Should rescues buy from the meat man.

elliefiz said:
The issue is that's not how people think. That's been proven time and time again with fields full of meat horses having to be rescued by already over flowing rescues. Someone has just updated an old thread regarding a colt she took on when a rescue stepped in for 40 meat horses in dire straits. This happens all too commonly. A market currently exists for meat horses, I know someone sending a lorry full a month to the continent. He has fields and fields of hairy, coloured cobs that receive little to no care, he doesn't give two hoots about their welfare, he just wants to get them on a lorry and off to Europe to one of the meat markets there. He probably isn't getting huge sums of money for the horses there but it must be profitable enough for him to keep doing it, and to keep the meat dealers on the road week after week going to the auctions and buying up cheap, unwanted horses.
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This is why we need a market in this country for those animals, to avoid the transport. I think there is a minimum value for export in bulk, is he faking the paperwork to get round it?


Do you not think if those horses were worth more, and sellable on this country, that they would be better looked after? You don't see many neglected, thin thirty month old beef cattle, do you? I've never heard of a beef cattle rescue charity, is there one?
 
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elliefiz said:
Why is being slaughtered a good option?? What's wrong with putting a horse to sleep?because of the cost? The closest place to me that takes horses for slaughter charges you for the service and the meat goes to the local wildlife park for the big cats. As someone pointed out, there's no money in that part of the business. I can't understand why anyone would pay to do this and not just have the vet do it humanely at home? The money comes from meat for human consumption which are usually animals shipped across Europe and which no one can claim is humane, only this morning I saw an appeal in the Times from an Equine charity for funds to help put a stop to the live horse meat transport trade. There needs to be a cull of unwanted horses in this country and in Ireland, no doubt about it. And a charity needs to raise funds to pay for this instead of perpetuating the lives of unwanted horses who will struggle to find life long homes. Most charities would get zero support if they stated their policy was PTS but it's unrealistic to think one can save everything. But the meat trade can't be supported, it will do nothing to improve horse welfare in the UK and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. The kill pen problems in the USA proves why it doesn't work. i visited one in person whilst in the USA and it was horrifying. That's the last thing we need here.
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I prefer my horses to be shot. I think it is better. I have seen death by injection and it was not 'putting to sleep'.. Once they are dead I would rather they were eaten by an animal or a human than burnt to cinders, which is a waste of their flesh and the energy to do the burning.
 
ycbm said:
This is why we need a market in this country for those animals, to avoid the transport. I think there is a minimum value for export in bulk, is he faking the paperwork to get round it?
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I have no idea how he operates nor do I want to. I find his whole modus operandi disgusting. But I know large nunbers leave his farm in veritable cattle trucks according to his neighbours.

There will be no market in the UK for these animals. We don't eat horse here and that's not going to change with the growing trend of people looking to consume less meat, not more.

The law needs to change to control breeding of horses and a mass cull undertaken to rid the country of unwanted horses. A humane cull. But I fear the problems will probably never be solved because people's attitudes won't change, like the farmers who "own" the mountain ponies who go for slaughter in huge numbers, most have zero interest in the welfare of the ponies but are happy to have a few quid in their pockets when the ponies are rounded up and auctioned off with 99% going for meat. Considering no money or work goes into the care of the ponies who are left to fend for themselves, it really is money for old rope.
 
ycbm said:
I prefer my horses to be shot. I think it is better. I have seen death by injection and it was not 'putting to sleep'.. Once they are dead I would rather they were eaten by an animal or a human than burnt to cinders, which is a waste of their flesh and the energy to do the burning.
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YCBM for this comment I am taking you off UI - maybe we are more alike than I thought. Sorry for being a bitch to you...
 
VikingSong said:
This. Well said.

Those who can't afford to have their horses/ponies put, humanly, to sleep shouldn't own horses/ponies in the first place.

Those who think unwanted horses sold to the "meat man" don't suffer are deluded. I have experience in this area and I know what I've witnessed.

I utterly loathe people who treat their animals like commodities and then, after years of their animals bringing them pleasure, don't have the decency to give their animals a humane end.

When I bought mine, I made sure I had the funds put aside to cover having them PTS humanely should the need ever arise. I certainly won't be selling them to the meat man because it's easier and cheaper...
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Out of interest, what do you consider to be a humane death? I've seen two methods used and although one is more 'violent' (and so probably more difficult to witness), I believe it is the quicker, surer and less traumatic (for the horse) option. Unless by humane, you mean that they will be at 'home' with you? I'd agree that by either method, this is the kindest route where possible. The meat man would not be an option for me and this thread highlights the uncertainty of what happens to horses once they are handed over.
 
ycbm said:
I prefer my horses to be shot. I think it is better. I have seen death by injection and it was not 'putting to sleep'.. Once they are dead I would rather they were eaten by an animal or a human than burnt to cinders, which is a waste of their flesh and the energy to do the burning.
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I suggested in a past post to use the local hunt which we have done in the past. Horse shot on our property and removed for a small charge. Completely humane. And under our control. Not in a factory or in the hands of a meat dealer with no control over what happens to the horse.
 
ycbm said:
http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/live-export-FAQs

Elliefizz, what the exporter near you is doing is illegal. You should report him.
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The RSPCA have been to his premises a number of times due to a number of us reporting him. They haven't taken any action against him despite it being very obvious what his business is. As the link says, many fly under the radar, he obviously gets away with it along with many others.
 
elliefiz said:
I have no idea how he operates nor do I want to. I find his whole modus operandi disgusting. But I know large nunbers leave his farm in veritable cattle trucks according to his neighbours.
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You obviously do care. You should report him.

There will be no market in the UK for these animals. We don't eat horse here and that's not going to change with the growing trend of people looking to consume less meat, not more.
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There's no reason why we couldn't export quality frozen horsemeat. And actually there IS a small but growing market in this country, it's just done online and not much talked about because of the British prejudice against eating horse.

The law needs to change to control breeding of horses and a mass cull undertaken to rid the country of unwanted horses. A humane cull. But I fear the problems will probably never be solved because people's attitudes won't change, like the farmers who "own" the mountain ponies who go for slaughter in huge numbers, most have zero interest in the welfare of the ponies but are happy to have a few quid in their pockets when the ponies are rounded up and auctioned off with 99% going for meat. Considering no money or work goes into the care of the ponies who are left to fend for themselves, it really is money for old rope.
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Your approach is to ban. Mine is to incentivise proper welfare by making the animals valuable enough to justify it.
 
elliefiz said:
I suggested in a past post to use the local hunt which we have done in the past. Horse shot on our property and removed for a small charge. Completely humane. And under our control. Not in a factory or in the hands of a meat dealer with no control over what happens to the horse.
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Of course, but the post I answered asked why people weren't getting their vets to put their horses down by injection, and inferred that anyone who had them shot was a bad owner. I'm glad that you have clarified.

I agree with you, no leisure horse should be left at an abattoir alive and the owner walk away. I don't, though, have any problem with a short trip to an abattoir by a horse fit to travel and shooting on site in an individual pen. This is, I understand, how Potters do it.
 
elliefiz said:
The RSPCA have been to his premises a number of times due to a number of us reporting him. They haven't taken any action against him despite it being very obvious what his business is. As the link says, many fly under the radar, he obviously gets away with it along with many others.
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They can't prosecute him, so much as you think his horses are neglected, they aren't in a condition that is illegal. So the only part of his operation which is illegal is the export of animals under the legal export value. Maybe they aren't going abroad, on which case he's doing nothing wrong at all.
 
ycbm said:
You obviously do care. You should report him.



There's no reason why we couldn't export quality frozen horsemeat. And actually there IS a small but growing market in this country, it's just done online and not much talked about because of the British prejudice against eating horse.



Your approach is to ban. Mine is to incentivise proper welfare by making the animals valuable enough to justify it.
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He has been reported many times by myself and a number of my horse friends when we have had to step in with horses left without water, loose on the road etc. He is well known to the RSPCA and I imagine also the police considering they have attended when horses have been loose, etc.

We are going to have to agree to disagree, the only incentives I believe should be on offer is to provide some sort of funding for horses to be disposed of humanely. Not to try and persuade people to raise horses for meat when meat consumption is decreasing anyway. Horses are not like cattle in any way, you don't fatten a horse like a cow it is far more expensive to do so and to keep horses in huge numbers in the style of cattle or sheep would have massive costs. We keep horses in Germany for breeding, most operate out there with large numbers kept more like cattle in comparison to here and even on a large scale where costs are spread, it's not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I am sorry - I get a bit blinkered when I am passionate about something...
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Thread hijack :)

Funny thing is that I am as passionate about free at point of use health services as you are. Currently in an ongoing argument with the OH about charges to see a GP!
 
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ycbm said:
They can't prosecute him, so much as you think his horses are neglected, they aren't in a condition that is illegal. So the only part of his operation which is illegal is the export of animals under the legal export value. Maybe they aren't going abroad, on which case he's doing nothing wrong at all.
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ycbm, I dont take to speculating on random Internet forums. I haven't decided to take it upon myself to decide these horses have gone abroad for meat when really he just loads them up for a jaunt around the countryside. Most local horse people know where the horses are destined for. Needless to say it's not loving homes to be fed carrots by a pony mad child. He has not been secretive about what he does nor about how little thought he gives to the horses welfare. Local people did a fundraiser on Facebook for hay for the horses because of the sorry state of them and because the RSPCA did nothing.
 
Elliefizz, I do not understand how you can say that horses can't be bred like cattle. They ARE bred like cattle on the continent. Huge meaty horses bred specifically for the continental horsemeat market.

There is no suggestion of trying to persuade people to breed for meat. Your comments are all about people who are ALREADY breeding for meat, who are receiving such a poor price for their product that they don't manage them properly.
 
elliefiz said:
ycbm, I dont take to speculating on random Internet forums. I haven't decided to take it upon myself to decide these horses have gone abroad for meat when really he just loads them up for a jaunt around the countryside. Most local horse people know where the horses are destined for. Needless to say it's not loving homes to be fed carrots by a pony mad child. He has not been secretive about what he does nor about how little thought he gives to the horses welfare. Local people did a fundraiser on Facebook for hay for the horses because of the sorry state of them and because the RSPCA did nothing.
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OK, it's clearly not possible to discuss this properly with you. Of course there is no 'jaunt around the countryside' . Yes, they are going for meat. I don't think there is anything wrong with them going for meat, as long as they are not illegally being transported abroad. You do. We will have to agree to differ.
 
Orca said:
Out of interest, what do you consider to be a humane death? I've seen two methods used and although one is more 'violent' (and so probably more difficult to witness), I believe it is the quicker, surer and less traumatic (for the horse) option. Unless by humane, you mean that they will be at 'home' with you? I'd agree that by either method, this is the kindest route where possible. The meat man would not be an option for me and this thread highlights the uncertainty of what happens to horses once they are handed over.
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Violent is an emotive way to describe shooting a horse in truth they wont even hear the bang the only violence is in the owners mind ., Have seen to many on the race track ,and others done by injection to ever believe they have a better end by injection..
 
ycbm said:
Elliefizz, I do not understand how you can say that horses can't be bred like cattle. They ARE bred like cattle on the continent. Huge meaty horses bred specifically for the continental horsemeat market.

There is no suggestion of trying to persuade people to breed for meat. Your comments are all about people who are ALREADY breeding for meat, who are receiving such a poor price for their product that they don't manage them properly.
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The people I know aren't breeding for meat. They acquire the horses from elsewhere. There is sometimes foals born but more due to lack of any control than deliberate breeding. As you said you wish to incentivise the production of horse meat to make it a more valuable commodity and in turn people will be more considerate of horse welfare. How would you do that? In a free market the price is set by demand, there is a demand for horse meat, mainly on the continent and horses are sent there to feed that demand. Unless there is a huge rise in the number of people eating horse meat, the demand is not going to increase, so unless you suggest some sort of government backed scheme to fix a price for the meat then I have no idea how to make the meat worth more than it currently is valued at. And whatever the current value is, it's enough that people are still getting involved in the horse meat market and making some sort of profit because otherwise why are they doing it?.

I mentioned the American kill pens in another post. The USA has banned horse slaughter even for pet food. However horses can still be shipped to South America, with Mexico being one of the biggest consumers of horse meat in the world. As a result there is a market for horses to go for meat and kill pens have sprung up which is where the purchased horses are held until they ship out for slaughter. These kill pens are atrocious places where horse welfare is a dirty word. I have been to one personally and it was horrific. But taking the emotion out of the situation, this shows that there currently exists a market in the USA for horse meat. Why then have all the huge ranches out in the USA not stopped farming cattle and switched to farming horses for meat? After all there must be money in it considering the hundreds of horses that were in the kill pen I visited. These horses come from auctions and race tracks, they are not mass farmed like cattle. And the reason for this is that they are too expensive to produce for meat, far more expensive than cattle, sheep or pigs. It is not financially viable to raise horses for meat, if it was everyone would be doing it, especially in the USA where a huge market exists for the meat in South America. There is absolutely no need to recreate that sort of situation here. It perpetuates a never ending cycle in which rescues are set up to buy horses from the kill pens, which brings us right back to the same scenario that the OP posted about.
 
popsdosh said:
Violent is an emotive way to describe shooting a horse in truth they wont even hear the bang the only violence is in the owners mind ., Have seen to many on the race track ,and others done by injection to ever believe they have a better end by injection..
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Having home killed many sheep and pigs I too would always opt for the bullet for a horse. Head in feed bucket and *bang* they know nothing. A vet turning up with a syringe is always going to fret a horse before you even get down to the actual injecting. I prefer the quick way
 
elliefiz said:
ycbm, I dont take to speculating on random Internet forums. I haven't decided to take it upon myself to decide these horses have gone abroad for meat when really he just loads them up for a jaunt around the countryside. Most local horse people know where the horses are destined for. Needless to say it's not loving homes to be fed carrots by a pony mad child. He has not been secretive about what he does nor about how little thought he gives to the horses welfare. Local people did a fundraiser on Facebook for hay for the horses because of the sorry state of them and because the RSPCA did nothing.
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Do you 100% know they are going abroad as I very much doubt it ! if they are as you describe poor he wont cover the ferry and diesel money exporting them. There are plenty of outlets in this country if you know were to look you dont get much but would sure beat the income from export to the continent and the hoops you have to climb through.
 
elliefiz said:
The people I know aren't breeding for meat. They acquire the horses from elsewhere. There is sometimes foals born but more due to lack of any control than deliberate breeding. As you said you wish to incentivise the production of horse meat to make it a more valuable commodity and in turn people will be more considerate of horse welfare. How would you do that? In a free market the price is set by demand, there is a demand for horse meat, mainly on the continent and horses are sent there to feed that demand. Unless there is a huge rise in the number of people eating horse meat, the demand is not going to increase, so unless you suggest some sort of government backed scheme to fix a price for the meat then I have no idea how to make the meat worth more than it currently is valued at. And whatever the current value is, it's enough that people are still getting involved in the horse meat market and making some sort of profit because otherwise why are they doing it?.

I mentioned the American kill pens in another post. The USA has banned horse slaughter even for pet food. However horses can still be shipped to South America, with Mexico being one of the biggest consumers of horse meat in the world. As a result there is a market for horses to go for meat and kill pens have sprung up which is where the purchased horses are held until they ship out for slaughter. These kill pens are atrocious places where horse welfare is a dirty word. I have been to one personally and it was horrific. But taking the emotion out of the situation, this shows that there currently exists a market in the USA for horse meat. Why then have all the huge ranches out in the USA not stopped farming cattle and switched to farming horses for meat? After all there must be money in it considering the hundreds of horses that were in the kill pen I visited. These horses come from auctions and race tracks, they are not mass farmed like cattle. And the reason for this is that they are too expensive to produce for meat, far more expensive than cattle, sheep or pigs. It is not financially viable to raise horses for meat, if it was everyone would be doing it, especially in the USA where a huge market exists for the meat in South America. There is absolutely no need to recreate that sort of situation here. It perpetuates a never ending cycle in which rescues are set up to buy horses from the kill pens, which brings us right back to the same scenario that the OP posted about.
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Just goes to prove banning slaughter for meat in the states did a ******* lot of good for horse welfare.
 
EQUIDAE said:
Having home killed many sheep and pigs I too would always opt for the bullet for a horse. Head in feed bucket and *bang* they know nothing. A vet turning up with a syringe is always going to fret a horse before you even get down to the actual injecting. I prefer the quick way
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Thats why I hate a lot of vets wont shoot without sedating ! the last one here the vet got sent away when they refused without sedative ,luckily I have the means myself to do it however I dont like doing it but I owe it to them at the end.
 
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There is nothing wrong with horses going for meat. What is wrong is there being no other place for horses to go; horses, IMO, should not be bred for meat - there are enough other animals to fulfil that purpose. The meat trade is a useful overflow, but the problem remains an oversupply of unwanted horses. STOP overbreeding and you stop the horse meat trade.
 
popsdosh said:
I am fully aware of the economics of producing meat as thats part of my business dont think youll find many beef/sheep units paying £200/acre rent
I really dont see where you get the idea that I think people can make money out of selling horses for meat or that I am advocating horse fattening units. however if for example you could get £250 for a TB for slaughter which isnt unrealistic as they were around the £400 pound mark not so long ago are you not going to keep it in better nick and end its days sooner than if its going to cost you £150 to dispose of if you neglect it and it has no worth . Thats why a market for slaughter horses means better welfare not that anybody gets rich just creates an outlet that gives a small return.
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You are right, its uneconomic to pay £250 acre rent, but the farmers who are getting money for bio fuel crops are renting will so taking all the spare land so there is less land available to rent for grazing. There is just not enough spare cheap land to fatten these animals, or hold them with reasonable welfare standards.
I live near Newmarket, I have been to the studs and the sales and £250 TB is the waste product of an industry that gambles on producing a winner a 2 years old. The resulting 'waste' is not produced for profit and its production will cost far more than its end value.
I know knackermen who take horses for killing and they were being given horses by people who could not afford to keep them or euthanize themselves, last time I spoke to one they would only buy the £250 TB with a clean passport.
The black and whites that are bred without thought do not have passports, so could not go in the food chain, and if they did the cost of getting them to a good weight would with proper welfare standards would outweigh what they would get on the hook or on the hoof. If beef producers can not get enough money for a good product how difficult is it going to be to get people to buy ethically produced horsemeat.
The hill ponies and natives that are sold straight from their mothers to be killed under passport delegation rules, so the producer does not have to passport them has not produced high welfare standards in fact the opposite. My conclusion is to make the breeding of poor quality animals financially punitive, if you breed it you have to passport it before its weaned, about three months and increase the cost of chipping and passports and use the money to enforce existing regulations. Once the foal is on the ground its too late.
 
EQUIDAE said:
A vet turning up with a syringe is always going to fret a horse before you even get down to the actual injecting. I prefer the quick way
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no, not necessarily. my old horse, who had a lot of vet work done on him, loved the vet and any visitor really-he assumed anyone was there to see him anyway. He wasn't remotely fretting or stressed by any of it. I have another pony that I would not choose injection for but for some, it's completely fine.

I've seen a lot of animals done by all the different methods, noone should be put off by internet experiences or opinions of any one else-choose whats right for the animal and the owner.
 
Getting back to the original post, surely buying from the meat man is only lining his pockets and encouraging to continue. I volunteered at the rescue in question in the OP and rescue is the last word I would use to describe it. But that's a more personal issue and not really relevant to this post. While I don't want animals to be killed for glue etc, buying from the meat man is only encouraging this industry and putting even more animals at risk.
 
Tumbleweed-tumbling said:
Getting back to the original post, surely buying from the meat man is only lining his pockets and encouraging to continue. I volunteered at the rescue in question in the OP and rescue is the last word I would use to describe it. But that's a more personal issue and not really relevant to this post. While I don't want animals to be killed for glue etc, buying from the meat man is only encouraging this industry and putting even more animals at risk.
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It is very obviously encouraging him and we only have their word they were destined for the meat trade, the point is they only have to mention the meat man and a sob story and the donations flood in.

What worries me is they are rehomed so quickly without proper assessment and some of these are touted as childrens ponies, this could be an accident waiting to happen, how does anyone know they dont have behavioural problems such as being very traffic shy, habitual bolter etc.
 
popsdosh said:
Violent is an emotive way to describe shooting a horse in truth they wont even hear the bang the only violence is in the owners mind ., Have seen to many on the race track ,and others done by injection to ever believe they have a better end by injection..
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That was my point :)
 
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