Simon Cowell thinks hunting should stay banned!

[Herne]

So to clarify, the above:

It is entirely possible and reasonable to respect someone's reasons for not liking hunting and not wanting to take part.

It is entirely possible and reasonable to respect someone's views about the downsides and flaws of hunting - and even to agree with them.

And you are entirely justified in expecting people to treat those views with respect, even if they don't agree with them.

But it is not reasonable to demand that people who disagree with your *conclusions* in an argument should accept that your conclusion is "valid and justifiable", just because they accept that some of your evidence and/or your arguments are valid and justifiable.

There is a huuuuuge difference.

 

[SueEllen]

Well written, I'm with you on this.

 

[spacefaer]

Herne - couldn't agree more - you put into words what I was thinking (but WAY more articulately!!)

 

[dunthing]

After all this bickering, I'm not sure that Simon Cowell's comments are valid. He has chosen to abandon his own country and live in the USA. I don't give a damn for his opinion. Hunting was, is and always will be the finest way to control vermin. The next "hobby horse" will be that nobody can own a jack russell because it may just kill a rat, oh! and you can't keep cats because they catch birds and mice. Bloody nanny state!!

 

[maresnest]

QR The trouble with people like Simon Cowell is that they get in a position of power and think they can say what they like about anything, even when completely uniformed and out of touch with reality. Most of the anti hunting fraternity have no idea what the reality of killing foxes without the use of dogs is, and sadly as they are vermin, there will always have to be a way to control them. Perhaps some should attach a gintrap or snare to mr cowell and leave him to suffer for a few days or perhap he would prefer a slow bleeding gunshot would where an amateur marksman has winged him? Or a does of warfarin, that might take a day or two to kill him if he is careful about not banging his leg? Some people just have no idea. Does he not realise that the reason foxes are so successful as a species in this country is that hunting with dogs ensures the survival of the fittest.

 

[cptrayes]

"think they can say what they like about anything"

They don't "think" they can. They can.

If people want the ban repealed they need to find someone with an equally big mouth as Cowell's to speak in public in favour of hunting with hounds.

 

[Daisychain]

What i mean is wild foxes are caught and transported in a vehicle down to another hunt and used in another hunt.

And no i am not mistaken.....

It is these sort of going on's, i can't just ignore and think it doesn't happen. Its the blood thirsty lot im not keen on tbh. As i said, it really isnt that black and white to me. I am very aware of both sides.

 

[blackstar]

I am a moderate 'anti' who is interested and who has learned a lot from reading the different opinions on this part of the forum. I want to say that once again I am sad to see that the automatic assumption of so many is that anyone who comes out against hunting is an ill informed townie. I think this attitude is the singular thing which is most likely to get backs up. It does your cause no favours.

ETS - This was QR and not a direct reply to Combat Claire

 

[Daisychain]

Don't catch foxes anymore....

Hmmmm you really are deluded lol! :grin:

 

[cptrayes]

"Especially when we then read statements like: <<we should [not] get our fun by causing fear and pain to another creature>>. "

I have been puzzling all day over why this statement upset the poster who quoted it and I have finally worked it out. I wrote "we" and I meant "we - people who hunt to have fun". The reader read it as "we - all people who hunt" and assumed that I was having a pop at people hunting "wanting to have fun by causing fear and pain to another creature".

Apologies if what I wrote was so badly worded as to be easily misunderstood.

To clarify. I am not saying that anyone hunts for the fun of causing fear and pain to another creature. I am saying that I hunt for the fun of riding across country on my horse and that I cannot justify to myself that it needs another animal to experience fear and pain for me to get that fun.

Countrygirl45 we have no hunting with hounds around here and I live in the middle of hill farming country which is almost exclusively sheep. Foxes here are shot and no-one complains about the number of lambs surviving the foxes, just surviving the weather. While the ban exists, surely you are having foxes shot, not losing valuable lambs just because fox can't be hunted with hounds?

As a not-for-me sceptic, not an out and out anti, I think the campaign to overturn the ban needs to understand that the argument that fox numbers can't be kept down without hunting with hounds does not stand up with the general public and badly damages your overall message that you believe it to be the most humane way to do it.

 

[dorani]

I'm glad to see that this topic has stirred up some thought!Many years ago I worked for a MFH caring for his horses and I have owned my own horses for nearly 40 years so... despite the ever ready attitude of claiming anyone who is anti hunting is ill informed, which is what the pro's consistantly claim,... I DO know what I am talking about. I am well aware that foxes were transported to other hunts on a regular basis. I cannot understand how people are able to convince them selves that running our only indiginous dog until exhustion before it is torn apart is anyway humane. A valid point too is that foxes are not the "danger" and taker of livestock claimed. It is up to the owner in this day and age with electric fences to protect it. No , the real danger for the hunting/shooting clan is that the fox may take game birds!! Heaven forbid!! Foxes could have been wiped out centuries ago if it wasn't so enjoyable to race around the countryside chasing them! they are just another "game " creature.
, used for "fun".
Have you noticed how if a fox gets in amongst a flock of hens everyone says "He killed them all, just for fun, he only needed one to eat,he is a mad killer!" Yet.... if you put a Jack Russell in with 100 rats and it kills them all....it is praised...what a wonderful dog...killed all those rats!
No , I think there is a little something missing inside the heads of anyone who wants to cause mental and physical torture to ANY animal. Its no better than organised dog fighting,bear baiting etc etc.

 

[spotty_pony]

Well if he was really bothered about 'what the public want' he would see thay 59% of the public say keep hunting...

 

[dorani]

Another very sneaky move by the hunting fraternity is to involve farmers to swell their numbers by forming the Countryside Alliance. How naive was that!!!!

 

[cptrayes]

For heaven's sake, do you want to turn the world against you?!?!?!

If a horse is killed eventing or hunting it is an unwelcome and unplanned and rare accident which happens to a horse which is thoroughly enjoying itself at the time.

That does not compare one bit with deliberately setting out to chase an animal for as many miles as it takes to catch it or send it to ground, and then kill it.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

For heaven's sake, do you want to turn the world against you?!?!?!

If a horse is killed eventing or hunting it is an unwelcome and unplanned and rare accident which happens to a horse which is thoroughly enjoying itself at the time.

That does not compare one bit with deliberately setting out to chase an animal for as many miles as it takes to catch it or send it to ground, and then kill it.

why target hunting? Surely shooting causes just as much if not more suffering to foxes.

A rifle bullet actually does tear a fox apart.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

Foxes could have been wiped out centuries ago if it wasn't so enjoyable to race around the countryside chasing them! they are just another "game " creature.
, used for "fun".

Interesting point. Could there be an advantage to a species if it is seen as a quarry rather than just a pest?

There didn't used to be hardly any hares round us but our local beagle pack has imported thousands from up country over the years.

Stag hunting is another good example. Those pesky hunters actually take steps to maintain a healthy herd for their sport.

 

[cptrayes]

to me there is NO difference , as you say the horse might well have enjoyed its self but its dead giving YOU pleasure and it wouldnt have died if YOU hadn't ridden it would it ?

How do you know the fox isnt enjoying himself ?

Oh please, spare us! The difference is that very few horses die eventing or hunting and no one wants it to happen. And to answer your question, yes, it might well have died of colic, broken leg, etc etc etc if I hadn't been riding it. The difference is in the intention. You intend to get enjoyment from an activity where you intend to kill foxes. If my horse dies hunting with me, it will be a pure accident, with no intention on anyone's part that it should happen.

Do you REALLY think you are doing your cause ANY favours with this kind of argument?

 

[SueEllen]

Has no one herd the term "Cute as a Fox" they arent stupid animals nore are they sweetnes and light, they have been around for generations and will be for many more. It's natural selection, the weak the sick and the not so smart will be caught which is as nature intended. Fair enough its not wild packs of dogs/wolves hunting them but 14 couple of Hounds but its not far from the original is it.

(ok so for the UK I'm talking pre ban)

Also if Hunting is so cruel to the poor little foxes then what about the cute little mice that we poison the rats we set traps for the spiders that we splatter the flies that we swat........ and what about fising shooting etc surley thats cruel as well..............infact how dare we kill any animal ever or how dare we allow one animal to kill another ever.

OK I will shut up now.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

to me there is NO difference , as you say the horse might well have enjoyed its self but its dead giving YOU pleasure and it wouldnt have died if YOU hadn't ridden it would it ?

How do you know the fox isnt enjoying himself ?

Oh please, spare us! The difference is that very few horses die eventing or hunting and no one wants it to happen. And yes, it might well have died of colic, broken leg, etc etc etc if I hadn't been riding it.

Do you REALLy think you are doing your cause ANY favours with this kind of argument?

Actually to a certain extent it is a fair point. We assume that running away from something we perceive to be out to kill us is a horrendous experience and it would be for us but of course animals do this all the time. Walk into wood and any deer in it will 'think' you are a predator and flee. That doesn't mean they are suffering.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that a fox enjoys the whole process of hunting , that would be absurd but I doubt the any suffering starts quite where a lot of people think it does.

Another factor which I used to think was a stupid argument but actually dopes make a lot of sense is that by the time a fox is caught it is pumped up with adrenaline which considerably reduces its pain.

Wound a fox with a shot gun and I reckon it suffers considerably more because there is no adrenaline. Unless it is killed with a second shot (or a dog) it will also suffer far longer than a fox caught by hounds.

The real question is do foxes need to be killed at all? and if so what is the best method in the circumstances. The answer to the second question very much depends on likely wounding rates and also the objectives. These are the issues that any welfare/ conservation based law would address.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

Fair enough its not wild packs of dogs/wolfs hunting them but 14 couple of Hounds but its not far from the original is it.

Good point. Apex predators such as wolves and Lynx have a key role in an ecosystem and have been shown to keep fox numbers in balance in Sweden.

 

[SueEllen]

"Apex preditors" thats the word

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

another thing I really don't get is why antis are so obsessed with Hunting with dogs. Even as far as the fox population is concerned it is a very minor factor in terms of fox welfare and when you look at wildlife in general there are far bigger issues both in terms of welfare and conservation.

Why not look at land management in general? Massive areas of Britain are managed for country sports. Why not work with land managers to improve outcomes rather than antagonising them?

There's much that is good but also factors that could be improved to the benefit of wildlife.

It's just ridiculous to take the overly moralistic black and white us and them position of people like LACS where any concession to 'the enemy' is seen as a defeat.

 

[cptrayes]

Can we clarify something about shooting foxes? I have been doing some research (I've never bothered before because I really didn't care whether other people hunted or not, but some of the posting on this forum has piqued my curiosity.) I just found on supportfoxhunting.co.uk website the following statement:

"The inquiry also found that shotgun use in the day & snaring - the main alternatives to hunting - are worse for animal welfare."

I take that to mean that lamping, shooting at night, has been found to be at least as good for animal welfare as hunting with hounds. Is this a correct interpretation?

Can someone also give me the reference for researching the statement that 59% of people support hunting with hounds, because I can't find it on google anywhere. All I can find is an LACS poll which found 59% of Conservative voters supported the ban. I'd really like to read the other side.

Thanks.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

The burns enquiry found that in SOME circumstances using dogs is preferable to guns. It specifically mentioned welsh foot packs I believe.

Since then the middle ways group commissioned research was published in Animal Welfare Journal. This is peer reviewed which means it's methods have been found to be valid by the scientific community.

This found far higher wounding rates under some shooting regimes than previously thought.

wounding is a massive issue in terms of animal wel;fare. Wounded animals that are not quickly found and killed suffer horrible and drawn out deaths and also spread disease.

An interesting conclusion of the study is that wounding to killed ratio does not vary very much from unskilled to skilled shooters. Skilled shooters merely hit more.

Ie if you are going to be shot at then hope its by a bad shot which is kind of obvious when you think about it.

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

59% figure was those who opposed any ban + those who wanted hunting to continue under license

 

[cptrayes]

Thankyou. Do you know who did the survey and when it was?

I can answer your question

"another thing I really don't get is why antis are so obsessed with Hunting with dogs. Even as far as the fox population is concerned it is a very minor factor in terms of fox welfare and when you look at wildlife in general there are far bigger issues both in terms of welfare and conservation."

but PLEASE don't shoot the messenger!! I am not an "anti" I am just a "not-for-me".

The reason antis are so obsessed is because of the enjoyment that hunting gives people. It's not a welfare issue at all for most of them, it's that they can't bear thinking of people having fun which needs an animal to go through being chased and killed to provide it.

The fact that drag hunting looks so much the same convinces them that there is no reason for a fox to be involved at all. From that, they draw the conclusion that people who choose to hunt fox on horseback instead of drag hunting must actually enjoy the fox being killed.

It's an understandable conclusion to have come to and one that is very hard for the CA to overcome.

Something else that should be worrying the CA is the 10% increase in people hunting since the ban. They use this repeatedly as evidence that the ban should be repealed. Most non-hunting people will look at the fact that those people started AFTER the ban was in place, and draw the entirely opposite conclusion as to repealing it.

I really feel for you guys, totally sincerely. You are absolutely passionate about your sport and a politically motivated and badly drawn law has deprived you of it. But the fact that the dire predictions of the CA pre-ban (hounds put down, farriers out of business, livery stables bankrupt) have not happened, but instead 10% more people hunt, is going to give you a dreadfully uphill battle in getting something removed which has been in place for several years with no obvious consequences.


ps I have really enjoyed this discussion with the reasonable people. When my hunter has hardened off his splint and is fit to ride again, I'll miss spending so much time here!

 

[NoToHareCoursing]

I agree with Mr Cowell. We British led the way in banning the slave trade and in banning slavery in the Empire, we led the way in banning bear baiting and cock fighting, and we led the way in banning hunting and hare coursing. We must continue to make progress and not let our civilisation take a backward step. For those who agree with me regarding hare coursing in particular, go to -

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoToHareCoursing/

 

[NoToHareCoursing]

"It's natural selection"

It's not natural, SueEllen: it's unnatural. Nature is very cruel without man's help. But man needn't make natural cruelty more so for his own amusement. Go drag hunting and give 'the kill' a miss!

 

[HeWasGeeBee]

"It's natural selection"

It's not natural, SueEllen: it's unnatural. Nature is very cruel without man's help. But man needn't make natural cruelty more so for his own amusement. Go drag hunting and give 'the kill' a miss!

I think what she means is that it most closely mimics the natural effect of predation by animals like wolves.

Yes nature is cruel but actually predation in some ways relieves suffering. these things just aren't black and white.

BTW personally I do give the kill a miss. Unfortunately my non lethal means are illegal unless I do kill the animal which is most unfortunate as I am sure you would agree.

 

[winterhorses2]

sorry but you will find that mr hitler in germany was the first to ban fox hunting my friend not the british so look through your history a bit better before making comment 's my friend...
oh and look where that got him and his policies!!!!!

oh and as for your cheshire drag hunt have a chat with your huntsman and ask him why he hunts 3/4 day;s a week as whip to most of the foxhunts up that way and ask why he does it ...
and then maybe you will understand the whole situation...

rant over..