Should we ban whips??

Janique said:
A year ago, Switzerland decided to ban whips in flat racing, to show a better picture to the general public.

That caused most of the trainers, owners and jockeys to be angry, they all thought that it would be the end of racing...

Nearly everyone in the industry thought that it was a bad decisions.

Well, a year on, and everyone is happy !

The jockeys are used to it now and everyone as accepted the new rule, it makes me wonder what it wasn't banned before !

Change is always scary at first but i am so glad that they did it !
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Kelly Mark's used to be a jockey.She says there was a race she thought she could win and got her whip out .She won the race but watching herself afterwards on tape she didn't like what she saw.She stopped carrying a whip when racing and said she won more without it.
 
Yes, I'd like spurs gone and quite happy to see whips gone. They're used in anger way too much. People saying they're fine if used "correctly" but what is correct these days? One person's acceptable is not someone else's. Sorry but teach your horses to go without needing these. If you need a whip to get round a SJ course then there's deep issues there!

Nosebands too, get rid of those too!

And yes I've competed for many years and yes from a young age I was taught in PC to give my pony a smack, was told to use grackles etc. I'm mortified looking back, never too late to change.
 
Watching the showjumping last week for the first time in years and now I find the wearing of spurs to be cringe making. I found myself imagining trying to explain why the horses are all clipped out apart from a square on their sides and I would definitely like to see spurs banned before whips .
 
Nonjumper said:
Nothing we do with horses is ethical, when you think about it.

Personally I'd prefer to see spurs go first, then whips. Both are regularly misused, yet both have their place. However you will quickly go down a rabbit hole when thinking of the stuff we do to horses on a daily basis.
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Spurs for sure, I can’t believe that pony riders are allowed them still under rules
 
bonny said:
Watching the showjumping last week for the first time in years and now I find the wearing of spurs to be cringe making. I found myself imagining trying to explain why the horses are all clipped out apart from a square on their sides and I would definitely like to see spurs banned before whips .
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I had the same uncomfortable conversation when watching it with family.
 
When i talked
on here years ago about the use of spurs on several
Occasions I was told, very rudely, I did not understand how to use them correctly.

I wonder if they thought to send helgstrand the same comment

I have never used spurs, never needed them, and even if used er, correctly, would still hold the view that they are not necessary to a rider who understands how train a horse to respond to leg aids at any level.

They are a super aid for those in too much of a rush to get a reaction
 
The worst i have seen with spurs is a lad riding a 3 years old on the track, he kept kicking the horse with them...
His legs moving back and forwards with the spurs.
The young horse was considered lazy and bad tempered...

Needless to say, he died on the track from a fracture, he was pushed too hard and not lazy, just in pain...
The horse raced as a two year old and was in pain all the time, not lazy....
 
paddi22 said:
just playing devils advocate here for debates sake, as regards a horses 'rights', should it have the right to come in from the field and say 'no I don't want to listen to your leg, no I don't want to go forward'? do we even have the right to 'make' them do anything? especially if they don't want to?
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That’s like kids not wanting to get dressed / go for walk / go to school / eat food that’s not sweet etc.
 
LEC said:
BSJA has completely rewritten their rules:

New British Showjumping Rules for 2025
Use of the Padded Baton
1. The Padded Baton may only be used as an aid to support the natural aids in encouraging the horse forward, the Padded Baton may be used to support the shoulder to encourage the horse in the desired direction.
2. The Padded Baton must not be used to discipline or punish the horse/pony nor to vent an Athlete’s temper. Such use is always excessive.
3. If a Horse’s skin is broken or marked, as a result of the use of the Padded Baton, this is always considered excessive.
4. The Padded Baton must not be used more than 3 times in total whilst in the arena.
5. The Padded Baton is not to be used immediately after Refusal, Run Out or Elimination in either the competition or practice arena.
6. The arm must not come above the shoulder and the Padded Baton should contact behind the rider’s leg to reinforce the leg aid.
7. Where the Padded Baton is used to support the shoulder. The rider must retain both hands on the reins and apply contact and or direct pressure with the Padded Baton down the shoulder. No more than three contacts are allowed on the shoulder whilst in the arena.
8. Misuse of the Padded Baton in the arena, practice arena or anywhere on the show ground will result in disciplinary action being taken.
From the 1st January members will only be permitted to use the tack and equipment in the practice arena (with jumps) which is permitted in the competition arena for all levels of national classes.
Draw reins will be permitted to be worn for presentations if needed.
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Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

That really is a very, very poorly written set of rules.

The word "used" has a very vague meaning in this set of rules.

The rules refer to a person identified as the "athlete" and also to a person identified as the "rider".

And the last line referring to draw reins in what is supposed to be the rules concerning use of the "padded baton"...

If I turned in work like that, I'd get a reprimand.
 
The new SJ rules - well the padded batons are completely useless for anything other than making a noise anyway, so we stopped bothering with a whip at all for SJ after the rules changed to only allow those. A tap on the shoulder for a spooking horse used to be a handy thing. With these it did…nothing. So can’t say the new rules make a difference.

Whips in general? I keep thinking of this thread every time I use mine to save our lives (probably quite literally) when my little cob decides she would like to spook away from the bench/horse/ducks into the path of an oncoming articulated lorry. I like living. Pony doesn’t really mind a tap on her shoulder, it wakes her up to the reality of the lorry and saves both of us!
 
maya2008 said:
Whips in general? I keep thinking of this thread every time I use mine to save our lives (probably quite literally) when my little cob decides she would like to spook away from the bench/horse/ducks into the path of an oncoming articulated lorry. I like living. Pony doesn’t really mind a tap on her shoulder, it wakes her up to the reality of the lorry and saves both of us!
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Absolutely this.

No different to stopping someone dashing into traffic by holding their arm.
 
Also lunging a horse (especially an unknown horse ) without a whip is dangerous … I have had horses run in on me and without the whip I may well have been trampled. I personally often lunge my own horses without a whip but would always have one if starting with a horse I didn’t know. I am not sure I have ever made contact with a horse with a lunge whip but being able to send a horse away from you with a crack can be life saving
 
Having seen screaming and shouting stallions at endurance rides, I'd rather ride with a whip in case the stallion and rider parts company, especially if I am riding a mare, I also carry one to help open/shut gates.
 
catkin said:
Absolutely this.

No different to stopping someone dashing into traffic by holding their arm.
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And in time they learn to look before they step out.

But that’s education, something the sport as a whole doesn’t seem to want to invest in. Decent education, beginning with overhauling the BHS system so every instructor knows how to train a young horse and retrain an older one. So people have other things in their toolboxes than whip and spur, from grassroots level to the very top. We can stop selling whips but people will use sticks or pipe or whatever they have to hand. That won’t change things. Education changes things.
 
maya2008 said:
I keep thinking of this thread every time I use mine to save our lives (probably quite literally) when my little cob decides she would like to spook away from the bench/horse/ducks into the path of an oncoming articulated lorry. I like living. Pony doesn’t really mind a tap on her shoulder, it wakes her up to the reality of the lorry and saves both of us!
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100%. This is the only reason I carry a whip out hacking. Personally I feel a whack on the shoulder is better than....death.
 
If whips are banned what will I use to whack the roofs of cars that come too close?! This is my favourite trick to scare the shit out of drivers that think it’s ok to squeeze past me on narrow lanes, followed by me yelling “if I can touch you, you’re too effing close!”
 
Exasperated said:
?? as can saddles, girths, cruppers, leg boots, rugs, ad infinitum.
Far more depends on how the equipment is used, why it is being used, and who is using it.
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When did someone last use a rug to beat up a horse? There is definitely a conceptual difference between a piece of equipment carelessly or ignorantly fitted and something the primary raison d'etre of which is to be an aversive.
 
Personally I would rather carry a schooling whip for walloping cars, emergencies and also sometimes a tickle behind the leg rather than having to boot something along. And I'll be honest I've tickled ponies on the bum when teaching a little and the pony is ignoring their legs BUT I always take the stick off kids when I teach them until I think they've learnt moderation, how to reward the horse to get them forwards and when/how to use the schooling whip properly and without becoming lazy riders that just smack the horse about to get what they want rather than giving clear instructions. I also wouldn't be bothered if they were banned in competition, or even in general. They have uses but you can also use other techniques (the pony in question for the little lesson also is quite aware if I lift my arm and point at them from across the school and tends to listen to child then... in that very clever children's pony way of hahhaa okay I'm going I'm going...)

The saddest thing I've seen and this is just teaching a few kids and adults I'm friends with is people don't seem to reward horses at all, or the idea of motivating them to get what you want has gone the way of the dodo? The yard I grew up on was brutal, but the one thing I'll say for the place when we were backing/breaking/schooling/hunting/jumping/teaching on the school cobs we were constantly being told once they've done what you want to loosen reins give them a pat and verbally reward them, gee them up etc, and you know once they do what you want take your leg off and leave them alone so they know that's what you want? Round here there are only a few schools and the biggest things I see is people completely against the horse looking anywhere but straightforward forwards even out hacking like its a bad habit. And nag nag nagging. Ask for trot, horse trots, keep nagging every bloody stride like what is in it for the poor horse to listen if you harass them every second regardless of the response? And then when those people rock up with spurs? I have had to walk away. I think we are on the edge of social liencing anyway but there has been a huge shift in horsemanship and there is just an extreme lack of knowledge at local level these days and igt's not helping.

That turned into a whole other thing but I think honestly whips are the tip of a very large very scary iceberg. And honestly? We are the titanic.
 
4Hoofed said:
Personally I would rather carry a schooling whip for walloping cars, emergencies and also sometimes a tickle behind the leg rather than having to boot something along. And I'll be honest I've tickled ponies on the bum when teaching a little and the pony is ignoring their legs BUT I always take the stick off kids when I teach them until I think they've learnt moderation, how to reward the horse to get them forwards and when/how to use the schooling whip properly and without becoming lazy riders that just smack the horse about to get what they want rather than giving clear instructions. I also wouldn't be bothered if they were banned in competition, or even in general. They have uses but you can also use other techniques (the pony in question for the little lesson also is quite aware if I lift my arm and point at them from across the school and tends to listen to child then... in that very clever children's pony way of hahhaa okay I'm going I'm going...)

The saddest thing I've seen and this is just teaching a few kids and adults I'm friends with is people don't seem to reward horses at all, or the idea of motivating them to get what you want has gone the way of the dodo? The yard I grew up on was brutal, but the one thing I'll say for the place when we were backing/breaking/schooling/hunting/jumping/teaching on the school cobs we were constantly being told once they've done what you want to loosen reins give them a pat and verbally reward them, gee them up etc, and you know once they do what you want take your leg off and leave them alone so they know that's what you want? Round here there are only a few schools and the biggest things I see is people completely against the horse looking anywhere but straightforward forwards even out hacking like its a bad habit. And nag nag nagging. Ask for trot, horse trots, keep nagging every bloody stride like what is in it for the poor horse to listen if you harass them every second regardless of the response? And then completely agree when those people rock up with spurs? I have had to walk away. I think we are on the edge of social liencing anyway but there has been a huge shift in horsemanship and there is just an extreme lack of knowledge at local level these days and igt's not helping.

That turned into a whole other thing but I think honestly whips are the tip of a very large very scary iceberg. And honestly? We are the titanic.
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Completely agree
 
maya2008 said:
Whips in general? I keep thinking of this thread every time I use mine to save our lives (probably quite literally) when my little cob decides she would like to spook away from the bench/horse/ducks into the path of an oncoming articulated lorry. I like living. Pony doesn’t really mind a tap on her shoulder, it wakes her up to the reality of the lorry and saves both of us!
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Exactly this. When I see this thread it takes me back to a hack I had on Tris when he decided to spin in front of every single vehicle we came across.

If I hadn't had my whip, I don't know if we'd have got home alive.
 
Burnttoast said:
When did someone last use a rug to beat up a horse? There is definitely a conceptual difference between a piece of equipment carelessly or ignorantly fitted and something the primary raison d'etre of which is to be an aversive.
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The comment was about what can cause pain to horses.
If you had ever driven horses, or practised liberty training, you would also understand the primary raisin d’etre of whips is not always aversive, either.
 
Exasperated said:
The comment was about what can cause pain to horses.
If you had ever driven horses, or practised liberty training, you would also understand the primary raisin d’etre of whips is not always aversive, either.
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Yes, and I was drawing a conceptual difference between objects that are meant to be an aversive, and have no other function (spurs primarily, but in ridden horse sport the use of the whip on the horse is always an aversive) and those that cause unintended pain/discomfort by chance, as it were. I used to do liberty and never needed a whip for it.
 
I’m not sure the argument of “if I don’t use my whip, the horse and/or me will die/be injured” is the one for the non-horsey public.

Obviously, as a horse owner/rider, I understand and agree. But that argument risks the counter point of asking why we’re putting horses in those situations in the first place.

I was only arguing for the banning of whips in competition, but I understand it’s the thin edge of the wedge.
 
Burnttoast said:
Yes, and I was drawing a conceptual difference between objects that are meant to be an aversive, and have no other function (spurs primarily, but in ridden horse sport the use of the whip on the horse is always an aversive) and those that cause unintended pain/discomfort by chance, as it were. I used to do liberty and never needed a whip for it.
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?? If you have never used a whip, you may - mistakenly - believe its primary purpose is for ‘beating horses up’ (your earlier comment), and clearly for this purpose would be far easier to wield than a horse blanket.
But, and probably because you are personally unfamiliar with whips, you completely underestimate the purposes for which whips can be used by riders and equestrians generally, not just ‘para’ competition, either.
It is offensive to infer that horse riders who carry whips (possibly the majority of contributors to this forum?), are intentionally, or even inadvertently, potential beaters up of their horses, even if that inference stems from ignorance, and even if that is the only purpose you would personally use a whip for.
 
Exasperated said:
?? If you have never used a whip, you may - mistakenly - believe its primary purpose is for ‘beating horses up’ (your earlier comment), and clearly for this purpose would be far easier to wield than a horse blanket.
But, and probably because you are personally unfamiliar with whips, you completely underestimate the purposes for which whips can be used by riders and equestrians generally, not just ‘para’ competition, either.
It is offensive to infer that horse riders who carry whips (possibly the majority of contributors to this forum?), are intentionally, or even inadvertently, potential beaters up of their horses, even if that inference stems from ignorance, and even if that is the only purpose you would personally use a whip for.
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Where did I say I've never used a whip? I've been involved with horses as amateur and professional for 40 years and for years I carried a whip when I rode and lunged, and sometimes on the ground if I felt my safety was at issue. My point is simply that they are an aversive - they are there to apply pressure (which may or may not hurt, and need not actually mean touching at all). And yes, they can be used to beat a horse bloody in a way that a rug cannot, because of their purpose and design. That is their *primary* purpose, although they may also be useful for holding a gate open or flicking a fly off, depending on the whip. And certainly I never felt I required one when working with horses I knew well on the ground. I suppose I should ask you if you know what constitutes an aversive as far as the horse is concerned? I would also welcome knowing where I 'inferred' (I think you mean 'implied', unless you are making an assumption about what I think that I haven't actually written here) what you suggest in your last para.
 
Burnttoast said:
Where did I say I've never used a whip? I've been involved with horses as amateur and professional for 40 years and for years I carried a whip when I rode and lunged, and sometimes on the ground if I felt my safety was at issue. My point is simply that they are an aversive - they are there to apply pressure (which may or may not hurt, and need not actually mean touching at all). And yes, they can be used to beat a horse bloody in a way that a rug cannot, because of their purpose and design. That is their *primary* purpose, although they may also be useful for holding a gate open or flicking a fly off, depending on the whip. And certainly I never felt I required one when working with horses I knew well on the ground. I suppose I should ask you if you know what constitutes an aversive as far as the horse is concerned? I would also welcome knowing where I 'inferred' (I think you mean 'implied', unless you are making an assumption about what I think that I haven't actually written here) what you suggest in your last para.
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You are incorrect: running a whip down and across a horse is also used to soothe and reassure, as evident from a carriage, for a liberty horse to follow, etc, etc.
There is also an assumption here that aversive is necessarily problematic, whereas aversive direction may keep that horse, or its handler, from physical danger.
True, some individuals might ‘beat a horse bloody’ with their whip, or with their dog chain, or lead rope, or electric fence stake - humans are so imaginative - and by the same ‘imaginative’ token are quite capable of carrying and using whips in entirely humanitarian, non-aversive ways.
Meanwhile, I have an aversion to continuing this.
 
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