Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[Morgan123]

Just pondering this recently, hope I don't offend anyone but am just interested in what people think. Riding schools now tend to have a 20% rule, but to my knowledge none of the disciplines have a weight limit for competing, and some disciplines (showing) frequently have people who are let's say pretty big on their horses/ponies. Obviously some shows, e.g. Gt Yorks and HOYS, are known for having people who will overtly invite riders (e.g. adults riding in ponies) to have them and the pony weighed to see if they are under the 20% rule - but this hasn't been taken up particularly in other shows and other disciplines. And obviously it's not a lot of fun for the vet/steward/person being asked to be weighed! And we all know 20% is problematic as a concept, but it's the best we have right now....

Just curious as to views on this. Should there be a rule - if so, what? and how should it be implemented in a way that is sensitive to everyone, but protects the horses/ponies welfare? If there is a rule, should it apply equally for all disciplines, or should some (e.g. higher level of sport? Anything involving jumping) be stricter than others?!

 

[Birker2020]

I'm personally sick of seeing all this riders weight stuff - (that's not having a go at you Morgan123)

It's so dependent on a lot of factors including horses height/frame/age and what the activity is or how long the activity is for. I wouldn't dream of getting on a 15.2hh TB but I'd happily step onto a 16.2hh M/W WB or ISH.

Its about as subjective as BMI and causes as much friction.
Surely common sense should prevail?

this for example appalls me

 

[ihatework]

There are far too many variables unfortunately to be able to write a specific rule that is fair and transparent.

Unfortunately.

Far too many people riding unsuitable mounts.

 

[poiuytrewq]

It just wouldn’t be possible. No way to enforce a weight limit on peoples own horses at shows.
I agree that many people are too heavy but don’t think there’s anything that can be done about it.

 

[stangs]

In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time.

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Whilst yes, deliberate underhorsing is an issue, unfortunately it's so commonplace that shows that rigourously enforced a - for instance - 20% rule probably wouldn't get the support needed to run. Riders would take their entry fees elsewhere. Although I'm not sure how anyone can say, 'I'm sick of discussions on rider weight' when it's such a welfare issue - though one does wonder if it's a guilty conscience talking...

 

[shortstuff99]

Pretty sure they do all have a rule that says horse should be of a suitable size for the rider.

 

[ihatework]

Pretty sure they do all have a rule that says horse should be of a suitable size for the rider.

But that is where it is subjective and very difficult to apply

ETA - it naturally comes into force where weight causes lameness, horse struggles sufficiently that you get resistance/elimination. That is the reality. It shouldn’t be.

 

[rara007]

In endurance, I don’t think it’d be particularly necessary as the horses get vet checked. Presumably, a horse that’s seriously overloaded wouldn’t recover in time.

With other disciplines, I’d like to see stewards pull up riders who look too big, and for that decision to then be disputed using a generous 20/25% rule (surely, even a very fit weight carrier shouldn’t be carrying more than that?). But, logistically, I can’t imagine that happening, just wouldn’t be practical. You’d either be pulling people beforehand, disrupting their warm up, or afterwards, at which point the horse has already had to struggle through it.

I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!

 

[Birker2020]

Although I'm not sure how anyone can say, 'I'm sick of discussions on rider weight' when it's such a welfare issue - though one does wonder if it's a guilty conscience talking...

No guilty conscience. Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB. I don't think I look too heavy. I look big but not too big. And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins. I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.

 

[palo1]

Well there certainly could be relatively simple way of checking horse/rider compatibility - every competitor could be weighed in before their class and every competing horse could have a weigh-in/weigh tape applied. It wouldn't be exact but it would be better than nothing and it would signal to anyone who wanted to compete that they needed to be sure they were within limits. It would be more objective than done by eye and it wouldn't disqualify any horse or rider as long as the partnership was compatible and ethical (ie under 20% and preferably 15%). It would require very tactful and clear stewarding/communication but it could be done. Weighing in tents at PTPs are absolutely standard so they could be at shows too. You would have to have a steward or offical weigh taping the horses too of course.

 

[ihatework]

Major flaw in that Palo. The fatter the horse the bigger the weigh tape will say they can carry. Whereas in reality the less they should carry given they are lugging around their own flab. As we all know from the show ring, evaluation of overweight horses isn’t so straightforward either ?

 

[windand rain]

Same fiddles will apply in this as well as they do in height certificates I remember ponies being measured before entering the ring until some top folk argued that tense excited horses grew. Now my measured 132cm pony is by far the smallest in the class at shows in fact in spite of being chunky looks like she'd fit in the 122cm class

 

[humblepie]

I am rubbish at maths but just did quick calcuation - 500 kg thoroughbred, 20% is 100 kg, which is over 15 stone. Is that right?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

My 18.3hh warmblood was 700kg.. Meaning he would apparently take a rider of 140kg or nearly 22 stone which is utterly ridiculous. A man of this weight did ride him for a while and I always wonder if that contributed to the degeneration of his joints which ultimately resulted in PTS.

I don't think anyone over 16.5 stone should be riding any animal full stop; including HW cobs, ID's and heavies, not even for a walk down the lane - and if anyone plans to tell me I'm being out of order and can't judge, I myself am above 16 stone and it's the only reason I don't currently ride (and have turned down offers of rides on other people's horses despite desperately missing it).

You are sitting on an animals spine purely for your own enjoyment and privilege, you are not entitled to do so. You owe it to that animal to do everything you can to ensure that you don't physcially damage them, and being a fair weight is one of them - it stuns me how many people claim to do everything they can for their animals, yet what that actually means is that they will only do what they can if it suits them. I am sick to the back teeth of seeing horrendously overweight people ride and then wonder why things go wrong, or think that it's okay because why shouldn't they be able to do something they want to do? The best fitting saddle, constant physio, great turnout etc will not compensate for the fact that you are putting huge strain on your horses bones and soft tissues.

Some will also say 'but what about men that ride'.. all men can be sub 16.5 stone if they make an effort, and if they can't then they shouldn't ride. Not all sports are for everyone; take up carriage driving if you need to be around horses. Yes, Highlands used to be used for carrying grown men and stags etc, but science has progressed since then and we now know how detrimental it is to them. We also used to electrocute people to cure 'sadness', times have moved on and understanding has progressed, we can't keep using the past to justufy the current.

If this upsets anyone then that is a you problem, this is my opinion.

 

[Morgan123]

Interesting thoughts! I agree - the "common sense" approach would be lovely, but you only have to go to a county show and watch the pony warm up ring to see it's not adhered to, and neither are the rules.
I kind of feel like, yes the 20% rule is obviusly problematic and there's massive variation in individual horses, muscle tone, conformation, training, what they're used to etc.... but is it so difficult that the best option is really just shrugging our shoulders and letting people get on with it?! I don't know, I definitely don't have any answers, I'm literally just thinking out loud having seen some uncomfortable scenes (which I recognise is me just seeing a snapshot!). I personally think I feel like more needs to be done, but what, by who, and how, I do not know!

 

[Morgan123]

The thing about endurance is really interesting too. for FEI they have to carry 11 stone - I know people who don't compete their small Arabs at FEI even though they'd like to, because they feel that's not fair on the horse over 100km or more (100km is minimum distance for FEI). Many would say that arabs are "designed" to carry men - maybe they are - does that make it right? Where is the line?! Such a tricky issue.

 

[Morgan123]

I am rubbish at maths but just did quick calcuation - 500 kg thoroughbred, 20% is 100 kg, which is over 15 stone. Is that right?

yes, that includes tack. So it's not a low limit!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tack and riding clothing adds approx 2.5 stone to nekked rider weight. So your 15 stone limit at the overly generous 20% rule for a 500kg horse means a max nekked rider weight of 12.5 stone.

I work to 15%.

 

[ihatework]

I completely agree with you AShetlandBitMeOnce.

When I hit 15.5 stone I pretty much stopped riding other than occasional hacking on bigger horses.

I then gave myself a whopping kick up the derrier and I am now sub 11 stone. The difference in my fitness and balance is immense.

 

[TotalMadgeness]

After being away from dressage for a long time I was at two dressage comps at the weekend one BD and the other RC. I didn't spot any obese riders at the BD (but then I was only there in the morning) and while I was there I would say there was only one large lady riding but she was small in stature and the horse was big strong and fit. In the main the horses there were sleek and fit looking, even the cobby types - didn't spot any horses that looked overweight.

At the RC however there were definitely a lot more larger ladies and at least one obese one. There were also a number of horses who were clearly overweight and went huffing and puffing round their tests.

I would welcome some sort of weight guidance for both horses and riders in dressage but I really can't see how this could be fairly, or kindly, applied.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

..

 

[FieldOrnaments]

"I think you are (somewhat) underhorsed and should, for the animal's welfare as well as your own comfort, consider a larger mount." Is surely fine.
You could escalate to "well, unfortunately you really are too large for this animal" if needed.
I don't think such phrasing unkind.

 

[SEL]

The thing about endurance is really interesting too. for FEI they have to carry 11 stone - I know people who don't compete their small Arabs at FEI even though they'd like to, because they feel that's not fair on the horse over 100km or more (100km is minimum distance for FEI). Many would say that arabs are "designed" to carry men - maybe they are - does that make it right? Where is the line?! Such a tricky issue.

I rode a racing fit barb Arabian some years ago overseas. Her regular rider must have been 16+ stone. He swapped with me for a day and she barely broke a sweat - but she was heavily muscled and incredibly fit.

Both my drafts are over 650kg but with short backs so you certainly wouldn't want 20% on them (although they'd pull their own weight) I'm at the top end of the Dales pony's weight on the 15% guideline but so long as you could get your bum in a 16" saddle I think she'd carry a fair bit more.

I have a limit to my weight where if I nudge it on the scales then I need to give myself a boot up the backside. I ride 2 ponies, one is a baby and the other has KS. It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it

 

[FieldOrnaments]

It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it

This is the crux of the matter, yet I feel is what so many riders today decide not to think of. (I cannot simply believe someone who is, say, >17st, who gets on a living animal's back, is not aware of the negative impact they are having due to simple naivety.)

 

[Morgan123]

Well exactly - most people agree there should be a a limit, 20% is pretty generous (albeit complicated) but that people still don’t adhere to it. Do shows, and riding clubs I guess, have a responsibility to address that?

 

[Upthecreek]

I rode a racing fit barb Arabian some years ago overseas. Her regular rider must have been 16+ stone. He swapped with me for a day and she barely broke a sweat - but she was heavily muscled and incredibly fit.

Both my drafts are over 650kg but with short backs so you certainly wouldn't want 20% on them (although they'd pull their own weight) I'm at the top end of the Dales pony's weight on the 15% guideline but so long as you could get your bum in a 16" saddle I think she'd carry a fair bit more.

I have a limit to my weight where if I nudge it on the scales then I need to give myself a boot up the backside. I ride 2 ponies, one is a baby and the other has KS. It's a privilege not a right to get on their backs so if that means a diet then so be it

I completely agree with you, but sadly we seem to be living in times where people think they can have it all and aren’t prepared to compromise. Surely if horse riding is your passion that should be your motivation to get to or maintain a weight that is comfortable for the horse to carry?

Never mind showing where the horse isn’t really expected to do strenuous activity. Sadly you see a fair few overweight competitors at one day events where the poor horses are expected to carry them around a course of show jumps and then canter/gallop solidly for 4-6 minutes jumping 15-20 cross country fences. It’s cruel and there is no regulation as far as I am aware.

 

[eahotson]

Many things have to be taken into account.Smaller stockier horses and ponies are often better weight carriers.However I have met and seen ride a British western rider who is at least 6ft2" tall. Nice build for his height, definately not fat.He must weigh at a consertvative estimate 12 stone. A western saddle weighs usually about 2 stone so his horses must carry at least 16stone. He competes very successfully at international level and his horses stay sound for years.He breeds and rides 15hh quite fine quarter horses.
He schools and hacks.His horses are ridden in a long frame and he told me that when he is schooling for a big competition he may sit on the horse for an hour but they actually only do about 20 minutes schooling, the rest being breaks for the horse when it has performed a correct manoeuvre.
I wonder at some modern dressage saddles and also the damage that can be done by harsh and incorrect schooling.I write as someone who does struggle with her weight but is careful and considerate about what I put my bum on and about saddle fit.
I once went to try what I was told was a proper cob, just to find it was a slightly common pony.I refused to get on saying I was too heavy but the owner was heavier than me!!!!

 

[eahotson]

When Criollio stallions are performance tested they have to carry at least 17 stone at a minimum speed for several days.

 

[Barton Bounty]

No guilty conscience. Some horses are weight carriers. This was me around 18.2 stone (I'm 5ft 9 1/2") with my previous 17.1hh MW WB. I don't think I look too heavy. I look big but not too big. And all I did was hack twice a week for 20 mins. I've since lost around 1.5 stone stone.

View attachment 96207

You look fab!
And no you dont look too heavy! I think its important to have enough muscle and top line on your horse to carry you as long as that is present i see no issue. I am also plumper and my horse is a well built tb with fantastic muscle and too line and Has no issue whatsoever carrying me ? but my horse only hacks and id need to lose if I was to be jumping etc ?