racing was banned - breeders / trainers/ employees and the huge massive supply chain, surprised you have to ask really! Argghhhhh

I asked because I knew that the gut reaction of many people on this forum would be an immediate "ban it" and I wanted them to consider the implications of the impact on the racing industry, jobs etc. Happily other people took it in better spirit than you and gave some very interesting answers.

On the face of it, a one-off year where a crop of TBs was not raced; an ongoing year's delay in finding out if a stallion's stock have picked up his abilities and the cost of storing for an additional year does not seem to be such an industry-destroying thing to ask for.

I would love to see a proper economic analysis done.

 

[Sparkles]

Yes.

Baby coblet is almost 3, and I can't say I've walked more than 50m once on him, sat very lightly on his back and then jumped off quickly for fear of damaging him in the future. No way in hell, would I even be thinking about doing anything more than that, so to compare a same age other horse to be in training and have done for the past 18 months prior to this also? No way.

 

[dominobrown]

I knew this thread would turn out this way. What started out as a decent discussion with people suggesting things which could actually help has been overtaken by emotive nonsense.
As I stated at the beginning of the thread, I am pro-racing. I currently work in racing, and I have an ex-racer, and I know a lot of people in racing. I would like to see steps taken so less horses break down. Racing isn't perfect, nearly everyone is racing would agree with that, and no one likes to see horses break down. However accidents happen, and everyone surely would like less accidents to happen.
Instead of, for example, starting an online petition to move the age a horse can race to 30 months, emotive, over sensitive people swoop in and spoil the whole thread with a very 'all or nothing' attitude. Also, what I find most offensive, as do most of the pro-racing people on here do to, is the complete sweeping statements and exaggeration which make some posters look like fools and is unfair, untrue and rude.

cptrayes- I am not having a go at you, you asked a genuine question, and replied in an open-minded manner, and listened to suggestions/ ideas of how the industry could be changed for the better. Other posters take note, if you want to see actual change, you need to throw your extremist biased views out the window and come up with realistic helpful ideas. IMO if a safety/ welfare change saves one horses life then it is worth it.

 

[dressedkez]

Wouldn't it be fantastic for even a small change that improved things from the horses perspective! I think it's down to being a human. lol However, I do think attitudes are changing and faster in recent years.
Opposition would be huge and powerful and that word, Tradition, would be championed.
The TWH abusers use that argument interestingly, along with justification that it does no real harm and it's their livelihood and lives. It is their livelihood and they have grown up with it and it is part of their culture so they don't see it as wrong.
No way am I comparing racing to those abuses but the cultural mindset around it.
People are very protective of their culture and their status in that culture. Also what you see and do everyday becomes unremarkable and just the way things are.


I believe it is the tip of the iceberg. Those of us removed from it have no idea...

Yes you are so right, so many things have changed in recent years - and will continue to change. Change is good for the right reasons, but it also needs to be recognised that the horses / ponies that are at most risk, are from a community where horse ownership has become an everyday reality - just as buying a dishwasher, smart phone or car is - and when it stops working, or mis-functions is when we can simply throw it away, and move on to the next interest - possibly a set of golf clubs? or Gym Membership that will take up for the whole of Jan, then we give up on? Horse racing, is not that sort of throw away sport per se - trainers are smarter at getting horses fit, but the welfare of their charges has changed little since the 17th Century, the grooms live in semi squalour, the horses in 5 star luxury (not good, and I speak from experince, but we are talking horse welfare here....) Horses / ponies past their sell by date / capabilities / usefulness - an ethical question for us all s to what happens next, in all disciplines, and certainly not just horse racing....

 

[Mithras]

I have to agree with Dressed_Kez, that was much my experience of racing yards. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I was a stable lass during my long summer vacations from university. I worked for Jim Bolger, for a yard in Newmarket, one in Epsom and one in Belguim. Apart from Bolger's, all of these were mid market yards - I simply didn't have the experience to be taken on my one of the top yards, and that was after a childhood spent riding and competing ponies. I never saw any ill treatment of horses. Virtually all the horses were well behaved with no or minimal behavioural issues, far less so than many of the showjumpers I've tried with a view to buying recently.

There were always people there who had worked there their whole lives, and the attention to detail and care of the horses was far higher than in any livery yard I've ever been at. eg the beds had to be really thick and banked, so the horses would feel comfortable to lie down at night and be rested properly. Girths and saddle cloths would be washed every single day. Feeds would be altered daily by the head lad. Stable lasses like me would report back each day on how the horse felt and the horse taken off the roster for the next however many days if it felt a bit flat. In every single yard I worked at, the horses were cossetted, but in a professional way.

I rode a lot of two year olds, because I am small and light. The ones that weren't strong didn't do much and certainly didn't work, or even go on the gallops. They all go out in a big string of other horses, some of them don't even canter but just wait at the bottom of the gallops. The ones that were being ridden were all sprint bred types designed to mature early, not big boned, late-maturing types. Their legs were checked constantly, usually by the head lad feeling them and looking at the way they moved, every single day. One of the other reason they bring two year olds into training is that most of the colts are entire and they are simply easier to bring on at a less opionated two than three.

So certainly some of the owners might treat them as an investment and nothing else, for a lot of the middle market guys, the day to day care and welfare of the horses is paramount. And the top yards will be even more so. Yards like Cecil's or Stoute's have a fantastic reputation for very good reason. They both turned me down for jobs, but pointed me in the direction of a "lesser" yard that would take me on!

I don't agree with some of they things done in TB racing, but I honestly think theres worse going on in other equestrian fields. eg the number of warmbloods produced on a conveyor belt, badly broken and brought on, over-jumped when young to be sellable. Or show ponies, kept indoors, rugged up, under heat lamps...And the warmblood industry is of course the reason why much of the market in TBs to riding horse types has been lost.

 

[TarrSteps]

Re what has changed. . all sorts of things. . . emphasis on early speed in Flat breeding which makes ex-race horses that bit less suitable for other jobs, and the rise of common place AI which has increased the number of modern purpose-bred horses available to the average buyer.

If we're going to split hairs I'd say racehorses DO have one aspect to their lives that is hugely beneficial, they grow up in a peer group, at least until they go into training. Many purpose bred horses now grow up entirely as 'only foals' - a situation which I feel is also not in the horses' best interests.

 

[cptrayes]

cptrayes- I am not having a go at you, you asked a genuine question, and replied in an open-minded manner, and listened to suggestions/ ideas of how the industry could be changed for the better. Other posters take note, if you want to see actual change, you need to throw your extremist biased views out the window and come up with realistic helpful ideas. IMO if a safety/ welfare change saves one horses life then it is worth it.

I would go all out for a change, but only if it could be done worldwide. I wouldn't support something which would only move the babies to countries with worse welfare records, nor one which would put a great British/Irish industry at a disadvantage.

I can't see how it can be done

 

[amandap]

Perhaps those who work in racing can suggest ways forward that might work?

 

[dominobrown]

I would go all out for a change, but only if it could be done worldwide. I wouldn't support something which would only move the babies to countries with worse welfare records, nor one which would put a great British/Irish industry at a disadvantage.

I can't see how it can be done

Agree, its not fair for Britain to do the right thing and get punished for it, but as I stated earlier, compared to racing in other countries our horses have it lucky Also an ex-racer in Britain has a much better future than an ex-racer elsewhere in most cases.
All I can suggest is a world-wide campaign to move the age a horse can race back even a few months, backed by large organisations. Unfortunately the likes of PETA have lost all creditability with extremist misinformed sensationalist views.
If PETA wasn't run by idiots they could of made an actual difference. A large organisation with a lot of funding and 'big names' behind it could of maybe concentrated their efforts in making small but realistic changes to animal welfare which are practical, could easily be enforced and help save animals lives.

 

[Mithras]

You would have to make distance races for later maturing horses more fashionable and popular and with the greatest returns. Even the Derby is now out of fashion, so much is the emphasis on speed and precocity.

Once you've lost the Derby as the pinnacle of racing, all the rest collapses. The Derby is structured around good quality horses with speed and stamina to stay 1 and a half miles at age 3 in June, not to win a 5 furlong race at York in say July as a 2 year old. That actually makes a huge difference, because the horses not quick enough for the Derby are likely to make good stayers and need to be reasonably sound to continue onto training as 4 year olds.

We have actually seen many horses recently do better at 4 than 3, and many good horses run up a string of Group 1 victories over multi-seasons of racing. But still we have the short term commercial popularity of sprint bred precocious types and perhaps racing needs to actively discourage that, or make it in some way undesirable.

Perhaps too stallions should be licensed? Should we really see horses like Nureyev, Fairy King, Nordico, Danzig, etc who were all retired unsound as 2 year olds or early as 3 year olds, or didn't race at all (Fairy King)as fashionable and good foundation stock, because they carry good bloodlines?

Perhaps the Arabs, with their focus on endurance racing, could be persuaded to do something. I think its very hard. In Australia, the Melbourne Cup, which is a staying handicap, is still one of the most famous races, so perhaps we should be looking to there to see what is done to keep this status quo.

 

[dressedkez]

I knew this thread would turn out this way. What started out as a decent discussion with people suggesting things which could actually help has been overtaken by emotive nonsense.
As I stated at the beginning of the thread, I am pro-racing. I currently work in racing, and I have an ex-racer, and I know a lot of people in racing. I would like to see steps taken so less horses break down. Racing isn't perfect, nearly everyone is racing would agree with that, and no one likes to see horses break down. However accidents happen, and everyone surely would like less accidents to happen.
Instead of, for example, starting an online petition to move the age a horse can race to 30 months, emotive, over sensitive people swoop in and spoil the whole thread with a very 'all or nothing' attitude. Also, what I find most offensive, as do most of the pro-racing people on here do to, is the complete sweeping statements and exaggeration which make some posters look like fools and is unfair, untrue and rude.

cptrayes- I am not having a go at you, you asked a genuine question, and replied in an open-minded manner, and listened to suggestions/ ideas of how the industry could be changed for the better. Other posters take note, if you want to see actual change, you need to throw your extremist biased views out the window and come up with realistic helpful ideas. IMO if a safety/ welfare change saves one horses life then it is worth it.

I don't think I was being that emotive - but maybe I was. But the problem with this post, is that some have solid experience of the issues, and can make sold judgements based on that experience - for and against racing 2 year olds (and I have to say before I joined a syndicate that had a 2 YO in training, and discovered more about the back story of how reputable trainers / breeders do it, I was at one time fairly anti too) You might also be interested to know that my 2 year old was backward, raced when it was almost 3 years - clearly showed that she hated it, she had talant, but was a Chestnut mare, so we called it a day, and now she has a lovely new home, working for Tesco......Joke! She is trying out to be a Polo Pony / PC Pony........and is feisty enough to make her mark!
CPTrayes did make some valid comments in respect of my response (thank-you) but in the grand scheme of things, getting at racehorse owners / trainers is the tip - and the problem with over breeding across the whole spectrum of horses/ ponies and the general ignorance there is now about how does one ride a horse / look after a horse et al is far more endemic than the 2 year old debate.
One poster talked about horses at Ascot have devalued - that goes across the whole board - 10 years ago anything imported from Ireland was £KK's - now they can only sell for meat processing. But I have a cracking horse that I paid £400 for at Ascot a year ago, and would have not paid any more for - as he was in a sad and sorry state - now he is lovely, and my teenage sons wonder horse - what is he worth to sell on - well £500 in todays current market, but we don't want too - so that is fine.

 

[dominobrown]

Perhaps too stallions should be licensed? Should we really see horses like Nureyev, Fairy King, Nordico, Danzig, etc who were all retired unsound as 2 year olds or early as 3 year olds, or didn't race at all (Fairy King)as fashionable and good foundation stock, because they carry good bloodlines?

Agree. Surprised they are not.
I know with Irish Draughts they have to be inspected before they can be RID.
I think all breeding stock should have to pass an inspection before it could breed.
In fact all horses should have to pass an inspection before they can breed!

dressedkez- Wasn't referring to you!