Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[windand rain]

At 15 it might be good for her to lose weight sensibly but unless she wants to she never will. Once both are fit if she still weighs 13st it would be beneficial for her to try diet changes or her weight will creep up. People are getting heavier and being lighter always makes it better for the horse. I am speaking from experience I was 17 st as a young woman. Stable weight was 13st and now as an old woman am trying to be healthy and am 10st7lbs. It has taken my lifetime to realise how much better I feel. At 15 you need to be tactful

 

[ihatework]

Tbh they last 6-8 weeks since having horse I do think she looks like she’s slimmed down abit.
Thing is she has Lipedema (like myself) so carries her weight on her legs. No amount of dieting or exercise will get rid of it sadly.

There is no easy answer unfortunately.
The more she does around the horses the fitter she will get.
I’d turn this into a project for both horse and rider and do a 50/50 combo of ridden and in-hand work. If she learns how to work on long lines it will help develop the horses back whilst increasing rider exercise!

 

[PapaverFollis]

So a parent discussing weight management with their child will cause an ED but posting a picture of them on the internet for potential criticism of their weight will be perfectly fine and not cause any issues at all?

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

Maybe she has lost abit lol. Il get her to weigh herself once she gets up.

 

[southerncomfort]

Regarding children, could the issue be presented more as ensuring that the child hasn't outgrown the pony, rather than being too heavy?

So it could be an all round check of height and weight of pony and height and weight of the child.

I don't know how you can get round the issue of weighing children, it's a very difficult thing and would have to be done with the utmost sensitivity.

I suspect most parents are well aware when their child has outgrown/become too heavy for their pony but they can't afford a bigger mount.

It's all very difficult, but if these conversations were a routine part of horse welfare I don't think their would be as much sensitivity around it.

And I do think it's easy to get these conversations wrong. I used to attend an ED support group. One of the men there had been told by his doctor that he needed to lose weight immediately before he started suffering severe health consequences. He put the fear of God in to him and a few months later his doctor was referring him to an ED therapist because he was so thin and couldn't stop dieting even though he'd long ago reached his target weight.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge! Wow.

 

[southerncomfort]

Maybe she has lost abit lol. Il get her to weigh herself once she gets up.

I would strongly advise you to remove these pictures immediately.

 

[Cortez]

Surely "disordered eating" causes both underweight and overweight? Eating too much is just as disordered as anorexia?

 

[ihatework]

Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge! Wow.

I agree, this is really unfair on your child. It’s one thing to talk about strategies, generically, to help. But critiquing a teenager too closely is really unfair and potentially damaging.
You need to address this sensitively and privately at home.

 

[Glitter's fun]

I thought it was 20%? So do I tell my 15 year old she’s too big for her horse? Or that she needs to lose weight and possibly cause an ED?

You don't tell her anything - she's practically an adult. I gather from another thread that the horse is on loan to you? This demonstrates the advantages of loaning, especially for people who are still growing. If , when you have done the maths, you both realize she is needing a bigger mount , then of course the horse should go back to its owner unless she makes a decision to lose some weight.

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

We are actually buying her, we were loaning but about to go through with buying her.
horse is 15.2 so assumed she would last her a while? The bond they both have got together is amazing and would be a shame to not go through with the purchase because said horses temperament is absolutely amazing and they have both grown together in such a short period of time. Arghhh. Going to talk to daughter at some point. I think she’s aware she needs to stay or lose weight.

 

[windand rain]

Think it's time for the conversation if she wants that horse she should be willing to at least try and maintain her weight and perhaps reduce it sensibly. She is probably not too heavy for now

 

[Thedarksideofthemoon]

Completely agree. Will talk to her once she’s up. I think she’s aware, we are quite an open family. Like I said she knows he has lipodema and sees how much I struggle so knows she has to keep her weight down. Hopefully the picking two wheelbarrows full of poo a day will help haha

 

[Glitter's fun]

I like the idea of both horse and rider getting fitter & putting muscle on by more ground work.
The 20% & 15% are estimates & research is ongoing. Its said that 20 is for gentle hacking & 15 for more strenuous work but these are upper limits not ideals & its lower for a young or unfit horse and for an unfit or unbalanced rider.

 

[southerncomfort]

Surely "disordered eating" causes both underweight and overweight? Eating too much is just as disordered as anorexia?

Absolutely. I have a family member who has been diagnosed with an over eating ED. Unfortunately she doesn't appear to be receiving the support she needs at the moment.

I think a lot of us have a complicated relationship with food and self image.

 

[McFluff]

I've read this whole thread with the realisation that when it comes to weight limits, we treat inanimate kit better than we treat living, breathing horses. Nobody argues with, or is offended by, a weight limit on a piece of sporting equipment, such as a climbing harness, a bicycle, a kayak, a ski binding, a bit of gymnastic kit etc. etc. - people seem to accept that physical weight (actual, not guessed based on 'look') is a very important part of the safety assessment. So if a person is too heavy for a bit of kit, they either don't take part, or they use a stronger bit of kit.

Horses would actually benefit if we thought of their carrying capacity more akin to a bit of sporting kit. The challenge of course is that we don't have an agreed way to calculate the 'limit' - and the 'safety' issue is actually the horses welfare, not an actual danger to the human. This to me does not excuse our obligation to try and find a way to assess carrying capacity and then make sure people know what that is for each animal (or how to calculate it - which I suspect is why the 15-20% rule has been put forward), then make the same assessment on whether they should ride that horse as they would if they were assessing a bit of sports equipment. At my work, as an example, we don't have to weigh climbers, nor 'guess' whether they 'look' too heavy - people take responsibility themselves. Probably because kit failure would seriously injure or kill them. The weight limit on the sports kit is not judging them, it is a very clear guide of 'this harness is rated to a weight limit of 80kg', so if the person weighs more than that, they know it doesn't suit them (and is likely to fail with severe consequences for them).

I wonder if the emotional issue here is that people are saying that person x 'looks' too big for horse y. Whereas what should happen is that person x knows they weight xxkg, and that horse y can carry xxkg, so they are either OK or not. And if not they don't ride horse y, instead they go and find horse z, who can carry xxkg.

The added complication with horses is saddle fit for the rider, so you could be an OK weight, but be the wrong shape to fit the saddle correctly, which then makes you not the right match for the horse.

 

[Caol Ila]

Do you work at a climbing wall, McFluff? I'm trying to remember if I had to state my weight when I joined my local wall. It was a long time ago (been a member there forever. I think so. I think there was a box for weight, and I wrote it. Taking some friends there this afternoon and signing them in as guests. I bet there will be a box for weight in the form.

You're right - when it's a human safety issue, like a ski binding or a climbing harness, people just get on with it and ask.

 

[ester]

I’ve been over the weight limit on one of my bikes, but it didn’t mind at least.

 

[McFluff]

Do you work at a climbing wall, McFluff? I'm trying to remember if I had to state my weight when I joined my local wall. It was a long time ago (been a member there forever. I think so. I think there was a box for weight, and I wrote it. Taking some friends there this afternoon and signing them in as guests. I bet there will be a box for weight in the form.

You're right - when it's a human safety issue, like a ski binding or a climbing harness, people just get on with it and ask.

Yes - or rather a company that has a climbing arena (I don't work directly in the arena as I'm in 'head office') - and yes, weight is part of the initial assessment to climb.

Fair point Ester - I'm sure you'd have taken it on the chin if your bike had broken.

And I suppose that's my point, a bit of kit doesn't 'hurt' when it breaks. It just breaks and is either fixed or replaced. We shouldn't do this to a living being...

 

[PapaverFollis]

I wrote and deleted a similar post a little while back McFluff (the conversation changed course before I posted) and completely agree. If horses became dangerous to human riders when overloaded we'd soon discover our ability to talk about rider weight... but because it is just damaging to the horse then we have to be very sensitive and careful.

I understand the issues around eating disorders but contend that it is a trade off. Possible risk of triggering ED in a few vs horse welfare and possible risk of losing equestrianism altogether if we start to lose our social licence because people don't like to see over-laden horses... ALSO the risk of people just being overweight and not understanding that it is not healthy AND straining the health care systems etc etc. Sometimes there is no perfect solution. It seems to me that bring able to discuss weight in neutral way and there being adequate mental health support for those who go on to struggle as a result would be ideal. But "adequate mental health support" is like saying "magical sparkly unicorn"

I understand the tension and concern.

To be honest, as someone has already said, I don't think the root of ED is necessarily actual concerns about weight and food. It seems to me to often be about fear and control.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

For me this whole discussion is conflating being overweight for one’s “body type” (for want of a better description) and being too heavy for the horse one is riding. The two are not synonymous.

if you’re overweight for your body type then as long as you’re not too heavy for the horse it’s nobody’s business. I do though agree that at some point if you’re very overweight then you can’t possibly mount or ride in a way that would be comfortable for any horse. There seems to be a fixation on being fat or obese when in reality a fit man could weight equally as much or a muscular fit woman for that matter.

There is still also the overall feeling that I’m picking up is that being overweight is because you are a bad person or lazy or have some other terrible character flaw. The reality is that many people spend their lives dieting and trying to change their habits. I’ve been dieting on and off since my late teens (now 52) and I wish I were as fat now as I thought I was back then! (I’m currently 4 stone heavier) I get on top of it am successful in keeping it off and then gradually I fall back into bad patterns through stress and life issues usually, now peri menopause is the main issue. Fortunately I still fit in 15% rule though currently about 3-4 stone overweight. I think I’d still be hung drawn and quartered by some people on here though.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The added complication with horses is saddle fit for the rider, so you could be an OK weight, but be the wrong shape to fit the saddle correctly, which then makes you not the right match for the horse.

This is a side on pic from the Sue Dyson pilot study, showing the four different riders in the same saddle on the same horse.

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.13085

Only the light and moderate riders (first and second left) were judged to fit in the saddle.

Also note that the 'heavy' rider (second from the right) in the study looks to be fairly slim, although taller. This is all about what weight a horse should be expected to carry, not whether someone looks slim or not. Those of us who are taller have a smaller pool of suitable horses to choose from.


Ester, cycles tend not to give advance warning of finding their rider too heavy by giving you shorter strides, they work fine or they collapse under you!

 

[ponynutz]

Yes, please don't post pictures of your child on a forum.

Also broach the subject very carefully. I understand you want to help her but being made to feel your weight is a bad thing is not the way - that happened to me and it's something I've struggled with for years because of it (but the other way around).

@Sussexbythesea exactly this - you've put my point much better than I did.

 

[palo1]

For me this whole discussion is conflating being overweight for one’s “body type” (for want of a better description) and being too heavy for the horse one is riding. The two are not synonymous.

if you’re overweight for your body type then as long as you’re not too heavy for the horse it’s nobody’s business. I do though agree that at some point if you’re very overweight then you can’t possibly mount or ride in a way that would be comfortable for any horse. There seems to be a fixation on being fat or obese when in reality a fit man could weight equally as much or a muscular fit woman for that matter.

There is still also the overall feeling that I’m picking up is that being overweight is because you are a bad person or lazy or have some other terrible character flaw. The reality is that many people spend their lives dieting and trying to change their habits. I’ve been dieting on and off since my late teens (now 52) and I wish I were as fat now as I thought I was back then! (I’m currently 4 stone heavier) I get on top of it am successful in keeping it off and then gradually I fall back into bad patterns through stress and life issues usually, now peri menopause is the main issue. Fortunately I still fit in 15% rule though currently about 3-4 stone overweight. I think I’d still be hung drawn and quartered by some people on here though.

See I haven't read the thread at all like that and have understood that most posters happily accept that we all come in different shapes and sizes and as long as that isn't causing difficulty for our horses, then that is entirely immaterial. What is important is equine welfare. I think the discussion has been quite open and understanding of people's sensitivity around the way they feel about their bodies (including potentially overweight ones) but the real direction has been about discussing the fair and ethical weight a horse should carry and how to promote that. There is an issue with obesity in our population which likely means that many of us (including me) would ideally weigh less and that would be even better for our horses. And ourselves. Even if we are under 15% of our riding horse's weight. I think too, it is difficult to find a comfortable place to talk about weight issues because of the way that the way we look has become so loaded with the value we have in this society. That is very difficult to escape from. I am sure we have ALL felt uncomfortable about our self image at some point. I guess if you are too heavy for sporting equipment that is one thing, but horses and our involvement with them goes deeper really as well as involving the welfare and experiences of a living, breathing, intelligent and emotional creature. I think as we love our horses we all find it hard to see the dissonance in doing things with them that contradict the best interests of one or both parties. There are several ways of doing mental gymnastics around keeping and 'using' animals. The weight at which we ride is one thing that we might be able to quantify though. I don't get the sense that anyone posting on this thread feels that being overweight indicates being a bad person or having a character flaw; it is much, much more about wider society, the value we have given to ideas like 'choice', 'variety' and 'luxury' - especialiy in relation to food. I love all those things, please don't think I am suggesting some form of neo-puritanism but we have to negotiate those in relation to our own health as well as that of our horses. For some it will be easy, for others (and I write as one of those!) it is much harder.

 

[Winters100]

Just stop it.

And by "it" I mean posting pictures of you child for strangers to judge! Wow.

Have to say that I agree with this. I have no problem with talking to my children about weight issues, they need to see it as a normal thing that everyone has to manage. I have on occasions seen one gaining a little extra fat and have discussed it with them, sometimes as a result of them raising it, and sometimes me. This is not to shame them, but to help them to recognise the difference between increased body fat and normal growth, and to be able to support them in rectifying the issue in a healthy way. Since they have never been left to pile on the pounds it is enough just to cut back a little and to keep the same weight while they grow, thus reducing their body fat. They are not embarrassed about this, and they have not developed any sort of disordered eating. Surely it is better to control these things and to discuss them with your child while they are still in a normal weight range than to wait until they are overweight, because a child who has not got to the overweight stage will be much likely be less sensitive about it, and it is much more quickly and easily solved. That having been said I would never post pictures of them for others to comment. It also seems unnecessary as anyone reading this thread can see the general opinion that 15% with tack is the top limit, so how she looks is immaterial.

 

[southerncomfort]

I wrote and deleted a similar post a little while back McFluff (the conversation changed course before I posted) and completely agree. If horses became dangerous to human riders when overloaded we'd soon discover our ability to talk about rider weight... but because it is just damaging to the horse then we have to be very sensitive and careful.

I understand the issues around eating disorders but contend that it is a trade off. Possible risk of triggering ED in a few vs horse welfare and possible risk of losing equestrianism altogether if we start to lose our social licence because people don't like to see over-laden horses... ALSO the risk of people just being overweight and not understanding that it is not healthy AND straining the health care systems etc etc. Sometimes there is no perfect solution. It seems to me that bring able to discuss weight in neutral way and there being adequate mental health support for those who go on to struggle as a result would be ideal. But "adequate mental health support" is like saying "magical sparkly unicorn"

I understand the tension and concern.

To be honest, as someone has already said, I don't think the root of ED is necessarily actual concerns about weight and food. It seems to me to often be about fear and control.

It can be either or both. And it can also be about self image and self esteem. It's not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean that conversations around healthy weight and horse welfare should be avoided.

 

[Cortez]

Having grown up in a family that had no problem whatsoever in saying "you're getting a bit porky, don't eat so much" I find all this tiptoeing around, not saying the fat word, not wanting to tell people they're overweight, terrified of saying anything in case it triggers anorexia, fat shaming, body positivity, etc., etc., quite bemusing. Being fat IS NOT NORMAL, it's not a positive thing, and you shouldn't feel good about it. Nor should you feel ashamed of course, but it is something that you can and should do something about. And if you are too fat to ride a particular horse, then you most certainly should not ride it and your feelings about the matter are pretty much inconsequential. I've never been particularly fat, I am a normal weight for my height, so no, I don't have much insight into how all this makes overweight people feel, but I have often had conversations with people who were fat and too unfit to ride their horses - and I've never lost a student because of it.

 

[palo1]

Having grown up in a family that had no problem whatsoever in saying "you're getting a bit porky, don't eat so much" I find all this tiptoeing around, not saying the fat word, not wanting to tell people they're overweight, terrified of saying anything in case it triggers anorexia, fat shaming, body positivity, etc., etc., quite bemusing. Being fat IS NOT NORMAL, it's not a positive thing, and you shouldn't feel good about it. Nor should you feel ashamed of course, but it is something that you can and should do something about. And if you are too fat to ride a particular horse, then you most certainly should not ride it and your feelings about the matter are pretty much inconsequential. I've never been particularly fat, I am a normal weight for my height, so no, I don't have much insight into how all this makes overweight people feel, but I have often had conversations with people who were fat and too unfit to ride their horses - and I've never lost a student because of it.

Phew!! Thank you for saying this. I have been fat. I have been fat and confident and fat and crippled with shame. I felt much better when no-one tiptoed round it but had a straight conversation that was both totally clear and compassionate. Not verbatim but effectively 'You are overweight and it is making you miserable as well as vulnerable to illness. Would you like to do something about it?' There were lots of reasons I put on weight but only one 'how'.

I have to have really difficult conversations with people about other things and the one thing I know people value is clear honesty. We need that more.

 

[SussexbytheXmasTree]

See I haven't read the thread at all like that and have understood that most posters happily accept that we all come in different shapes and sizes and as long as that isn't causing difficulty for our horses, then that is entirely immaterial. What is important is equine welfare. I think the discussion has been quite open and understanding of people's sensitivity around the way they feel about their bodies (including potentially overweight ones) but the real direction has been about discussing the fair and ethical weight a horse should carry and how to promote that. There is an issue with obesity in our population which likely means that many of us (including me) would ideally weigh less and that would be even better for our horses. And ourselves. Even if we are under 15% of our riding horse's weight. I think too, it is difficult to find a comfortable place to talk about weight issues because of the way that the way we look has become so loaded with the value we have in this society. That is very difficult to escape from. I am sure we have ALL felt uncomfortable about our self image at some point. I guess if you are too heavy for sporting equipment that is one thing, but horses and our involvement with them goes deeper really as well as involving the welfare and experiences of a living, breathing, intelligent and emotional creature. I think as we love our horses we all find it hard to see the dissonance in doing things with them that contradict the best interests of one or both parties. There are several ways of doing mental gymnastics around keeping and 'using' animals. The weight at which we ride is one thing that we might be able to quantify though. I don't get the sense that anyone posting on this thread feels that being overweight indicates being a bad person or having a character flaw; it is much, much more about wider society, the value we have given to ideas like 'choice', 'variety' and 'luxury' - especialiy in relation to food. I love all those things, please don't think I am suggesting some form of neo-puritanism but we have to negotiate those in relation to our own health as well as that of our horses. For some it will be easy, for others (and I write as one of those!) it is much harder.

Phew!! Thank you for saying this. I have been fat. I have been fat and confident and fat and crippled with shame. I felt much better when no-one tiptoed round it but had a straight conversation that was both totally clear and compassionate. Not verbatim but effectively 'You are overweight and it is making you miserable as well as vulnerable to illness. Would you like to do something about it?' There were lots of reasons I put on weight but only one 'how'.

I have to have really difficult conversations with people about other things and the one thing I know people value is clear honesty. We need that more.

So you had no idea until someone else pointed it out that you were fat?

 

[Winters100]

So you had no idea until someone else pointed it out that you were fat?

I do not believe that Palo was saying that she was not aware before, simply that someone addressing it in a straightforward way highlighted the issue and pushed her to do something, or that it enabled her to accept help. It is really difficult for many people to manage their weight, and I am with Palo on this, it can be really helpful for people to point it out, especially at an early stage when we can be in danger of reaching for a glass of wine and ignoring it rather than going out to do some exercise.