Should rescues buy from the meat man.

[chillipup]

No, it's an Irish rescue. Sadly the horse welfare crisis in Ireland continues to get worse, it would appear this particular meat dealer is taking advantage of that by buying the poorest little ponies he can find and tugging the heart strings of this particular rescue who will then buy them off him. The rescue in question has supporters around the world who seem to donate lots of money and the lady who runs it all has a great way with words that persuades people to part with money regularly. I don't agree with it, but something has to be done because the rescue appears to have taken at least 10 horses from this man in the last 24 hours and they are in appalling condition.

Well said, but I'm not sure about the ponies being in 'appalling condition'...I can't actually tell what their body conditions are like from the photos. However, they certainly don't look in great shape, do appear thin, all are soaking wet, dirty, probably full of worms.and may or may not have a whole host of ailments..but they are all standing up in the box, and have the chance of a better future, unlike that poor little youngster shown in HHO this week that was found abandoned, too weak to even stand up and had to be pts - found in Kent if I recall.

 

[jewel]

i dont agree with it, said rescue has bought loads of meat man in the last few weeks. The thing that gets me is the ones i saw last week were skin and bone so imo dont have a meat value.

 

[ycbm]

A think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from where the meat is going. I get the impression that some think the animals are going for human consumption on the continent. Most however go to zoos and for pet food, hence why the value is so little.

This. If we could get a market for frozen horse meat for human consumption going, then horses would be worth money for meat again and it would be worth keeping them reasonably well until they are quickly killed.

 

[Dobiegirl]

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...s-wrong&highlight=animal+heaven+animal+rescue


Still think this is a good rescue?



Some of the previous meat horses have already gone to their new homes which is very hard to believe when we all know how rescues struggles to rehome their horses. There will be no updates as per the norm, they will just drop off the radar so who for sure cant say they are going to end up at with the meat man again.

 

[Equi]

This charity do this all the time. One big batch were all rescued the day they were taken without passports, and the charity itself having no record of who took them or anything. They were loaded into a lorry and taken all over the island to anyone who could do whatever they wanted with them. A few ended up in nice forever homes, but many ended up at dealers and sold on within a few days for £50.

 

[Equi]

I don't think the meat man is keeping the horses at all, he is just sourcing the poorest, sickest animals he can find because he knows he can sell them to the rescue. They are essentially paying this man to source rescue's for them, which is a bit mad considering the current crisis means there isn't exactly a shortage.

My main issue with this rescue is the impact on other organisations. I know a few people in the UK who have heard about this and tarred all Irish rescues with the same brush and I have had to persuade them that our local rescue (https://www.facebook.com/HungryhorseOutside/) is not a funding stream for the local meat man.

I love HHO. They are the only ones really trying to actively stop the equine crisis not just berating everyone all the time.

 

[Knockadoon]

They rehome so many horses and all the other rescues struggle so much. The checks are not adequate to guarantee these horses are going to a good responsible home and not some person who thinks they are doing good but are not knowledgeable enough. Or just someone who wants a free horse. Bad news for the horse in either case.

 

[stormox]

Chillipup- AHAR immediately block you from their page if you ask a legitimate question, like 'is it sensible to buy from meat men,puppy farmers (yes they do that too, especially at fairs) then plead for money. There is another page -'Animal Heaven Animal Rescue AHAR exposed'.Take a look at that, then judge...

 

[Regandal]

Apart from the dubious 'rescues', I feel uneasy about all the youngsters (human) you see always hanging around the place. Are all their employees/helpers cleared for working with children? Seems to be a lot of random people visit.

 

[Ladyinred]

Back when I was working with horses we had the awful experience of going to feed one morning and finding a top class and very valuable WHP had had a heart attack during the night. He was alive, just. The meat man was a friend of the owner and came to collect after vet had agreed nothing could be done. Pony was slowly and carefully loaded into the lorry, many tears were shed and that was that... or should have been. 5 years later I was teaching and a boy turned up on a very familiar pony, after inquiries it was verified that yes it was the pony sent to slaughter, he had been chucked in a field for 12 months and then sold on. New owner was jumping him when he had the second, fatal, heart attack.

I would hate the thought that a horse had sadly gone to the 'meat man' and then sold on. Very very few end up there without good reason and it is downright irresponsible for any 'rescue' to take them with a view to rehoming. It's an accident waiting to happen in so many cases.

I have also had negative experiences of this charity, which sends both horses and dogs to the UK for rehoming. Well-meaning? Possibly. Irresponsible? Definitely.

 

[Orca]

https://forums-secure.horseandhound...s-wrong&highlight=animal+heaven+animal+rescue


Still think this is a good rescue?



Some of the previous meat horses have already gone to their new homes which is very hard to believe when we all know how rescues struggles to rehome their horses. There will be no updates as per the norm, they will just drop off the radar so who for sure cant say they are going to end up at with the meat man again.

Is this the same rescue as this website? http://savinglives.ahar.ie/

If so, they have a charity number (CHY20701), so if you are concerned about their practices, it could well be worth contacting the Charities Regulatory Authority (http://www.charitycommissioners.ie/), along with the ISPCA (http://www.ispca.ie/) because although posting here is great and raises awareness, it doesn't actually achieve much else. I don't know if either the CRA or ISPCA will help but it's got to be worth a try.

There is also an animal welfare helpline number on the ministry of agriculture page (http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/) and to be honest, in emailing any of the above, I'd cc in TD Simon Coveney (if my information is current and correct!), who according to this press release, has a keen interest in animal welfare (http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2011/december/title,60401,en.html).

His contact details are here http://www.simoncoveney.ie/our-people/ministers/simon-coveney/index.xml

 

[popsdosh]

This. If we could get a market for frozen horse meat for human consumption going, then horses would be worth money for meat again and it would be worth keeping them reasonably well until they are quickly killed.

Princess Ann got it spot on a few years back when she said the lack of an open horse meat market is detrimental to horse welfare.

Some are totally blind to this logic however a poor animal with no flesh has no value ,if there is an end use its in every bodies interest to have them in the best condition possible.

 

[laura_nash]

I would hate the thought that a horse had sadly gone to the 'meat man' and then sold on. Very very few end up there without good reason and it is downright irresponsible for any 'rescue' to take them with a view to rehoming. It's an accident waiting to happen in so many cases.

Whilst I understand your concern I don't think this is actually likely in this case. I believe the "meat man" is actually deliberately buying (or taking for free) genuine "rescues", as in horses whose owners are struggling or have given up and who have essentially been abandoned in their field, and he is buying them purely for the purpose of selling them to this charity. Sadly they are not too difficult to find in Ireland at the moment.

I have also had negative experiences of this charity, which sends both horses and dogs to the UK for rehoming. Well-meaning? Possibly. Irresponsible? Definitely.

As I said I have no personal, direct experience of this charity, but I'm not so certain the owner is well-meaning (I'm sure many of the volunteers and donators are). Read the story about the macaw, unless this is fabrication (and if it is its a very convincing one) then the owner is not quite as well-meaning as you might hope.

 

[honetpot]

Princess Ann got it spot on a few years back when she said the lack of an open horse meat market is detrimental to horse welfare.

Some are totally blind to this logic however a poor animal with no flesh has no value ,if there is an end use its in every bodies interest to have them in the best condition possible.

The trouble is most of these animals have no passports and no medication history so they would no be allowed in to the human food chain.
For them to go for human consumption they would have to have a traceable health history with withdrawal for drugs like sheep, goats and cattle have and bute would not be allowed to be used.
For some unscrupulous dealers this would be an excuse not to treat, unless its all monitored by DEFRA, EHO etc, There is no money for this, there is very little money in farming traditional meat animals any way. Horses are very poor converters of food into meat.

 

[stormox]

AHAR do not currently have a charity number in the UK but are trying to get one so more UK people will donate, it states this on their 'just giving' FB page, and I think on their main FB page too.

 

[popsdosh]

The trouble is most of these animals have no passports and no medication history so they would no be allowed in to the human food chain.
For them to go for human consumption they would have to have a traceable health history with withdrawal for drugs like sheep, goats and cattle have and bute would not be allowed to be used.
For some unscrupulous dealers this would be an excuse not to treat, unless its all monitored by DEFRA, EHO etc, There is no money for this, there is very little money in farming traditional meat animals any way. Horses are very poor converters of food into meat.

However if there is a working meat market there would be more of a reason to make sure they had passports etc and people would not let them get poor its chicken and egg . You will never solve this issue of neglected horses without a viable and economic end use for them ! I am not making a case for farming them commercially as its a none staeter because this country traditionally dont consume horses. however if its possible to get some return for an animal thats not been neglected you are less likely to see neglect.

 

[stormox]

Agreed Popsosh- there are a lot of horses without passports that cant be slaughtered for human consumption. And there are a lot of horses that an owner, at sometime, has signed out of the foodchain. Also any horse that has had bute, or most drugs (my own horse is signed out beause of the drugs used in having a wind op) are out. That makes a lot of horses never able to go for meat..... which, IMO is good as live export is awful.

 

[WeeLassie]

I have just lookeat that animal rescue Animal Heaven page- its all pleas for money, and sad pictures used to try and raise it. Judging by the donations, they get money from all over Europe, even plenty from USA!!
It seems wrong to use this money to 'buy' animals from meat men, puppy farmers etc- surely in the long run this will make for more cruelty.

 

[luckyoldme]

i really dont know enough about this rescue to slate them, and I really feel that the lady is well meaning. The photos are heartbreaking but the turnover seems very quick from rescue to rehome. I would be worried that the proper checks are nt carried out resulting in further suffering for some of the rescues. The saddest thing of all is that the situation arises that so many horses end up in those conditions in the first place, and no one has any ideas on how to stop the suffering.

 

[Cortez]

The saddest thing of all is that the situation arises that so many horses end up in those conditions in the first place, and no one has any ideas on how to stop the suffering.

How's this for an idea? Send the unwanted and therefore negelected horses to slaughter, oh wait, that's where we came in isn't it.....

 

[DD]

I sometimes dont know what to think about rescuing. If there were no rescues at all and owners were made to take responsibility then equine welfare might be a lot better than it is now.

 

[luckyoldme]

How's this for an idea? Send the unwanted and therefore negelected horses to slaughter, oh wait, that's where we came in isn't it.....

really good idea on paper, but how do you legislate against people wanting to rescue them? In real terms that means that everyone who is selling on any horse because they don t want is should be having them slaughtered..or will there be some kind of governing body deciding which ones are allowed to be sold to new homes and which ones need to be culled?

 

[Cortez]

really good idea on paper, but how do you legislate against people wanting to rescue them? In real terms that means that everyone who is selling on any horse because they don t want is should be having them slaughtered..or will there be some kind of governing body deciding which ones are allowed to be sold to new homes and which ones need to be culled?

Of course not; if the horse is for sale, presumably whoever buys it wants it. It's the ones that people don't want to buy or look after that end up neglected, and it is those unfortunates that would be better off sent to slaughter.

 

[happyclappy]

Sorry but I have not read many replies. My answer is no, this is wrong. By buying "we" are simply fuelling the business and providing an income for someone who can sell any horse he/she can get hold of. Being humainly slaughtered is a good option for many horses. So many need rehoming, not jut those said to be going for meet, and not every horse can, or should be saved from the meat man.

 

[honetpot]

However if there is a working meat market there would be more of a reason to make sure they had passports etc and people would not let them get poor its chicken and egg . You will never solve this issue of neglected horses without a viable and economic end use for them ! I am not making a case for farming them commercially as its a none staeter because this country traditionally dont consume horses. however if its possible to get some return for an animal thats not been neglected you are less likely to see neglect.

Its costs nothing to register sheep, goats, or cattle. Most of these are slaughtered at 6-12 months, cattle most still under 30months and most farmers know exactly how much grain they are putting into them to get to slaughter weight. They get subsidies, cheap diesel, produce their own fodder, if they rent land its £200 and acre plus,to buy £10k and they still are not really making any money for the amount of money, time and energy they put in.
I think the pig is the fastest maturing meat animal, and pig farmers struggle and margins are tight. I do see how anyone could even think about making money out of horseflesh in the UK unless they follow some the unsavoury practices that go on in Europe.
The realities of marketing, producing and making money out of producing meat,
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/some-thoughts-on-beef-prices.88472/

 

[VikingSong]

I am not a fan of this rescue, I don't agree with creating a market wherein the meat man sells horses at rather inflated prices to the rescue. Having seen the condition of the ponies rescued, I doubt they would have fetched much when it came to meat. But I am fed up of people thinking the factory is a good end for their horses. If you can't afford to PTS humanely, then you can't afford a horse. Simple. Let's not fool ourselves that going to the meat man is a good ending for any horse, it's not. How many factories are operating in the UK? Not that many. Meat thus usually means live transportation abroad in horrific conditions. Sending horses for meat is not the answer to any problem, it creates a market where unscrupulous people will breed for meat. Have we all forgotten the atrocities of Amersham already? Those were meat horses. The meat man in question who is "selling" to the rescue is quite obviously keeping them in horrid conditions. What is the answer to that? Leave him to it??

This. Well said.

Those who can't afford to have their horses/ponies put, humanly, to sleep shouldn't own horses/ponies in the first place.

Those who think unwanted horses sold to the "meat man" don't suffer are deluded. I have experience in this area and I know what I've witnessed.

I utterly loathe people who treat their animals like commodities and then, after years of their animals bringing them pleasure, don't have the decency to give their animals a humane end.

When I bought mine, I made sure I had the funds put aside to cover having them PTS humanely should the need ever arise. I certainly won't be selling them to the meat man because it's easier and cheaper...

 

[elliefiz]

Why is being slaughtered a good option?? What's wrong with putting a horse to sleep?because of the cost? The closest place to me that takes horses for slaughter charges you for the service and the meat goes to the local wildlife park for the big cats. As someone pointed out, there's no money in that part of the business. I can't understand why anyone would pay to do this and not just have the vet do it humanely at home? The money comes from meat for human consumption which are usually animals shipped across Europe and which no one can claim is humane, only this morning I saw an appeal in the Times from an Equine charity for funds to help put a stop to the live horse meat transport trade. There needs to be a cull of unwanted horses in this country and in Ireland, no doubt about it. And a charity needs to raise funds to pay for this instead of perpetuating the lives of unwanted horses who will struggle to find life long homes. Most charities would get zero support if they stated their policy was PTS but it's unrealistic to think one can save everything. But the meat trade can't be supported, it will do nothing to improve horse welfare in the UK and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. The kill pen problems in the USA proves why it doesn't work. i visited one in person whilst in the USA and it was horrifying. That's the last thing we need here.

 

[popsdosh]

Its costs nothing to register sheep, goats, or cattle. Most of these are slaughtered at 6-12 months, cattle most still under 30months and most farmers know exactly how much grain they are putting into them to get to slaughter weight. They get subsidies, cheap diesel, produce their own fodder, if they rent land its £200 and acre plus,to buy £10k and they still are not really making any money for the amount of money, time and energy they put in.
I think the pig is the fastest maturing meat animal, and pig farmers struggle and margins are tight. I do see how anyone could even think about making money out of horseflesh in the UK unless they follow some the unsavoury practices that go on in Europe.
The realities of marketing, producing and making money out of producing meat,
http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/some-thoughts-on-beef-prices.88472/

I am fully aware of the economics of producing meat as thats part of my business dont think youll find many beef/sheep units paying £200/acre rent
I really dont see where you get the idea that I think people can make money out of selling horses for meat or that I am advocating horse fattening units. however if for example you could get £250 for a TB for slaughter which isnt unrealistic as they were around the £400 pound mark not so long ago are you not going to keep it in better nick and end its days sooner than if its going to cost you £150 to dispose of if you neglect it and it has no worth . Thats why a market for slaughter horses means better welfare not that anybody gets rich just creates an outlet that gives a small return.

 

[elliefiz]

I am fully aware of the economics of producing meat as thats part of my business dont think youll find many beef/sheep units paying £200/acre rent
I really dont see where you get the idea that I think people can make money out of selling horses for meat or that I am advocating horse fattening units. however if for example you could get £250 for a TB for slaughter which isnt unrealistic as they were around the £400 pound mark not so long ago are you not going to keep it in better nick and end its days sooner than if its going to cost you £150 to dispose of if you neglect it and it has no worth . Thats why a market for slaughter horses means better welfare not that anybody gets rich just creates an outlet that gives a small return.

The issue is that's not how people think. That's been proven time and time again with fields full of meat horses having to be rescued by already over flowing rescues. Someone has just updated an old thread regarding a colt she took on when a rescue stepped in for 40 meat horses in dire straits. This happens all too commonly. A market currently exists for meat horses, I know someone sending a lorry full a month to the continent. He has fields and fields of hairy, coloured cobs that receive little to no care, he doesn't give two hoots about their welfare, he just wants to get them on a lorry and off to Europe to one of the meat markets there. He probably isn't getting huge sums of money for the horses there but it must be profitable enough for him to keep doing it, and to keep the meat dealers on the road week after week going to the auctions and buying up cheap, unwanted horses.

 

[stormox]

The honest truth is that way too many horses are bred for the available homes. Black and white cobs breeding unchecked on canal banks, fly grazing council land, stallions mating their daughters, colts mating their mothers, ponies wild in the NF and Dartmoor etc, people breeding because 'its a waste to have an empty mare'..... if there wasnt so many rubbish horses/ponies with no value being bred, there wouldnt be so much abandonment, starvation and cruelty.
It ought to be a law that colts should be castrated at a year, that might go some way towards breeding less unwanted animals.