"Shoulder-in is the 'medicine pill' of schooling" - Discuss

[wkiwi]

OK, just to be controversial then....

No, I don't think it is the pill for everything. Yes it's a very useful exercise but only when it fits into the bigger scheme of improving the way of going. If you're trotting round the school or in circles then to get a developing horse straight and forward and connected then you must be using sideways and bending aids anyway. If the are not manoeuvrable and straight enough then you can then use an appropriate lateral exercise to improve that, but you should know why you're doing it. Particularly in trot, a horse can shuffle along in all sorts of bendy positions, but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily having any appreciable benefit.

But yes, shoulder in done well is a very useful exercise. And I generally teach shoulder in and leg yield before canter.

Good, was hoping someone would be controversial too. I was always taught that to help get a horse straight it would probably need more shoulder-in on one rein and more travers on the opposite rein (if that makes sense) because they are always one-sided.
Particularly important that people know why they are doing it (as you say) and also what they are trying to achieve for the stage of the horses training.

 

[milliepops]

On the topic did anyone hear pammy's description regarding angle on the centre line on badminton radio? It involved something like pointing the inside leg towards A and left be generally baffled!

rider's leg or horse's?! Missed that!

Would guess at horse's which would keep the hind legs on the centre line and ensure you moved the shoulders, as mentioned above?

 

[ester]

Ah yes I remember knee caps, I just couldn't fathom what direction she was trying to get me to point them in (I heard the second time she tried to describe it as she said she was giving it another go. But I still can't work out how my inside knee cap would end up between the hind legs which means I must be thinking about it all wrong!

 

[ihatework]

Ah yes I remember knee caps, I just couldn't fathom what direction she was trying to get me to point them in (I heard the second time she tried to describe it as she said she was giving it another go. But I still can't work out how my inside knee cap would end up between the hind legs which means I must be thinking about it all wrong!

I didn’t hear the commentary but are you sure it wasn’t outside kneecap?
So if in right SI, your right hind would be on the CL, shoulders to the right, which would have your left knee close to the CL and somewhere between the hind legs. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick having not heard the original comment!

 

[ester]

Well that would make more sense, I bet that was it

While listening I wanted to say no, hang on a minute go back this sounds important and let me draw a picture

There was some comment about using knees so that you didn't twist your body too I think

 

[Mule]

Lots of great comments from everyone, but i found this particularly interesting. In the 'old days' (and I'm talking LAST CENTURY here and have the grey hairs to prove it), we were told that if your horse could do movements to an equivalent of a 6 then it was ok to move on to the next stage. Now it seems that people are expected to get 8's before they move on. Perhaps your instructor is stuck in this rut?

Dressage used to be on a points system so you couldn't stay in prelim or novice once your horse had been placed a certain amount of time, and we couldn't wait to get out of prelim and start doing something more interesting. As someone else has put, its boring for horse and rider to just go round in circles and straight lines.
Mind you, last century we didn't have any arenas and did schooling out on hacks. If you have a horse that doesn't like waves then take it to the beach and you will get the most fantastic lateral work. And keeping your horse at trot while someone else canters will give you extended trot in no time. Flying changes for every change of direction on a twisting track through the sand dunes. Horses soon learnt to associate the aids with the action, and after all a foal can do perfect changes so it is only us that mess them up.

Hmm, I like some of the tips here, especially for the extended trot. I'm a perfectionist myself so I think that's part of it too. I think the points idea sounds good though. A lot of people don't ever seem to move past prelim for whatever reason (each to their own). Now if my horse would only get better we could crack on with it:rolleyes3:

 

[McFluff]

As a dressage newbie (who has a good trainer) this is a really interesting thread. We’ve taught my mare lots of lateral work as it has really helped her to improve her balance strength and suppleness. We had a good leg yield and shoulder in before we could reliably canter a circle. I’m currently at prelim, and really wish that there was lateral at novice rather than extended strides. It will take us more time to be able to show extension so I think I’ll have to write off those movements for a while if I move up soon. Yet she is now established at shoulder in, leg yield, rein back, walk pirouette and learning half pass. We both enjoy this work and it definitely helps the basic paces and carriage.

 

[greybadger_19]

As a dressage newbie (who has a good trainer) this is a really interesting thread. We’ve taught my mare lots of lateral work as it has really helped her to improve her balance strength and suppleness. We had a good leg yield and shoulder in before we could reliably canter a circle. I’m currently at prelim, and really wish that there was lateral at novice rather than extended strides. It will take us more time to be able to show extension so I think I’ll have to write off those movements for a while if I move up soon. Yet she is now established at shoulder in, leg yield, rein back, walk pirouette and learning half pass. We both enjoy this work and it definitely helps the basic paces and carriage.

It doesn’t matter what is in the test - in my view, the competition side is by the by. Note what Dressage means in a literal translation: ‘Training’. Are you training your horse? Sounds like you are so please take stock...

I deliberately made the point earlier that the exercises / movements are there for a reason - for gymnastic development and to correct issues - and not a means to an end. If you train a horse to make it better, the competition comes for free. Who cares that there isn’t lateral work at Novice? The question should be - does your horse go well, is it supple, is it progressing, is it light and collected for the level it can work at?

Good lateral work in walk and trot will come before a decent canter - these things are symbiotic and develop together over years. I hope your continue to enjoy the journey!

 

[Goldenstar]

I armed myself with a pony that didn't hold having a play and trying stuff out against me. I did discover, when he was about 21 that our version of a shoulder in wasn't actually quite right (having been to ride a few schoolmasters) and affecting the change did baffle him for a bit but we sorted it

On the topic did anyone hear pammy's description regarding angle on the centre line on badminton radio? It involved something like pointing the inside leg towards A and left be generally baffled!

I did not hear but I have had training from Pammy so I suspect she was saying to keep the angle as you want it you watch where your outside knee is heading so you can maintain a consistent angle .

 

[BethanT]

Lateral work is so important to help them build strength and to help teach to carry themselves properly. I don't class leg yield as lateral work and I don't personally use it in training whereas SI and travers / half pass are actually useful training exercises.

Riders enjoy lateral work and so do horses IME and it improves the way of going so why not use it.

My 5yr old did his first few trot half pass steps the other day even though we are only competing prelim. Shoulder in, travers and renvers I use straight and on circles on a regular basis

Agree, I train with a Classical Dressage instructor, and we do a lot of SI/Travers to get my horse to really unlock and engage himself. It highlights any straightness issues, or resistance to my leg. We hardly ever do leg yield, but the travers/counter should in up into canter is a really good exercise is working wonders for my boy who was very heavy in my hand and rides beautifully up hill.

And we are only competing Prelim at the moment! Aim is to get up to Elem, as I am doubtful he will get much higher, but he will also event, so gets trickier to juggle the two.

We have also barely touched on extensions, but have started with turn on the forehand and walk pirris. I love it, it's great fun. But I also love the fact that no one else on my yard can do it all despite competing up to Novice BE!