So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

hnmisty said:
It's great that you have that job security and a supportive OH.

What if you didn't though? What if you were single? Or of you and your partner both lost you jobs and you were at risk of losing your home? What if you had kids to feed and couldn't afford the old knackered horse and food on the table at the same time?

A few years ago it was touch and go whether my dad would lose his job. If he had, we'd have lost our house and everything. I would have searched heaven and hell for a way to keep Misty. And if o hadn't found an answer, I would have PTS. Thankfully the worst didn't happen and we kept her until she got colic. I'd always said the day she had to go through an operation would be the day i said goodbye, and so it was.
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I don't have kids and that's a factor in my having 2 horses. When I first got horses I did split up with my then partner and to house myself, keep the dogs and horses was a struggle.

Don't get my wrong if they were in pain or had no quality of life I would pts. Luckily OH and I have the same job, both secure and over time in abundance so tbh it's not something I gladly have to think about. But if it came to it, like you I would do anything in power to keep them.
 
Kallibear said:
That is because DEFRA are currently a waste of space when it comes to horses, not because they can't actually have the wormers etc. Coes/sheep/pigs are all regularly wormed, vaccinated and given pain killers. It could be sorted.
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Ok I didn't realise that I'm not very clued up with DEFRA reqs and other animals in the food chain just new some reason bute and wormers couldn't enter the food chain
 
We should be eating them...... whoever said that is quite right.

Not worming???? mmmm well we wormed a batch of fattening cattle not long ago (Ivomec based wormer) and OH just checked the withdrawal period last week...... how long do you think it is? Bearing in mind that horses are wormed with the same drug. And most drugs used do have a withdrawal period.....but just not for horses. I wonder why? could it be to do with the spondulies to be made out of keeping them trudgeing along, so to speak!!?

Oh and why is it so very expensive to worm a horse compared to a cow??
 
kalliebear (sorry on phone so cant quote) no, as soon as i heard from the vets i decided he would never be sold, even now he is coming right, i may part loan him but never will he be completely parted from me as i know that he could end up in the wrong hands. i love him too much to do that to him. he has psd and navicular and he isnt an easy ride and is very cheeky, he has a great personality however, he would turn nasty in the wrong hands.
 
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LaMooch said:
Ok I didn't realise that I'm not very clued up with DEFRA reqs and other animals in the food chain just new some reason bute and wormers couldn't enter the food chain
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It's not just DEFRA but they don't help.
As spook said, most of the cattle and sheep drugs are exactly the same as horse drugs (but 10x more expensive! ) but they've not had the withdrawn periods researched in horses. And therefore because the withdrawl isn't known, the answer is always 'never'.

Is wormer withdrawal not something like 14days?


It's noticeable that many replies have shifted back to the 'To PTS or not to PTS' argument, rather than viable alternatives if the owner feels PTS is not an option.
 
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Kadastorm said:
kalliebear (sorry on phone so cant quote) no, as soon as i heard from the vets i decided he would never be sold, even now he is coming right, i may part loan him but never will he be completely parted from me as i know that he could end up in the wrong hands. i love him too much to do that to him. he had psd and navicular and he isnt an easy ride and is very cheeky, he has a great personality however, he would turn nasty in the wrong hands.
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At least you'd never have passed his issues on to someone else. But what would you have done if you couldn't have kept him? (Say for financial issues)
 
i have struggled as i lost my job and was out of work for a couple of months. my student loan and the support of my parents meant he never lost out and now i have a job i dont have to worry atm. however, if i really couldnt afford to keep him i do have a friend who has a field with retired horses to turn out on. if that fell through then i would PTS, but this would be the absolute last resort.
 
Kallibear said:
It's not just DEFRA but they don't help.
As spook said, most of the cattle and sheep drugs are exactly the same as horse drugs (but 10x more expensive! ) but they've not had the withdrawn periods researched in horses. And therefore because the withdrawl isn't known, the answer is always 'never'.

Is wormer withdrawal not something like 14days?


It's noticeable that many replies have shifted back to the 'To PTS or not to PTS' argument, rather than viable alternatives if the owner feels PTS is not an option.
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Like anything horsey its expensive and I suppose withdrawal never been researched as horses have never been thought of as part the human food chain
 
I have to say it has never actually occurred to me in all the years that I have owned horses, including when I was a student with little income and searching for my first job, that I would not retire a horse that I owned.

Since I know plenty of other people who think and do exactly the same, I can only assume that some people for whom this is an alien or just exceptionally difficult concept must all be hard bitten professional dealers.

Surely this is something you think about when you buy a horse in the first place?

And don't most cats, dogs, rabbits, hamsters and other pets have no use either? Other than in their company?
 
Mithras said:
I have to say it has never actually occurred to me in all the years that I have owned horses, including when I was a student with little income and searching for my first job, that I would not retire a horse that I owned.

Since I know plenty of other people who think and do exactly the same, I can only assume that some people for whom this is an alien or just exceptionally difficult concept must all be hard bitten professional dealers.


Surely this is something you think about when you buy a horse in the first place?

And don't most cats, dogs, rabbits, hamsters and other pets have no use either? Other than in their company?
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So how many horses do you now have living happily in retirement?
 
be positive said:
So how many horses do you now have living happily in retirement?
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One. Out of three.

This one jumps out of fields, is impossible to lead but is very nice to ride and his hocks are beginning to show signs of wear and tear. He is also a very big horse.

So, since I'm still on livery, I've moved him to a place that can accommodate him, and have previously had extremely high fencing built to ensure he cannot jump out. I lead him in a bridle, which is perfectly doable as long as you can be bothered to put it on. I have learned so much from learning to deal with his quirks - he had been passed from home to home before I got him. Yes, I could have had him killed because he is in his late teens when he stopped jumping and I got a new horse, but I would only do that if he was in pain and suffering or being subjected to ridiculously heavy veterinary intervention to keep him going.
 
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Mithras said:
I have to say it has never actually occurred to me in all the years that I have owned horses, including when I was a student with little income and searching for my first job, that I would not retire a horse that I owned.

Since I know plenty of other people who think and do exactly the same, I can only assume that some people for whom this is an alien or just exceptionally difficult concept must all be hard bitten professional dealers.

Surely this is something you think about when you buy a horse in the first place?

And don't most cats, dogs, rabbits, hamsters and other pets have no use either? Other than in their company?
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The argument that small pets are just companions is not valid. They do not cost even a tiny fraction of what a horse does and, more importantly, they were always taken on with the sole intention of being nothing more than a companion pet. Very very few people buy a horse as just a pet. Almost everyone wants to ride.

The problems then come when you can no longer ride them. I'd image that most people have all fingers and toes crossed that their beloved horse will retire at 25yrs old happy and healthy. I'd imagine many would then happily retire them and foot the cost. If they won't (because riding is of a higher priority) then their choice is to sell/give away or have PTS. I personally think giving away/selling a useless horse is very wrong and therefore my recommendation would be PTS. The opnion on their priority to ride is a different argument.

That's an old horse, many of whom feel have earned retirement. Why what about a youngster, either too injured to do a useful ridden job, or too behaviourally messed up. Then what? Would you expect someone who has to pay livery to keep an unsound 4yr old for the next 20yrs?

I have both. I have my own land, enough to keep 2 horses easily. I couldn't really afford another.. I have an older girl who was a superstar for me in her younger days. She is almost retired, owes me nothing and will live out her days pottering around until.she starts to suffer.

However I also have a big and stupid 3yr old. If he snapped a tendon tomorrow and would never be sound, I'm afraid he'd be PTS. He's not spending the next 25yrs doing nothing in my field. I certainly would never sell him on.
 
Mithras said:
One.
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Lucky horse. How many horses do you have in total? I'm pretty sure you have a ridden horse. Like everyone, you must have a limit on the number of horses you can afford. 3 maybe? 4? And if they all (god forbid) became unridable? You retire all of them and stop riding?
 
Kallibear said:
The argument that small pets are just companions is not valid. They do not cost even a tiny fraction of what a horse does and, more importantly, they were always taken on with the sole intention of being nothing more than a companion pet. Very very few people buy a horse as just a pet. Almost everyone wants to ride.
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Actually that's not a valid argument either. Horses are one of the few "pets" that there is a whole industry built around where you can relatively easily find people to pay them to look after them for you. Its called livery.
 
Kallibear said:
Lucky horse. How many horses do you have in total? I'm pretty sure you have a ridden horse. Like everyone, you must have a limit on the number of horses you can afford. 3 maybe? 4? And if they all (god forbid) became unridable? You retire all of them and stop riding?
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Three. And do you know what, if I was that unlucky to end up with 3 unridable horses, then yes, I would give up riding, because I value life over a nice hack in the countryside or a pretty rosette. They've already done enough to earn their retirement anyway.
 
Mithras said:
One.
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I thought there would be more the way you were describing the many years of owing horses and keeping them in retirement, I have kept all of my competition horses, luckily I have my own land, just the one retiree now and one that may have to retire before he even really got going, they are the more difficult as he is certainly not mature enough to retire gracefully.

I do not think it is something people think about when buying, especially younger people that are far from retiring themselves they do not think that far ahead, it is not like getting a dog or cat, many horses live far longer than a dog.
 
Mithras said:
Actually that's not a valid argument either. Horses are one of the few "pets" that there is a whole industry built around where you can relatively easily find people to pay them to look after them for you. Its called livery.
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Think you missed the part about cost. As you'll know, livery isn't cheap and therefore becomes a very important deciding factor in your decision to keep or get rid of a horse. And if you pay someone else to care for your horse rather than do it yourself, they hardly count as 'companion animals' do they?
 
Just to go back to the pounds first..,pounds legally only keep a dog for 7 days, not a year. After 7 days, the dog needs to have been collected by the owner OR found a space in a rescue. Some pounds rehome directly to the public, most won't risk it. Please don't assume they only PTS old or behaviourally challenged dogs. They don't, they PTS around 70-80 dogs a day and the vast majority are young ( out of the puppy stage) dogs.

As for the PTS argument, you can't judge someone else and their decision. I made the decision to keep my mare in retirement livery with a friend which is effectively part livery. She lived out happily in the summer, dropped weight and was miserable come winter so I have had to change my plans, I owe this mare as she helped me reach my goal of getting to novice out eventing. If I now had a situation (and I hope I don't have this ever) whereby my young horse became a field ornament the bank would break and I could not keep 2 horses on livery and be unable to ride and do what I want to do. Selfish? Or realistic?
 
I haven't read the whole of this thread.
But my view is that if a horse has given you his best years and can no longer perform to the level you desire you owe it to him to do the best you can for him in his twilight years.
We have a 13.2 NF pony that took my daughter from being a mediocre, slightly nervous, non jumping rider to being a confident capable rider, capable of jumping 1m plus tracks in a matter of months.
He is now retired and slightly arthritic in front. Useless, yes, but perfectly happy in pampered retirement. It would be more convenient for us to PTS and use his stable for a horse in work. But I would no more get rid of him than I would my own mother. We owe him big style and will treasure him until the day he dies.
 
Got to say expect mentioning horses should be in food chain which still requires them to be PTS no-one who is anti-PTS a useless/un-ridable horse has come forward with an idea
 
be positive said:
For every pts thread there is another saying don't buy the 15 year old happy hacker that will not pass the vet unless it is almost free just in case it breaks in a few years time, this is sad as the 15 year old probably will happily go on for another 5-10 years, give endless pleasure and confidence yet it is considered valueless as there will be no resale at the end. I think unless you are a professional you should not expect to get either your money back or a profit when buying a horse, it should be looked at in a similar way to a car, not suggesting they should be treated like one, they may go down in value from day one, there is no guarantee you will get your money back if you sell, let alone make a profit.

Some way of restricting breeding would be a good step, culling poor quality stock is probably a necessary step which is unlikely but that comes back to pts which is not going to please some.
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You cant get your money back when you have a holiday the moment I buy a horse I consider the money gone .
On the older happy hackers I see some older horses literally limping round the roads I would never pass on one of my older horses and risk this fate for it there's one I see a fair bit near my mums I wince everytime .
People do buy these older horses and are then shocked when they discover it has arthritis and the bill reaches £1000 very quickly and the costs are on going that's the risk you take but you must be able to afford this cost before you take on this type of horse and realise that you may be unlucky and be into all of that very quickly .
 
LaMooch said:
Got to say expect mentioning horses should be in food chain which still requires them to be PTS no-one who is anti-PTS a useless/un-ridable horse has come forward with an idea
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You're right, many have lost the point of my question. I wasn't asking if you'd retire your useless horse if you COULD (of course you would) but what you'd do with the useless horae if you COULDN'T retire it.
 
Kallibear said:
Think you missed the part about cost. As you'll know, livery isn't cheap and therefore becomes a very important deciding factor in your decision to keep or get rid of a horse. And if you pay someone else to care for your horse rather than do it yourself, they hardly count as 'companion animals' do they?
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That's why you do them yourself in then. Yes, I do realise that two horses at DIY is more than one. More effort. More time. More money. More bother. Yes, I am aware of all that. Yes I realise you will have more free cash to spend if you pts the one you can't ride any more and more time. Aware of all that. Yes.
 
Kallibear said:
You're right, many have lost the point of my question. I wasn't asking if you'd retire your useless horse if you COULD (of course you would) but what you'd do with the useless horae if you COULDN'T retire it.
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Why don't you save yourself the bother of all the inquisitions and just write down what you would like people to do?

There is obviously some precisely worded response that you think people should come up with, otherwise they are being very stupid, and you will not be satisfied until you have led them to it by a series of questions which you have them answering like a mother with a child on the naughty step.
 
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be positive said:
I thought there would be more the way you were describing the many years of owing horses and keeping them in retirement, I have kept all of my competition horses, luckily I have my own land, just the one retiree now and one that may have to retire before he even really got going, they are the more difficult as he is certainly not mature enough to retire gracefully.
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I'm beginning to feel persecuted. If you would like to check back (which you probably will, since its the sort of thing people do on here), you will get to the bit where in a previous thread where I say that I have either made the decision to sell horses before they reached the age of 11 or 12, or keep them beyond that and retire them.
 
olivia x said:
So what would I do with a non-rideable but otherwise healthy horse? Most likely, keep it, love it and look after it and if it meant foregoing having another rideable horse-- then so be it. But that is only me-- and other people will make their own choices for their own reasons.

I make the choices that seem right for me. They may or may not be what someone else would do.
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You sound just like me.
I was brought up to realise a pet is for life.
My horse life generally revolves around owning four horses most of which are unrideable, but I will keep them regardless until they die.
 
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