So: if no PTS, what should we do with useless valueless horses?

Goldenstar said:
I would not send one of mine to the blood bank that's my choice .
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Can I ask why that is, GS? Someone else said that to me the other week but could not give me a reason why. For me it would depend on the horse. My late mare, I wouldn't have sent because she had management issues (laminitis) that would prevent her from being a suitable candidate, as well as not settling well in new surroundings, but also because I couldn't bear to part with her and I was her best hope of some sort of quality of life. My gelding is different. He is far more independent and socially competent. But most of all because I truly believe that the BB would give him the best possible chance of a comfortable and happy life. My only problem I have with it is that I will find it hard to part with him and I will really miss him. He's made things so much easier for me here with managing the other horses, I don't know what I will do without him. But at the moment he is on 2 bute a day (since being on none while out 24/7) and is still quite stiff and not himself. So after talking things through with my vet and having a long chat with the BB I have decided to give it a go. But if there is anything I don't like the look of when I take him, he will be coming back home with me, and I will keep him out 24/7 until I am once more forced to close the fields then he will be PTS.
 
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EllenJay said:
As I see it there are a limited number of options for an old, unrideable horse. These are:-

1. Continue to look after it, the way you always have
2. Send it to a blood bank (if suitable)
3. Send it to a retirement home for someone else to look after it
4. Sell it or give it away to someone else to look after it
5. Put To Sleep

Option 1 is obviously the ideal, but sometimes this isn’t possible, whether it is financial problems or time problems or another reason.
Option 2 is only suitable for a very few horses, and obviously only a limited amount of places available.
Option 3 is good if you are sure you can afford the livery costs on-going and that you know your horse can live out in all weathers.
Option 4 is dodgy – too many crooks out there to be able to guarantee a happy home for your old companion
Option 5 – if all other options are not suitable, then this is all that is left.
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Absolutely! Although I would say it's really only a choice between 1 and 5 for most 'useless' horses.

I'm not sure that many people do have healthy horses put to sleep because they are an inconvenience. I certainly have never met someone in real life that has done this.

Making the decision to have a horse PTS (one that hasn't suffered serious illness or injury) for lack of quality of life is very very difficult in practice and I can't believe that someone would put themselves through it for no good reason.

I do believe that when you take on any animal, you should do everything in your power to ensure their quality of life. If you can no longer do so then I also believe that having the horse put to sleep is a better option than passing the buck.
 
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have been following this post since last night and absolutely agree with ellen jay, i think rather than pts alot of people are offloading their "useless" to them horses onto others in the form of loans, companions and free to good homes so freeing up their time and finances to take on a shiney new not broken horse that they can ride. sites like preloved are full of the them. The ones with a concience do put that they are only suitable for light hacking due to reason xyz but not all do and if you are the sort like me to be actually looking for a 15 year old been there done that sort for light hacking and a quiet life you are then dumped with huge vet bills, feed supplements and a lot of time invested in caring for a horse that someone else didn't have the guts to do the right thing by! i know there are a lot of you with golden oldies out there that are in fine form and i think you are super lucky but there are also us who have been used as a dumping ground for a horse that is not rideable
 
thats true but not everyone is honest! got my mare onlwvtb, only to discover that her little bit stiff in mornings was actually bone spavin in both hocks and also she was almost blind in 1 eye( i had her vetted) when i told owner they said if i didn't want her i would have to find her another home as she would not take her back. I could not do that to the poor mare as she was lovely and i couldn't guarantee a good home for her somewhere else. In this case i really hope the lady was telling the truth that she did not know as i like her and she came across as being genuine but people do it- take buddy's mummy as a good example
 
One important point I would like to make is that is

If people were less judgemental and it was socially acceptable for someone to pts a fairly healthy but unrideable horse. Then maybe there wouldn't be so many passed around. Also not so much lying to make sure they got a new home
 
I don't know what the answer is - PTS has got to remain an option in lots of cases.

To me, many of the individual horses discussed on this thread sound as if they actually do have a value - a good wise old companion is 'priceless beyond rubies' for many people, including my own beloved Supernanny shetland mare. The problem is that not all unwanted horses can actually fulfill this role - they need to be well-socialised, easily handled, be able to thrive in the same management regime as their herd-mate(s), be 'available to work' so to speak for the majority of the time.

I'm afraid that many of these poorly conformed, unhandled young coloured cob types that seem to be so numerous would not be able to do the companion 'job', at least not in a lot of homes.
 
booandellie said:
thats true but not everyone is honest! got my mare onlwvtb, only to discover that her little bit stiff in mornings was actually bone spavin in both hocks and also she was almost blind in 1 eye( i had her vetted) when i told owner they said if i didn't want her i would have to find her another home as she would not take her back. I could not do that to the poor mare as she was lovely and i couldn't guarantee a good home for her somewhere else. In this case i really hope the lady was telling the truth that she did not know as i like her and she came across as being genuine but people do it- take buddy's mummy as a good example
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The woman I got my lad from must have seen me coming. I firmly believe that when I came to try him, he was buted up to the eye balls and slightly sedated. I had my doubts over his hocks, but as she was offering LWVTB, I thought 'what can I lose? If I like him, I would have him vetted. When I went to fetch him he was much more 'on his toes' completely different to the calm boy he was when I tried him, but I thought that he was just sensing he was going somewhere and didn't think much more of it. He went lame behind shortly after I got him home and was also freaking out when saddled. Owner denied all knowledge. I got the vet to him and xrayed his hocks and found a bone chip in the joint that needed an op. When I told the owner she just said that if I sent him back she would have him shot! I am a big softie and decided to give him a chance and she signed him over to me. I paid for him to be operated on. He came sound eventually but the saddling problem remained. He was subsequently found to have KS....blar blar blar. Anyway, the point is, I think she knew quite well he had serious issues and that LWVTB was the easiest way of off loading him to some mug (me). He's had 4 years with me, most of which have been retired and I have grown very fond of him. He's a real sweetie. But sadly his issues have caught up with him.
 
these poor coloureds usually end up in the hands of young kids who hammer the poor souls up and down the streets till they look like they will colapse_ it is rife where i am and makes you feel sick. It makes me feel even more sick when poeople who have them then put them in foal but this is another topic altogether!
 
catkin said:
I don't know what the answer is - PTS has got to remain an option in lots of cases.

To me, many of the individual horses discussed on this thread sound as if they actually do have a value - a good wise old companion is 'priceless beyond rubies' for many people, including my own beloved Supernanny shetland mare. The problem is that not all unwanted horses can actually fulfill this role - they need to be well-socialised, easily handled, be able to thrive in the same management regime as their herd-mate(s), be 'available to work' so to speak for the majority of the time.

I'm afraid that many of these poorly conformed, unhandled young coloured cob types that seem to be so numerous would not be able to do the companion 'job', at least not in a lot of homes.
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Very much agree. A horse that needs lots of extra hard feed to keep weight on in winter when out of work, one that can't be left alone when companion is being ridden, on that is difficult to handle or a bully or a rug ripper for example won't make a good companion - these kind sod things are often not a problem to manage when a horse is in useful work, but as a companion they become as issue. So passing one off as a good companion when not is almost as bad as selling a lame horse as sound, really...
 
Kallibear said:
Be careful what you joke about! Someone recently said, in all seriousness, that they'd rather turn their elderly horse free in the forest rather than have it 'unnecessarily' PTS!!
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I can't go in to detail, but I did consider putting my horse [healthy] in a field, and cancel the gun.
He was not elderly and not unhealthy.
 
There's a big difference between putting a horse down for the owner's convenience and in making that decision because there is no other option or because it's the best ting for him.

My boy is 18 and a happy hack because he's not allowed to jump becasue of foot issues. He can do a dressage test but he doesn't want to! He's also riddled with melanomas which aren't causing problems at the moment, but will one day. He has a home with me for life. I bought a 9 year old to event and do riding club stuff on and within 3 years I had a horse who couldn't do that and a few years after that he developed other issues which make him impossible to sell (not that I would anyway) even as a happy hacker. He is easily the sort of horse who might have been PTS by another owner on two counts but I could never do that.

I'm lucky I'm in a position where I have a decent job and income and can afford to keep him and with a bit of lateral thinking I still get to do what I want. I have a sharer for him and share a friend's horse who I compete on. If I couldn't though I'd just hack and persevere with the dressage and if he had to retire so be it. As long as he's happy and sound, he stays.

HOWEVER if there was any reason I couldn't guarantee he would be looked after and cared for (I do have a backup plan in my will so hopefully it would never come to it) either through illness or financial problems I would have him PTS. This would be for his benefit and not my convenience. I owe him too much to let him go to an uncertain future where someone would try to make a quick buck out of him and let him suffer as a result. His melanomas are now very obvious so realistically this would be by selling him for meat as nobody in their right minds would buy him, even without a vetting so the outcome would be the same.
 
People should stop breeding. Like the moorland ponies that go for meat for pennies. Farmer cant be making much for the work he puts in so why keep breeding them? When they round up all the horses on the moor each year, leave the stallion/s in and dont breed for a while. Problem solved! Never understood why they dont do this
 
Wagtail said:
Can I ask why that is, GS? Someone else said that to me the other week but could not give me a reason why. For me it would depend on the horse. My late mare, I wouldn't have sent because she had management issues (laminitis) that would prevent her from being a suitable candidate, as well as not settling well in new surroundings, but also because I couldn't bear to part with her and I was her best hope of some sort of quality of life. My gelding is different. He is far more independent and socially competent. But most of all because I truly believe that the BB would give him the best possible chance of a comfortable and happy life. My only problem I have with it is that I will find it hard to part with him and I will really miss him. He's made things so much easier for me here with managing the other horses, I don't know what I will do without him. But at the moment he is on 2 bute a day (since being on none while out 24/7) and is still quite stiff and not himself. So after talking things through with my vet and having a long chat with the BB I have decided to give it a go. But if there is anything I don't like the look of when I take him, he will be coming back home with me, and I will keep him out 24/7 until I am once more forced to close the fields then he will be PTS.
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To be honest I could not bear to think of my horse was managed like that it is a huge drop in living standards
A friends horse went and all your doing is delaying the PTS a bit and not having to cope with seeing it done or paying for it I felt it was a bit like dumping the horse giving yourself a warm feeling I would rather have PTS the horse myself at home, it was a TB not used to be out and unrugged .
I was not convinced the quality of life was what I would want for my own .
I keep my out of work horses exactly the same way they lived when they had a job except they won't be clipped and have minimal rugging if they can no longer do any work .
 
soulfull said:
One important point I would like to make is that is

If people were less judgemental and it was socially acceptable for someone to pts a fairly healthy but unrideable horse. Then maybe there wouldn't be so many passed around. Also not so much lying to make sure they got a new home
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I think it would also make people more willing to take on older horses. Like you I'd want to give a horse I'd known and loved a retirement, but would feel completely differently about retiring a newish horse. With an older horse you might have a decade to build up a partnership before retirement, but the odds that you are going to have to retire it soonish are much higher than with a younger one.

You can save yourself the PTS v retire dilemma by getting a younger horse. It seems a shame if you are just looking for a happy hacker and pushes you into the coloured cob market
 
Goldenstar said:
To be honest I could not bear to think of my horse was managed like that it is a huge drop in living standards
A friends horse went and all your doing is delaying the PTS a bit and not having to cope with seeing it done or paying for it I felt it was a bit like dumping the horse giving yourself a warm feeling I would rather have PTS the horse myself at home, it was a TB not used to be out and unrugged .
I was not convinced the quality of life was what I would want for my own .
I keep my out of work horses exactly the same way they lived when they had a job except they won't be clipped and have minimal rugging if they can no longer do any work .
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I completely see where you are coming from here and I have agonised over it for a long time, trying to work out whether my boy would prefer to be dead than being out without a rug during the warmer months. He too is a TB but has been roughed off a lot in the past 3 years. He grows an exceptionally thick winter coat so I have absolutely zero worries about him when he is in the barns for the winter as he stands in without a rug all day now. The only reason I rug him is because he is out at night. He was actually fine all last winter, coming in at night and going out for just 3 hours a day. He used to bounce out of his stable and canter sideways all the way to the turnout area, then go mad bouncing and rearing once out. But this winter he just plodded out of his stable and would just stand all tucked up in the turnout. I thought it was curtains and got the vet to see him. Quite prepared to put him to sleep. But she persuaded me to try him out 24/7 so I did and the change in him was almost instantaneous. He came off the bute and was his normal playful self again. He coped really well out even though it was winter. But my land became badly poached once the really wet weather set in and I had to bring him for some of the time. Even just being in for 7 hours a day, it has affected him badly. He needs to be able to move about. So really, my only concern about the BB is if the summer weather gets cold and wet. Though they do have field shelters and he does use them.

So I have to ask myself, if I were a horse, would I prefer a little bit of 'roughing it' (some would argue that is what horses are supposed to do), but with most of the time being in a nice social group, never lonely, and handled with kindness, or would I rather be dead? In an ideal world, he would stay here and continue to be treated like any of the riding horses, but his body cannot cope with that.

I won't get a 'warm feeling' when I leave him at the blood bank. I will be filled with regret at not being able to keep him myself. I will have some doubts, but not so many doubts as I would if I didn't give him the chance to make a go of it there. I have spoken to them long enough to banish many of the concerns I had at first. He is a very sociable horse. He is no trouble to handle. I think he is the absolute ideal candidate for that type of life. But not all horses are, and I wouldn't be sending him if I did not truly believe that it would be the best possible solution for him.

If I am honest, PTS would be easier in a practical sense, but I think he deserves a chance at life.
 
LD&S said:
I'm not the right person to answer this really as my three much loved horses will be pts when I can no longer care for them, they have little or no value in the big wide world but even if they did I would't sell. The charities are full and cannot even now take in the hundreds of horses that need a home, companions are ten a penny.
I will not risk them being shoved from pillar to post and potentially end up being neglected.
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I too, agree and will do exactly the same.
 
Wagtail said:
I completely see where you are coming from here and I have agonised over it for a long time, trying to work out whether my boy would prefer to be dead than being out without a rug during the warmer months. He too is a TB but has been roughed off a lot in the past 3 years. He grows an exceptionally thick winter coat so I have absolutely zero worries about him when he is in the barns for the winter as he stands in without a rug all day now. The only reason I rug him is because he is out at night. He was actually fine all last winter, coming in at night and going out for just 3 hours a day. He used to bounce out of his stable and canter sideways all the way to the turnout area, then go mad bouncing and rearing once out. But this winter he just plodded out of his stable and would just stand all tucked up in the turnout. I thought it was curtains and got the vet to see him. Quite prepared to put him to sleep. But she persuaded me to try him out 24/7 so I did and the change in him was almost instantaneous. He came off the bute and was his normal playful self again. He coped really well out even though it was winter. But my land became badly poached once the really wet weather set in and I had to bring him for some of the time. Even just being in for 7 hours a day, it has affected him badly. He needs to be able to move about. So really, my only concern about the BB is if the summer weather gets cold and wet. Though they do have field shelters and he does use them.

So I have to ask myself, if I were a horse, would I prefer a little bit of 'roughing it' (some would argue that is what horses are supposed to do), but with most of the time being in a nice social group, never lonely, and handled with kindness, or would I rather be dead? In an ideal world, he would stay here and continue to be treated like any of the riding horses, but his body cannot cope with that.

I won't get a 'warm feeling' when I leave him at the blood bank. I will be filled with regret at not being able to keep him myself. I will have some doubts, but not so many doubts as I would if I didn't give him the chance to make a go of it there. I have spoken to them long enough to banish many of the concerns I had at first. He is a very sociable horse. He is no trouble to handle. I think he is the absolute ideal candidate for that type of life. But not all horses are, and I wouldn't be sending him if I did not truly believe that it would be the best possible solution for him.

If I am honest, PTS would be easier in a practical sense, but I think he deserves a chance at life.
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I would keep my horse at home in such a situation with medication if necessary.
I am making no judgement either way I just am saying I would not do it to one of mine .
 
Goldenstar said:
I would keep my horse at home in such a situation with medication if necessary.
I am making no judgement either way I just am saying I would not do it to one of mine .
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As I have been trying to explain, the whole reason he is going to the BB is because he is NOT okay on medication. He has to be out 24/7 and I cannot give him that in the winter. So if he were yours and you would not send him there you would have to PTS. With him it is not a choice between retire at home or send to the BB, it is a choice between send to the BB or PTS. I have kept every single one of my horses for life and so it is painful to me that I am unable to do this for him even though I want to.
 
Wagtail said:
As I have been trying to explain, the whole reason he is going to the BB is because he is NOT okay on medication. He has to be out 24/7 and I cannot give him that in the winter. So if he were yours and you would not send him there you would have to PTS. With him it is not a choice between retire at home or send to the BB, it is a choice between send to the BB or PTS. I have kept every single one of my horses for life and so it is painful to me that I am unable to do this for him even though I want to.
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If I can't keep my horses comfy with medication yes I would PTS at home I would never let one be away from me .
 
baran said:
Well, lucky old you! A friend thought like that until she split from her husband, lost her job (financial sector) then became disabled. Horse was an unsellable waste of space. In the end a group of us clubbed together to have it put down.
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I'm sorry the fact I've got a secure job offends you so much! I can hardly help that. I trained hard for a long time for it. My circumstances are what they are. And I appreciate my job and that the money I earn enables me to keep my horses. If my OH lost his job it would not impact on my horses. No need to be so bitter about my life!
 
I think the blood bank is a lovely life for the right type of horse. I have spoken to two people who have sent their horse there. One lives only 15 minutes away and for several years has been able to see her horse peacefully grazing in the fields there on the times when he has been close enough to see from the road. The horses live a very natural life there in big herds. But it obviously does not suit every type of equine.

I have never before been in a situation with a horse that I have not been able to retire at home myself and so have never had to consider it before. It wouldn't have suited my other horses for many different reasons, but it does suit my current boy. I have no doubt that he will settle really well into the lifestyle there. I know no one will try to ride him and he will not be passed on. The fact that most of the horses are well into their twenties there, I think speaks volumes for the care they receive.
 
I'm sorry to dis-allusion you Wagtail but the BB is not all that great for a lot of horses. I live quite close to the Buckinghamshire one & have a friend that has worked there for many years. The horses aren't out at all for six months of the year, they live in big barns from October through till April. Nothing is medicated & the friendly 'knackerman' (for want of a better word) is a very regular visitor to collect horses with broken legs from kicks & also broken necks from the way they are fed in the fields.

Sorry to be blunt but i'm sick of reading on here what a wonderful life this place is for a horse. It's mostly just for owner's to not have to make that final decision & feel better about themselves.

I'm sure some horses do have long & happy lives there but not all of them do.

Good luck with yours, i hope he's one of the lucky ones.
 
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I also know people who worked at the BB and the stories I've heard are the same as HazyXmas relays. It's not a life I'd choose for any of mine and definitely not one who is older and has past injuries I'm afraid. Are you selling your horse to the BB Wagtail or loaning him to them? You know that if you sell then you give up all rights to them?
 
HazyXmas said:
I'm sorry to dis-allusion you Wagtail but the BB is not all that great for a lot of horses. I live quite close to the Buckinghamshire one & have a friend that has worked there for many years. The horses aren't out at all for six months of the year, they live in big barns from October through till April. Nothing is medicated & the friendly 'knackerman' (for want of a better word) is a very regular visitor to collect horses with broken legs from kicks & also broken necks from the way they are fed in the fields.

Sorry to be blunt but i'm sick of reading on here what a wonderful life this place is for a horse. It's mostly just for owner's to not have to make that final decision & feel better about themselves.

I'm sure some horses do have long & happy lives there but not all of them do.

Good luck with yours, i hope he's one of the lucky ones.
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I did know they were kept in barns for six months of the year. That would suit my boy better than his current stable for 7 hours of the day and turnout in the sand the rest of the time as he would be able to move about all the time.

Regarding the broken legs and necks, there are hundreds of horses and so I would expect many injuries. In the past ten years I have had two out of four horses I have owned break their legs in the field. I have been on a livery yard with 30 horses where two horses broke their necks in the same year.

At my yard my mare (one of seven) horses broke her shoulder in the field.

It does sound horrendous the way you put it, but with the law of averages, just because of the numbers we are talking about, I would expect a high number of casualties. I think you need to see it in perspective.

Regarding not wanting to make the final decision - I have no problem with that. I had to make it for my horse of a lifetime very recently. Believe me, that was much harder than it would be for any other horse.

I know my gelding and I know the type of life at the BB would suit him. As I have said, it would not suit every horse.

So is life at the BB really worse than death?
 
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