Silly question I'm sure ! Old hounds?

[GirlFriday]

What I would suggest is that you seek first hand experience - find your nearest local hunt. Get involved - gain experience and most importantly meet people who look after hounds and those who volunteer as puppy walkers. See how hounds are exercised and work together as a pack. See how the live and interact together. This more than anything will provide answers to your queries.

For a minute there I thought you were going to suggest the OP get first hand expereince of shooting the hounds...

Serious question: do you think that, eventually, there will be HH (hunting dog to home dog) type classes like there are ROR classes? Or perhaps hunt dog agility? We are beginning, as a nation, to have more qualms about what happens to working animals (eg greyhounds) at the end of their first careers...

Less serious question: are there now packs that shoot more hounds than foxes each year? Was always surprised at how fox-focussed the debates seemed to be when they were only harmed on occasion rather than routinely...

 

[Fiagai]

For a minute there I thought you were going to suggest the OP get first hand expereince of shooting the hounds...

Serious question: do you think that, eventually, there will be HH (hunting dog to home dog) type classes like there are ROR classes? Or perhaps hunt dog agility? We are beginning, as a nation, to have more qualms about what happens to working animals (eg greyhounds) at the end of their first careers...

Less serious question: are there now packs that shoot more hounds than foxes each year? Was always surprised at how fox-focussed the debates seemed to be when they were only harmed on occasion rather than routinely...

Unlikely that anyone would suggest an untrained person to shoot an animal domestic or otherwise...

Really not sure what shooting foxes has go to do with this post however for what it's worth my opinion on the matter is that:

Hounds are as already stated are a pack animal - they live as a group much in the way dogs in the wild do. Take a hound away from this environment as an older animal and the majority would simply be miserable in my experience.

Hunting was / is not always about the kill / shooting foxes. Many hounds are used in trail hunting where there are no 'shot foxes".
Shooting of foxes outside 'fox hunting' remains the single biggest method of fox control in the UK and in that instance has nothing whstsover to do with mounted hunts. The hunting "ban" has in fact really no impact on this type of hunting. Shooting as a method of dispatch remains at best controversial.

Dispersal, removal of old and sick foxes and the making of foxes both human and habitation shy played a large part in preventing reaccuring predation and helped population management. Take that away and you are left with the mess exemplified by urban fox populations today.

 

[GirlFriday]

It was just that OP was asking abt hounds being despatched, not puppy walked so I didn't see what difference seeing them trained/working would really make when (s)he was asking about the other end of their lives - not serious suggestion!

Entirely understand that there are packs where the only casualties are hounds (and occasionally really sadly horses and riders). Was just wondering if anyone had the stats on how many hounds/foxes were killed through hunting each year. I find the debate is, in general, a bit funny because
1) antis might be able to convince more people if they had made more of the dog welfare issues
2) hunts do a really hypocritical line in saying if they were restricted hounds would have to be shot... when they are anyway.

I rather think that the urban foxes in our large cities are long beyond any hereditary fear of hunts and would have been without a ban too. They still fear my little cur though!

I've heard the arguments about retraining hounds - similar could equally apply to race horses & grey hounds, staffies used as weapons etc really. None are bred as cuddly pets - but some are now retrained as such.

Why is it more controversial to shoot foxes than hounds? Due to difficulty in getting a clean kill?

I thought the biggest means of fox control was actually road building - more certainly killed on roads than ever in hunting but I think more than other human-instigated ways too.

Edited to add: I'll probably never hunt myself but have plenty of friends who do (pre/post/in Ireland/...) and am slightly open minded on the topic. I suspect the average man in the street does far more of detriment to animal welfare via unseen factory farming than anyone did by by more visible hunting.

 

[Fiagai]

It was just that OP was asking abt hounds being despatched, not puppy walked so I didn't see what difference seeing them trained/working would really make when (s)he was asking about the other end of their lives - not serious suggestion!

Exacctly because hounds generally live very different lives to dogs. Understanding this and the importance of the pack to their wellbeing is essential in order to understand the choices taken in ensure quality of life for these animals. Seeing how hounds live and interact with people and most importantly their own kind and their end of lives is essential to explaining this issue.
Looking at only one part of an issue is nearly always pointless.

Entirely understand that there are packs where the only casualties are hounds (and occasionally really sadly horses and riders). Was just wondering if anyone had the stats on how many hounds/foxes were killed through hunting each year.

Again I don't know how foxs being shot is relevant to this thread - however it remains that the point was that thousands of foxes die each year. They are shot by shooters that have nothing to do with mounted hunts. They are killed on roads and eradicated by pest control companies.

Hounds like companion dogs were bred for human use . Foxes were hunted as a way of managing predation. It's a comparative ratio that really makes no sense. Antis frequently used similar botched and misquoted information to keep up what is in all respects a socio-political attack against mounted hunts. And even despite the hunt ban they maintain this perogitive on the off chance that a hound just <may> meet a fox whilst legally on trail!

I find the debate is, in general, a bit funny because
1) antis might be able to convince more people if they had made more of the dog welfare issues
2) hunts do a really hypocritical line in saying if they were restricted hounds would have to be shot... when they are anyway.

See the first point ref. hounds and how they live regarding 'dog welfare issues". Hounds are incredibly well cared for. Even domestic dogs are frequently put down to ensure quality of life. The reality of hound management is no much different with the provisions that they are not 'dogs' in the sense of someone's couch companion.

The point regarding hounds being shot related to hounds being pts of where hunts are forced to close.

Antis don't need a rationale for what they do - there actions defy all logic and common sense.

I rather think that the urban foxes in our large cities are long beyond any hereditary fear of hunts and would have been without a ban too. They still fear my little cur though!

And that is the point and part of the problem. Lack of human and habitation shyness has lead to increasing problems both in cities and increasingly rural areas.

I've heard the arguments about retraining hounds - similar could equally apply to race horses & grey hounds, staffies used as weapons etc really. None are bred as cuddly pets - but some are now retrained as such.

It remains hounds live and breath as a pack animal. That is the main concern.

Why is it more controversial to shoot foxes than hounds? Due to difficulty in getting a clean kill?

One is a predator that unfortunatly has become a farthing wood / Disney cartoon character. A hound is a working animal whose owners have responsibility for welfare and end of life issues.

I thought the biggest means of fox control was actually road building - more certainly killed on roads than ever in hunting but I think more than other human-instigated ways too.Edited to add: I'll probably never hunt myself but have plenty of friends who do (pre/post/in Ireland/...) and am slightly open minded on the topic. I suspect the average man in the street does far more of detriment to animal welfare via unseen factory farming than anyone did by by more visible hunting.

 

[Fellewell]

Thousands of years ago canines joined forces with early man. These early canines helped man to hunt and retrieve prey. It could be argued that without this early partnership, civilisation would not have happened. Without canines to guard stock and help man hunt they would not have been able to make settlements.
And still today canines want to work with man. Sadly, few get the opportunity to do so but hounds are still living the dream. Especially when compared with their pet cousins who due to inappropriate housing, exercise,feed and criminally poor breeding achieve little more than to keep small animal vets in Ferraris.

Why is it controversial to shoot a fox? Because an injured animal could wander for days. No self-respecting MFH would leave a wounded animal. They need to be found and the best way to track anything, since time immemorial, is with hounds. But you need more than two.

 

[Smellycob]

Smelly cob- excuse my random editing of your last post as some of JM's posts appeared to have been truncated therin.

My first response to your initial enquiry would be welcome and that it is always good to ask questions.

However considering many posters experience of antis using questions to render division and argument on this forum in the past, it is perhaps not surprising that some may be be a tad reluctant to answer at all.

I would add that to find the answers to your enquiry - don't use Facebook / youtube or similar in a fact finding mission. In my experience 'facts' derived from Facebook and such ilk are perhaps best placed under the descriptions as fantasy and cracked.

What I would suggest is that you seek first hand experience - find your nearest local hunt. Get involved - gain experience and most importantly meet people who look after hounds and those who volunteer as puppy walkers. See how hounds are exercised and work together as a pack. See how the live and interact together. This more than anything will provide answers to your queries.

Best of luck.

Thanks very much. Yes, getting involved with hounds is something I can see myself doing, particularly as I have a sibling who is a fair weather rider but very much into anything with a wagging tail! Thought I could make it a bit of a family hobby : ) As for finding hunts I have contacted one of my local packs already. After deciding said smelly coblet would probably not be the best mount for a somewhat terrified newbie in the field, I have been informed by the Master about (very reasonably priced I must say) hirelings which I think will make for a more enjoyable and safer time all round. I think coblet will be for competition and shows and maybe small jumps days etc. when I am more experienced. Thank you for your suggestions x

 

[Smellycob]

Why is it controversial to shoot a fox? Because an injured animal could wander for days. No self-respecting MFH would leave a wounded animal. They need to be found and the best way to track anything, since time immemorial, is with hounds. But you need more than two.

What I say might upset people so be warned! Not shooting related but with regards to quick dispatch, albeit it might be a bit off topic. Me and my friend were driving along a country lane when she hit a fox - it was an accident, it ran out. It ran for a little bit then dropped and I could literally see it laying in the road lifting its head up and down. We couldn't stop owing to other cars, but I remember saying to her (sorry : ( for this ) could we not find somewhere to turn and (I'm really sorry) run the thing over again. Before anyone jumps on me for cruelty all I was thinking was the poor thing must have been in absolute agony and was still alive. I can tell you now there was no way that fox was getting up again. She looked at me absolutely horrified and drove off. That sight made me feel physically sick and I just hope that another driver squashed the poor thing and quickly : ( I hope I haven't upset anyone but that is my opinion xxx

 

[Alec Swan]

&#8230;&#8230;..

Serious question: do you think that, eventually, there will be HH (hunting dog to home dog) type classes like there are ROR classes? Or perhaps hunt dog agility? We are beginning, as a nation, to have more qualms about what happens to working animals (eg greyhounds) at the end of their first careers...

&#8230;&#8230;.. ...

The 'qualms' which you mention would have anyone who has the well being of hounds at heart, resisting any attempt at re-training. It works, only occasionally with TBs, providing that their new roll is closely linked to their previous, greyhounds almost always are condemned to lives of a sofa and a lead walk, and hounds? Just what secondary roll could they be happy in, do you suppose? Would you suggest that having been pack animals and having lived on kennel boards all their lives (as have generations before them), that they move in to a home and perhaps take up agility at the age or perhaps 7 or 8 years? Would that be humane to the animal concerned? Most who understand hounds would think it highly unlikely and to the point where there would be no point to the experiment.

Qualms, a good word. Releasing hounds in to secondary rolls should have anyone involved in the keeping of hounds recoiling from the idea.

Alec.

 

[GirlFriday]

I walk my similarly aged rehomed mutt (not exactly from a puppy farm but certainly from a place where he didn't get walked) with fox and basset hounds (not rehomed) living very urban and apparently happy lives. There are a few ex racing grey hounds (who seem *delighted* to do rather less exercise than one might imagine) around as pets too.

Now, I don't think there will likely ever be enough demand for /all/ hounds to be homed but the idea one can't teach an old dog new tricks and that death is preferable to sofas and walks is a bit closed minded. There are plenty of dogs who are used for fighting/caged breeding/racing that go on to lead very different lives later with varying degrees of support. And there are plenty of hounds, albeit, yes probably from different lines, living happily in family homes.

I've also seen huskies and malamutes rehomed from pet homes to working/live outdoor in pack type homes successfully.

If a breed is capable of something (and fox hounds seem to be) then there is no particular reason it can't learn later in life with sufficient support and patience.

In the same way that there are plenty of horses who may be 'wasted' under particular care/competition regimes who really don't give a stuff it is hard to see why a hound going to a home with other dogs/access to fields/patient owner couldn't be perfectly happy too... is there?

 

[GirlFriday]

PS to SmellyCob - I always make sure wild animals that need despatching are helped... not been a fox to date but various other mammals and birds... either with something to hand if I have ability/means or, in one instance, I actually took something blinded but not otherwise passing very quickly/static enough for me to deal with successfully to a vet for PTS. Not, to be fair, with the same degree of ceremony I would choose for a pet, but as quickly/painlessly/stress free as possible in whatever the circs are.

Was def *not* suggesting foxes deserve lingering deaths!

 

[Alec Swan]

&#8230;&#8230;..

If a breed is capable of something (and fox hounds seem to be) then there is no particular reason it can't learn later in life with sufficient support and patience.

&#8230;&#8230;.. ?

I'm surprised that you believe that you're right and that the vast majority of those who deal with hounds on a daily basis are wrong. Have you any experience, at all, of pack kept hounds? I suspect not because had you, you wouldn't make such silly statements. If re-homing to pet homes was a realistic option, do you not think that it would be taken up?

Alec.

 

[GirlFriday]

I'm surprised that you believe that you're right and that the vast majority of those who deal with hounds on a daily basis are wrong. Have you any experience, at all, of pack kept hounds? I suspect not because had you, you wouldn't make such silly statements. If re-homing to pet homes was a realistic option, do you not think that it would be taken up?

Alec.

Not a question of right/wrong, I already know I have different views on hound (dog) welfare than the average hunt follower (I choose not to participate in a sport which involves the slaughter of dogs). But that is personal choice rather than knowledge of what the heck you think happens to hounds that makes them unable to live in houses later.

I know those who have dogs from puppy farms do have some success in house training etc... what other issues are there that are unique to hounds?

 

[Maesfen]

I know those who have dogs from puppy farms do have some success in house training etc... what other issues are there that are unique to hounds?

It usually comes down to quality of life and their safety. If you can't guarantee that then it's a no brainer and no way would a hunt want their reputation called into question when the hound started wandering as it would undoubtedly do.

It would be totally unfair to ask a foxhound to remain on a lead the whole time which would be totally alien and restrictive to what it will have known in the pack. Few people have enough surrounding land (very well and highly fenced so no chance of escape) of their own to allow free access and few people would have the neighbours that would encourage a hound free roaming over their property while not knowing where it would end up possibly miles away or make its way back to kennels where it belonged in the first place.

Far better a safe end after a happy hunting life IMHO.

 

[hackneylass2]

' Bearing in mind many Countrymen and women went to fight a war in 1939, because they were angry that Hitler shot all the Hounds in Nazi Germany in 1936 and abolished hunting.'

Judgemental, you are clearly the latter part of your screen name.

 

[Dry Rot]

But if some believe the Nazis shot all the hounds, maybe they need to do some research on Hermann Wilhelm Göring!

There was a gundog kennel not far from my previous farm that allegedly had 750 dogs in the 1930s - 40s. At the outbreak of war, 450 dogs were shot on one day on the orders of the government "to conserve food supplies". I have no doubt at all that many packs of hounds, and pet dogs, got the same treatment. I got this by word of mouth from one of the former kennel boys, then in his 80s, about 40 years ago.

Back in the 1950's, when I worked with hounds, we had an old kennel huntsman who had been through the First World War. He told me that during the Depression, they'd had to save every penny to keep the packs going. Every dead beast that was brought in to feed the hounds was carefully skinned, the fat was skimmed off the boiler, the bones were collected and bagged -- all to be sold on to the Steptoes of the time. And, yes, culled hounds were also skinned and fed back to the pack. But that doesn't happen these days and farmers have to pay to get the hunt to take away fallen stock.

A man came up to me at a show and asked, "Would you eat horse meat?". I looked him straight in the eye, then said, "If I was hungry enough, I'd eat YOU!", and I meant it. None reading this now know what they would do if times were hard enough. Hopefully, they will never happen again, but it is a pretty forelorn hope.

Yes, old hounds are humanely destroyed. Due to becoming soft in my old age, I have let a couple of pet dogs linger on and die naturally. But I won't be doing that again because it is not usually a nice end and I don't think I did them any favours. Nor will I be subjecting them to a one way trip in the car and the stress of the unfamiliar vets' surgery. They'll be accompanying me for a rabbit hunt around the fields and end their time, as we used to do with the hounds, when they were excited by a scent and totally unaware of what was about to happen. I just wish I could rely on someone doing as much for me! Hey, wait a minute! I suspect there is already a long queue of volunteers!

 

[Clodagh]

We have had retired hounds here. The first was a harrier who hated pack life and had a sort of canine nervous breakdown in the kennels, we got her at a year old and she made a cracking pet, loved the sofa, easy to house train and a beautiful character. She had zero recall once her head went down and hunting was her raison d'etre, luckily we live on a farm and she could do that.
We then retired a brood bitch who I had formerly had here for whelping, she coped but lived out and got very territorial, she was alright with us but would go for my MIL so had to go.
We then retired an old dog hound who we had walked as a pup, he just would not eat, we tried feeding him flesh, we tried feeding him with the other dogs but he just pined and pined and had to go too.
So, on the hole I think it is a no, bar exceptions.

DR - good to see you back, I have been worried about you.

MF - just read your post too, our harrier did not go off our land (or rarely!) but when she ganged up with my lurcher they wandered far and wide and after they got a fallow buck at bay in the middle of next doors field they had to be seperated.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

DR - good to see you back, I have been worried about you.

…….. .

Agreed, and D_R's post raised a smile as I kicked over the dust of Memory Lane.

Alec.

As an edit; Of course there are the odd exceptions, but even when they go to those who are experienced with Hounds, the animal is rarely happy in it's new role. It's a shame because we might imagine that they have a great deal to offer.

 

[Fiagai]

Not a question of right/wrong, I already know I have different views on hound (dog) welfare than the average hunt follower (I choose not to participate in a sport which involves the slaughter of dogs). But that is personal choice rather than knowledge of what the heck you think happens to hounds that makes them unable to live in houses later.

I know those who have dogs from puppy farms do have some success in house training etc... what other issues are there that are unique to hounds?

It is interesting to note that you say you have 'different views' and chose not to participate in a sport which involves the 'slaughter' of dogs(?) rather than retiring them to 'living in houses' ...

I believe there have already been several posts in this thread detailing the major issues regarding quality of life for hounds reared as part of a pack and the use of euthanasia. As you appear to have ignored those posts you may be interested to learn that as a horse rider - you have chosen to participate in a sport that involves the apparent 'slaughter' (as you termed it) of horses. Is this selective bias on your part?

According to the World Horse Welfare group "research from Advancing Equine Scientific Excellence (AESE) showed that only 9 per cent of horses die of natural causes, which means in the other 91 per cent of cases the decision to euthanase will have to be made either electively or in an emergency.

The WHW go on to detail that ...

"In the case of any death, regardless of whether it is due to euthanasia or natural causes, there are matters that need to be considered and this is far easier to do in advance of any problem.

Considering your horse&#8217;s quality of life is imperative when thinking about euthanasia and whilst it is not an easy decision to make, the implications in delaying it can have a much greater impact on their welfare and on your peace of mind."

I would advise you to take a more indepth and complete investigation of this whole issue before dismissing the current practices of hound management in ensuring the quality of life for the horses companion - the hound.


See: http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Just-in-Case

 

[Alec Swan]

Fiagai, I suspect that the band of those who suggest theory, and who correct those who are in possession of that rare commodity, experience, is growing and pointing out that when the world says that you are wrong and that the world may well be right, seems to make not a jot of difference!

It's all to do with welfare and responsibility, a question which is rarely addressed or understood by the growing band.

Alec.

 

[Fiagai]

Fiagai, I suspect that the band of those who suggest theory, and who correct those who are in possession of that rare commodity, experience, is growing and pointing out that when the world says that you are wrong and that the world may well be right, seems to make not a jot of difference!

It's all to do with welfare and responsibility, a question which is rarely addressed or understood by the growing band.

Alec.

I can only agree on this point and we'll said. Where there is theory - it at least needs to be applied universally. As an old gentleman once used said to me - the problem with common sense is that it's really not common at all...

 

[GirlFriday]

Is this selective bias on your part?

Nope. The share horse I had that reached the end of working life was roughed off to live out in a herd, not slaughtered/euthanased humanely or otherwise simply becasue no longer working.

And to the poster above who mentioned the car ride to the vets - entirely agree that if whatever animal isn't a great traveller and needs to be PTS for health reasons I would (and have) paid for a vet to do home visits.

I don't have my own horse because I couldn't afford everything I'd wish to in terms of welfare for something on that scale. It means I miss out on some stuff. But it also means I'll never be in a position to have to decide to PTS on financial grounds.

(In case we get super-picky about being fluffy with all species, yes, I am... bought synthetic tack where relevant, don't consume/wear slaughter-related products myself etc... I'm pretty internally consistent. It doesn't mean I think everyone else should make the same choices though.)

It does seem a shame that more effort isn't/couldn't be made to make sure hounds leaving hunting can have another life though (vaguely imagining more training in a domestic setting after weaning and before they join the main pack but not sure how feasible that would be?). Sort of like those who ride bitless making sure a horse has been bitted so that if it has to be sold it has more options open later... Because I do think there is a moral (if not, in some lights practical) difference between PTS/slaughtering something that could live healthily for many more years and something that is in unavoidable physical suffering.

I guess the clue about recall of hounds is in the language though... it isn't that they are choosing to be near the hunt the hunt 'follow the hounds' which clearly isn't practical when you could end up trespassing as a private individual.

 

[Fiagai]

Nope. The share horse I had that reached the end of working life was roughed off to live out in a herd, not slaughtered/euthanased humanely or otherwise simply becasue no longer working.
...

My previous reply was based around the statement that you wouldn't participate in a sport that involved the 'slaughter' of dogs. Your personal views on rehoming are commendable however it remains that within the horse industry only 9 % of horses die naturally. The rest are euthanised or using your own terminology 'slaughted'. And yet despite this you have chosen to participate in the sport of horse riding. This I believe is selective bias.

It is important not to elevate our own emotions over welfare issues. Like horses there are real and valid reasons why horses and hounds are euthanised.

There was a recent H&H article on rehoming horses that you may have read. This is a short quote from the article

Rebecca Evans, re-homing manager at Horses4Homes, said if owners cannot justify the expense of looking after a horse that can no longer be ridden, the best option may be to put it down.

&#8220;Euthanasia of any animal is difficult, but owners must have the courage to put their much- loved, unrideable horses to sleep rather than run the risk of that horse being sent to an inappropriate home where its welfare needs may not be met,&#8221; she told H&H.

Ms Evans, who worked for The Horse Trust before setting up Horses4Homes last year, also warned owners not to offer companion horses for loan on social media sites, as she has had reports of horses being misrepresented.

&#8220;For horses that can be ridden there are new homes out there, but for those that are difficult to handle and can&#8217;t be ridden it&#8217;s practically impossible,&#8221; she added.

Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/homes-companion-horses-limited-453613#DOPVTpKPG5zdBCgI.9

This issue of rehoming horses in my opinion is comparable to that of other working animals including hounds in that responsibility, welfare and quality of life must ultimately dictate such decisions.

 

[Clodagh]

It does seem a shame that more effort isn't/couldn't be made to make sure hounds leaving hunting can have another life though (vaguely imagining more training in a domestic setting after weaning and before they join the main pack but not sure how feasible that would be?). Sort of like those who ride bitless making sure a horse has been bitted so that if it has to be sold it has more options open later... Because I do think there is a moral (if not, in some lights practical) difference between PTS/slaughtering something that could live healthily for many more years and something that is in unavoidable physical suffering.
al.

They do go out to domestic homes on weaning, and live there for as long as the 'walker' can cope. They are usually no trouble until they are 7 months old or so, until then they live as a normal dog. Ours did sleep out in kennels but in the day they just behaved like any large breed boisterous puppy. They do go out in pairs or more. Once the call of the wild kicks in they get set back to kennels to enter the pack.

 

[GirlFriday]

They do go out to domestic homes on weaning, and live there for as long as the 'walker' can cope. They are usually no trouble until they are 7 months old or so, until then they live as a normal dog. Ours did sleep out in kennels but in the day they just behaved like any large breed boisterous puppy. They do go out in pairs or more. Once the call of the wild kicks in they get set back to kennels to enter the pack.

I had understood they spent some time with walkers... Was speculating as to whether there was, in theory, scope to maintain that for long enough to instil repeatable habits post-retirement. But you found that at around 7months they were no longer trainable in the way another dog/even a hound bred for showing or similar would be?

 

[GirlFriday]

Your personal views on rehoming are commendable however it remains that within the horse industry only 9 % of horses die naturally. The rest are euthanised or using your own terminology 'slaughted'. And yet despite this you have chosen to participate in the sport of horse riding. This I believe is selective bias.

Well, I do *not* choose to participate in racing (including not betting on it) or much else horsey-wise where retirement isn't an option.

So, whilst it might be 91% overall what I personally fund is a very much lower percentage (probably a few from riding schools etc but currently 0% of regularly ridden horses). Whereas if I hunted it would be close to 100% of hounds.

I would actually rather see many, many fewer horses bred and kept (and enjoyed, yes, I'd be comfortable with them basically being for the wealthy because I don't think being human gives one a right to enjoy animals one can't afford to keep in all reasonably likely eventualities) and far fewer being PTS/slaughtered becasue they couldn't afford to be kept.

But also, that 91% of horses will include many that I'd choose to PTS myself becasue most animals very close to the end of their lives suffer a bit and it is preferable to prevent that. So, in theory, keeping a retired horse for 15 years and then ending its life becasue it was no longer enjoying it would be in your 91%. And I believe that ending a healthy hound's life at a much earlier stage in life is a fundamentally different moral choice to be making. And one I'd be funding if I hunted, in the same way that I'd be funding e.g. a lot of what happens to TBs if I gambled on racing and so forth.

 

[ester]

I'm not sure it is fair to deem the whole of horse riding one sport when the different factions and the life for the horses in each are so very different.

 

[Beausmate]

I'll freely admit that I know b***er all about hounds, but it appears to me that a hound is an amiable beast, with a deeply ingrained teamwork ethic and delusions of wolfiness. Trying to make a hound live without hunting, would be like trying to stop a collie rounding things up, or a Lab carrying stuff about. It's not going to happen without making the animal miserable.

There was an experiment (probably more than one) carried out involving raising wolves as domestic pets. It all went well, with the wolf cubs behaving pretty much like boisterous puppies until they reached about six months old, then they started to revert to type and were turned out to live like wolves should. Hounds strike me as being like this, the instinct to be hounds is so strong in almost all cases, that to take that away from them would be like clipping the wings of an eagle.

 

[smja]

...most animals very close to the end of their lives suffer a bit and it is preferable to prevent that. So, in theory, keeping a retired horse for 15 years and then ending its life becasue it was no longer enjoying it would be in your 91%. And I believe that ending a healthy hound's life at a much earlier stage in life is a fundamentally different moral choice to be making.

But this is the crux of the argument. The old hound away from the pack suffers more mentally than physically - and personally I would rather any animal I cared for, be they horse or dog, didn't linger on unhappily because they were healthy in body.

Every huntsman I've ever met has cared deeply for his hounds and knows them all as individuals. If they think a hound would do well in a pet home, then it would be given serious consideration. If a hound isn't suitable for rehoming, then humane PTS is the only responsible thing for them to do, and it wouldn't be a decision made lightly.

 

[Clodagh]

I'll freely admit that I know b***er all about hounds, but it appears to me that a hound is an amiable beast, with a deeply ingrained teamwork ethic and delusions of wolfiness. Trying to make a hound live without hunting, would be like trying to stop a collie rounding things up, or a Lab carrying stuff about. It's not going to happen without making the animal miserable.

That is brilliantly put, and somethnig that Alec Swan and I are constantly banging on about, you cannot breed something for generations to exhibit a particular type of behaviour, and then expect to alter it in a year or two. I remember when I got my lurcher (from the pound, dumped by coursers) weeping in frustration as I had never had such a pig headed, strong willed, untrainable dog. With hindsight she was doing exactly what it said on the tin.