So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[Velcrobum]

It will be interesting to see what the outcome of the AGM is. It always saddens me that so few of the membership vote in these things. From the number of email reminders and bumpff in the post it was almost impossible to ignore, and voting online was really easy. To my mind, one of the reasons I am a member is so that I can cast my vote regarding how the membership is run. I fully accept that my voice is only one among many and that votes may not go the way I hope, but at least I can't complain that I didn't have my say.

We did not get any stuff in the post nor any emails. I found out after reading a letter sent to one of the broadsheet newspapers (on line) I read through all the stuff read through all the motions and voted accordingly again on line. I do think the NT is becoming woke and forgetting it is there to preserve the houses, artefacts, gardens and land given to them. If I visit a NT property I go for the property and its artefacts etc not woke white plastic cubes (Stourhead) for instance. Some of the recent very woke changes and requirements of the volunteers is worrying IMHO.

 

[palo1]

According to the newspaper I am currently reading only 1 hunt actually uses National Trust land . Is that true ?

I think it is unlikely that only 1 hunt uses NT land as in 2019 25 hunts were issued with NT licenses. The Trust has said only this year that they are happy with the way that trail hunting is carried out but I imagine that knowing the LACS and others would continue to put pressure on the NT to ban it, many hunts will have, where possible, moved away from a heavy reliance on NT land.

My own hunt was issued with NT licences in 2019 - with no problems whatsoever. That was for 1 place only which was not regularly used as there were so many other recreational land users on that ground (especially at weekends) that it was deemed by the hunt to be not especially safe to mix horses and hounds with so many people with dogs, bikes etc etc. I don't think we enjoyed using it because of the worries around that so it's not really been a fixture in recent years. We have other places entirely adjacent to that land where the landowners do not have so many visitors and where we are welcome.

Thankfully if the Trust bring in the ban then we will not be affected though others really will do; particularly the fell packs or so I understand. I hope that the MFHA will at least have carried out an impact assessment but perhaps not...

 

[palo1]

You are right in the fact that I am anti fox hunting, I have nothing against trail hunting but I am not convinced that trail hunting goes on very much.
In most hunts terrrier mens name has been changed to country men. You have told me the purpose of terrier men pre ban, Im fully aware of that thanks. My question is what is the reason for them going out trail hunting????? If the hunt is following a trail why would they be using it as a chance for fox control if the hunt is not chasing foxes but a trail....
I know the purpose of a bird of prey, its a excuse for " flushing foxes" in practice it means hunting foxes but having the bird there is another smokescreen.
Come on be honest with yourself, You know it, I know it, Fox hunting has done and still does go on illegally. You can defend it as much as you like and quote what you like but that will not change the facts. For someone that defends trail hunting you seem to know a lot about proper fox hunting....
My question about terrier men and birds of prey was to see if there was any sensible excuse for them. Seems not.

Well there is no convincing you @Sandstone but the provision of access to a trail hunt enables the landowner to get the fox control in as they have a dual purpose in supporting a trail hunt (in some ways laying trails which I know is contentious in itself but in no way illegal). For a lot of landowners the fact that trail hunting looks like pre ban hunting and enables them to get the terriermen/countrymen in to deal with troublesome foxes means that their organisation for the day is all in one. You seem to have ignored my point that the terriermen/countrymen were always an integral part of the hunt organisation and the Hunting Act continued that to be enabled because of the ways the exemptions and allowance for terrier work to continue.

In my own experience, which you must feel free to decry, trails are laid, we all set off with the huntsman and hounds working a trail, the terriermen sort of come along but then peel off to various bits of ground to carry out fox control activities (killing foxes legally) then they rejoin us with tea and biscuits or to head off to a new trail where again they might or might not visit a covert or known earth if that is the request of the landowner. On many days our countrymen/terriermen do not carry out fox control but come along for laying trails, the craic of following hounds following those trails, to open gates for the huntsman and keep an eye out for hounds. Sometimes it is fox control, sometimes not.

I have not witnessed any terrier work whilst trail hunting for some years in our hunt, although we can see the terriermen/countrymen at times our huntsman remains somewhat separate to them until the end of the day. There is usually much tea and sandwich sharing. Our countrymen are decent people doing ordinary jobs. I have no desire to get involved in terrier work though it requires skilled training of the dogs and clear shooting abilities by the men. It is vital that it is also safe so there is no interest for us in having hounds or people anywhere nearby.

It is fairly pointless me having typed all that out as you do not want to believe what I say but I will continue to defend hunting within the law in any case.

 

[Sandstone1]

Well as there is no convincing you either we have something in common.

It is not that I dont want to believe what you say, its that I KNOW hunting goes on under the guise of fox hunting. We all know it. Can you not grasp the fact that fox hunting with dogs is ILLEGAL and has been for years. Hunting within the law as you put it has simply been a cover for proper hunting in most cases. Defend it all you like, trail hunting if there really is such a thing, days are numbered and you can blame all the hunts that have been doing what they like for years.

 

[palo1]

@Surbie: 'Mismanaging a herd of deer has nothing to do with the ethics of wilfully torturing a completely different animal.'

Do you not think that willfully, knowingly and over a period of years allowing a large number of deer to starve to death has something to do with animal welfare and cruelty?

If you had read the Burns and Bonomy reports you will know that no-one has been able to prove or assert that terrier work (which is legal) or fox-hunting which is not are or were, respectively, more cruel to foxes than any other means of control. The fact that foxes are regarded as vermin and do need controlling is not remotely contentious. Foxes can be killed today in a great many ways, entirely legally and some of those ways are certainly less 'pleasant' than being killed by a pack of hounds whether you like those facts or not.

I totally understand that people do not like animals being killed at all when that animal is beautiful, iconic, fascinating, clever and social. They don't mind though when that animal is a rat or a pig which are all of those things. It is just about prejudice towards the animal being killed, those people doing the killing and the convenience or otherwise of that death to those making judgement about it.

 

[Red-1]

It was the Wynnstay Hunt, I believe the pony was badly injured as it was frightened by the hunt, it was the same day the Wynnstay chased and killed a fox in the back garden of an innocent family and two young children.

There may have been another killed after the Wynnstay had visited, but that is not my area. No one reported on this one, the owner simply PTS. We knew about it locally, the place that had 'hosted' the meet stopped hosting, but no, it didn't go to the press.

I would reckon only about 5% of damage or injuries is actually known about.

 

[Clodagh]

garden of an innocent family and two young children.

what were the family innocent of? Just saying that uninvolved would have been more accurate.

 

[stangs]

I should think at both sides of the argument can at least agree that this action will hopefully encourage more of a pressure on cracking down on illegal hunts by other trail hunts. Which no one can say is a bad thing.

 

[Koweyka]

what were the family innocent of? Just saying that uninvolved would have been more accurate.

So two children saw a fox ripped to pieces in their garden and you want to play word semantics

 

[Clodagh]

So two children saw a fox ripped to pieces in their garden and you want to play word semantics

Yes.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I should think at both sides of the argument can at least agree that this action will hopefully encourage more of a pressure on cracking down on illegal hunts by other trail hunts. Which no one can say is a bad thing.

Well, it needs something to boot them up the jacksii, because at this rate they are going down with a sinking ship.

Lots of talk of action from allegedly legal trail hunts, but as yet none to be seen, and the old guard are steering the ship straight onto the rocks.

 

[Koweyka]

Yes.

Well crack on knock yourself out, you probably find traumatised kids a jolly good wheeze.

 

[Surbie]

@Surbie: 'Mismanaging a herd of deer has nothing to do with the ethics of wilfully torturing a completely different animal.'

Do you not think that willfully, knowingly and over a period of years allowing a large number of deer to starve to death has something to do with animal welfare and cruelty?

Yes I do. I just don't think that's what is being discussed here.

Foxes can be killed today in a great many ways, entirely legally and some of those ways are certainly less 'pleasant' than being killed by a pack of hounds whether you like those facts or not.

I don't go around in a 'I Foxes' t-shirt, I don't disagree with the need to control numbers. Chasing and killing them with a pack of hounds remains illegal and, to me, both unethical and unjustifiable.

I ride on local NT land now and then. It isn't easy with the increase in dog walkers, cyclists and dirt bikes on the weekend and we pick our times quite carefully. I can't imagine a hunt wanting to deal with that.

 

[SantaVera]

We did not get any stuff in the post nor any emails. I found out after reading a letter sent to one of the broadsheet newspapers (on line) I read through all the stuff read through all the motions and voted accordingly again on line. I do think the NT is becoming woke and forgetting it is there to preserve the houses, artefacts, gardens and land given to them. If I visit a NT property I go for the property and its artefacts etc not woke white plastic cubes (Stourhead) for instance. Some of the recent very woke changes and requirements of the volunteers is worrying IMHO.

Didn't you get the magazine? I think its quarterly,the autumn one,it had the voting paper inside.

 

[SO1]

Hunting is on the way out for the reasons below.

1. Illegal fox hunting is happening under the pretence of accidents. Hunting is perceived as a sport for the wealthy and the general public has a particular dislike for wealthy arrogant people who break the law or use loopholes to get round things.
2. Hunts are going into places where they are not welcome and pets are getting hurt and children are seeing things that might be distressing and there is no way of avoiding this from happening as people don't know where and when meets are going to be. If hunts give warning to people they are going to be in the areas it not just the hunt sab problem they will have it will make people thing that the hunt is dangerous for pets and horses owners on land that the hunt may pass near or through making people more inclined to be anti hunting.
3. Growing animals rights movement. People understand that animals are killed for food or pest control but people taking pleasure from that process is very unpalatable for most people. The let's all eat sandwiches and have a drink and laugh and kill an animal attitude is what people don't like. Never mind that a pet cat has been killed or horses in fields injured or children have seen a fox ripped apart as long as we have all had a nice day out that is ok. That is what people don't like no remorse when things go wrong.
4. Money. A lot of younger people are more "woke" they may not want to support businesses that are associated with hunting. Landowners are not just traditional old money there are more wealthy people whose income comes from businesses who do not want their business damaged by being associated with hunting.
5. The rise of social media and celebrities. An unfortunate incident that has been filmed can go viral so a lot more people find out about it.
6. There is no celebrity endorsement of hunting it is too controversial for anyone to get involved. The advocates for hunting are not very media friendly or influential with the general public.

As I said before I have hunted as a child and loved it but knowing what I do now I would not hunt as an adult. I had no idea until I came on this forum that people's pets and horses had died or been severely injured due to the hunt or members of the general public such as children had to witness foxes being torn apart on their own land. I don't know how anyone can think that this is acceptable just so they can have a fun day out.

So two children saw a fox ripped to pieces in their garden and you want to play word semantics

 

[GSD Woman]

I do care actually, but the way I see it is that if hunts had kept a clean image this entire time and not killed even one fox, sabs would not exist. So it doesn't change my mind in the slightest. If there is no hunt there are no sabs, it's a win win situation.

I do feel that this attitude is niave. Aren't sabs in lock step with AR people? I can't believe that they aren't. they won't stop with hunting, raising animals for meat, wearing fur. The goal is no domesticated animals so no dogs, horses or cats. Never mind chickens, goats, sheep and cattle.

 

[Koweyka]

I do feel that this attitude is niave. Aren't sabs in lock step with AR people? I can't believe that they aren't. they won't stop with hunting, raising animals for meat, wearing fur. The goal is no domesticated animals so no dogs, horses or cats. Never mind chickens, goats, sheep and cattle.

That’s not true, I am vegan, I want hunting for fun to end, the only fur that needs to be worn should be worn by the animals it actually belongs too. I despise the dairy industry, the cows are victims and as a vegan I chose not to eat meat.

I also own horses ( most are rescued and all non ridden) I have several dogs, have hens that have come from terrible battery farm conditions.

I know many many Sabs who have a menagerie of animals and adore their cats and dogs and wouldn’t be without them.

 

[Rowreach]

That’s not true, I am vegan, I want hunting for fun to end, the only fur that needs to be worn should be worn by the animals it actually belongs too. I despise the dairy industry, the cows are victims and as a vegan I chose not to eat meat.

I also own horses ( most are rescued and all non ridden) I have several dogs, have hens that have come from terrible battery farm conditions.

I know many many Sabs who have a menagerie of animals and adore their cats and dogs and wouldn’t be without them.

How do your sab friends justify spraying hounds with chemicals, as a matter of interest?

 

[Koweyka]

How do your sab friends justify spraying hounds with chemicals, as a matter of interest?

I don’t know any sab friends that spray hounds with chemicals, if you can provide dates and locations and video evidence I can genuinely ask around ….

 

[Fred66]

I don’t know any sab friends that spray hounds with chemicals, if you can provide dates and locations and video evidence I can genuinely ask around ….

Or encouraging them across main roads, filming them being lifted off roads rather than helping, turning them off laid trails onto a live fox so they can produce “evidence” ? All of these things have happened and are still happening.
They have absolutely zero interest in animal welfare.

 

[GSD Woman]

That’s not true, I am vegan, I want hunting for fun to end, the only fur that needs to be worn should be worn by the animals it actually belongs too. I despise the dairy industry, the cows are victims and as a vegan I chose not to eat meat.

I also own horses ( most are rescued and all non ridden) I have several dogs, have hens that have come from terrible battery farm conditions.

I know many many Sabs who have a menagerie of animals and adore their cats and dogs and wouldn’t be without them.

You sound like a very passionate person. Have you read the research behind the AR groups, especially PeTA? The goal is the end of all owned animals. I have met many people against purebred dogs, food animals, animal research and any sort of dog event. They own animals from rescues. I honestly believe they don't realize that mandatory spay/neuter means the eventual end of cats and dogs.

You chose to be vegan. That's great for you but not for those of us that have medical reasons for needing low carb, high protein food. I have pullets that should lay in the spring. On my salary I can't afford to eat grocery store "free range" eggs. I do eat cheese as it is affordable and meets my needs. I also eat meat as rice and beans are out.

Fox hunting is very different here in the US. There is rarely a kill and the huntsmen will actually put out food near know dens/coverts when the winters are hard.
Sabs wouldn't get far in my state unless they were wearing blaze orange. The deer hunters, bear hunters and turkey hunters would shoot them since it is known to happen when someone in the woods makes movement and isn't wearing blaze orange. Yes, these people should be sure of what they're shooting before they fire but good old boys have a habit of mixing hunting with alcohol.

Do you eat the eggs from your hens? Did you ever ride your horses? Just curious as here they would be known as "lawn ornaments."

 

[Koweyka]

Or encouraging them across main roads, filming them being lifted off roads rather than helping, turning them off laid trails onto a live fox so they can produce “evidence” ? All of these things have happened and are still happening.
They have absolutely zero interest in animal welfare.

Ooh ooh don’t forget to say they are keeping road kill in freezers to bring out in the day, you forgot that one ….

And they build artificial earths so foxes have somewhere nice to live and be fed or is that for feeding them to fox hounds ….

Ooh those pesky invisible trails though, they can get a bit tricky timing it for a Fox to appear ….

What a load of rubbish hunters spout, I have lost count of how many hounds I have had to take out of barbed wire, how many times I have stopped traffic because hounds are chasing a fox across a road, caught loose horses on roads. Delivering hounds that have been left behind back to kennels.

Hunters like to blame Sabs for everything and that is your downfall, hunting has self destructed from within, you didn’t need Sabs to do it. If you had stopped breaking the law 16 years ago when the ban came in you wouldn’t be in this position now. You could be going for a jolly ride across the countryside and like the drag and bloodhounds do, but you just couldn’t stop, you couldn’t stop the urge to hunt and kill.

I have actually read on This is Hunting U.K. …. That hunting is now comparing its self to “Ethnic Cleansing” Has hunting got no shame ?

I have also just seen the evidence of two hunts that killed foxes yesterday, is that acceptable ?

Stop playing a blame game that you will always lose because hunting and repeatedly killing foxes and all those that stayed silent brought this situation on yourselves.

 

[Koweyka]

You sound like a very passionate person. Have you read the research behind the AR groups, especially PeTA? The goal is the end of all owned animals. I have met many people against purebred dogs, food animals, animal research and any sort of dog event. They own animals from rescues. I honestly believe they don't realize that mandatory spay/neuter means the eventual end of cats and dogs.

You chose to be vegan. That's great for you but not for those of us that have medical reasons for needing low carb, high protein food. I have pullets that should lay in the spring. On my salary I can't afford to eat grocery store "free range" eggs. I do eat cheese as it is affordable and meets my needs. I also eat meat as rice and beans are out.

Fox hunting is very different here in the US. There is rarely a kill and the huntsmen will actually put out food near know dens/coverts when the winters are hard.
Sabs wouldn't get far in my state unless they were wearing blaze orange. The deer hunters, bear hunters and turkey hunters would shoot them since it is known to happen when someone in the woods makes movement and isn't wearing blaze orange. Yes, these people should be sure of what they're shooting before they fire but good old boys have a habit of mixing hunting with alcohol.

Do you eat the eggs from your hens? Did you ever ride your horses? Just curious as here they would be known as "lawn ornaments."

 

[Koweyka]

I will be honest, some of Peta’s ideas are completely the opposite of many animal activists, not all activists are the same but all get lumped together under the same banner, it’s easier for those that are on the other side of the “argument”

All of my horses are lawn ornaments, they have various ailments or they have come from neglect situations, so all are none ridden, they are living their best life now, they want for nothing, they live as naturally as possible, but again this doesn’t fit the narrative of the pro hunt visions of Sabs.

I don’t eat the eggs of the hens, they are free range all day and sleep in a loft, they are fabulous characters each one is different. The eggs are collected and are given away to neighbours, I know they are cruelty free.

Being vegan is my choice, I totally understand not everyone can do this for many reasons other than not wanting to!

 

[Fred66]

What a load of rubbish hunters spout, I have lost count of how many hounds I have had to take out of barbed wire, how many times I have stopped traffic because hounds are chasing a fox across a road, caught loose horses on roads. Delivering hounds that have been left behind back to kennels.

Hunters like to blame Sabs for everything and that is your downfall, hunting has self destructed from within, you didn’t need Sabs to do it. If you had stopped breaking the law 16 years ago when the ban came in you wouldn’t be in this position now. You could be going for a jolly ride across the countryside and like the drag and bloodhounds do, but you just couldn’t stop, you couldn’t stop the urge to hunt and kill.

I possibly was not as clear as I could have been, same as many hunts hunt legally then I am sure many monitors/sabs care for animal welfare. However I have first hand seen incidents as I described so felt free to lump them all in the same bracket, which was lazy of me

I also witness them smoking which as these were previously tested on animals surely is hypocritical?

If you are honest then you will admit that there are some sabs that go out to disrupt the hunts and do not care whether they are hunting within the law or not, they get their enjoyment through spoiling it for others.

 

[Koweyka]

I possibly was not as clear as I could have been, same as many hunts hunt legally then I am sure many monitors/sabs care for animal welfare. However I have first hand seen incidents as I described so felt free to lump them all in the same bracket, which was lazy of me

I also witness them smoking which as these were previously tested on animals surely is hypocritical?

If you are honest then you will admit that there are some sabs that go out to disrupt the hunts do not care whether they are hunting within the law or not, they get their enjoyment through spoiling it for others.

 

[Koweyka]

I will agree I do not understand the smoking given how it is/was tested on animals, I personally have never smoked.

All I can say and I am being totally honest thats in my experience that every sab/monitor and anti I have worked with over many years has always had animal welfare at the front of their minds, they would never hurt a hound or a horse I don’t know anyone that has and if it was witnessed that an animal had been hurt they would and should never be allowed out again. They should be called out and punished for hurting an animal.

 

[Sandstone1]

Or encouraging them across main roads, filming them being lifted off roads rather than helping, turning them off laid trails onto a live fox so they can produce “evidence” ? All of these things have happened and are still happening.
They have absolutely zero interest in animal welfare.

Do you have proof of that?

 

[Sandstone1]

I possibly was not as clear as I could have been, same as many hunts hunt legally then I am sure many monitors/sabs care for animal welfare. However I have first hand seen incidents as I described so felt free to lump them all in the same bracket, which was lazy of me

I also witness them smoking which as these were previously tested on animals surely is hypocritical?

If you are honest then you will admit that there are some sabs that go out to disrupt the hunts and do not care whether they are hunting within the law or not, they get their enjoyment through spoiling it for others.

Just because someone does not agree with hunting does not make them a crazy weirdo! There are many, many types of animal cruelty and abuse and because someone tries to do something to stop one of them which is by the way illegal! does not mean they are lazy,crazy,smelly unemployed or any other term that pro hunters throw at them. Yes they are passionate about what they do. So are pro hunters but the thing is hunting is illegal. A blind eye has been turned in the past but that has to stop.

The idea that all anti hunters are all townies that dont understand the countryside is rubbish. I have been born and bred in the countryside, have horses and have had livestock in the past. I ride and I am not vegan. I still hate hunting and the fact that it still goes on. Maybe I am not the typical anti hunt person but I do know several people like me who hate hunting too.

Pro hunters have such a blinkered view of hunting. Its a tradition, its pest control, its a country thing etc etc. The fact is its had its day. like a lot of things that used to be a tradition such as cock fighting, dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting and many other forms of animal abuse. Yes I know some of these things still go on but they are all illegal.
Come on, its 2021 not 1921.

 

[sbloom]

Not me. I hunted for years. Attended marches in London opposed to the ban. For purely selfish reasons. I didn’t want my opportunity of riding with hounds taken away from me because I absolutely loved it. It was absolutely thrilling. However over the years I’ve come to realise that my responsibility to animal and countryside extends to more than me just enjoying it - I need to look to protect it. And trashing it for my own enjoyment doesn’t protect anything.

This 100%. Although I never actually hunted I attended a few Boxing Day meets on foot, I was a passionate believer that the countryside needed to be in control of its own interests. and that, on the same theme, the House of Lords should stay, as guardians of our land. I made a big effort to get my "B*ll*x to Blair" fleece covered back on TV, and succeeded.

Hunting is on the way out for the reasons below.

1. Illegal fox hunting is happening under the pretence of accidents. Hunting is perceived as a sport for the wealthy and the general public has a particular dislike for wealthy arrogant people who break the law or use loopholes to get round things.
2. Hunts are going into places where they are not welcome and pets are getting hurt and children are seeing things that might be distressing and there is no way of avoiding this from happening as people don't know where and when meets are going to be. If hunts give warning to people they are going to be in the areas it not just the hunt sab problem they will have it will make people thing that the hunt is dangerous for pets and horses owners on land that the hunt may pass near or through making people more inclined to be anti hunting.
3. Growing animals rights movement. People understand that animals are killed for food or pest control but people taking pleasure from that process is very unpalatable for most people. The let's all eat sandwiches and have a drink and laugh and kill an animal attitude is what people don't like. Never mind that a pet cat has been killed or horses in fields injured or children have seen a fox ripped apart as long as we have all had a nice day out that is ok. That is what people don't like no remorse when things go wrong.
4. Money. A lot of younger people are more "woke" they may not want to support businesses that are associated with hunting. Landowners are not just traditional old money there are more wealthy people whose income comes from businesses who do not want their business damaged by being associated with hunting.
5. The rise of social media and celebrities. An unfortunate incident that has been filmed can go viral so a lot more people find out about it.
6. There is no celebrity endorsement of hunting it is too controversial for anyone to get involved. The advocates for hunting are not very media friendly or influential with the general public.

As I said before I have hunted as a child and loved it but knowing what I do now I would not hunt as an adult. I had no idea until I came on this forum that people's pets and horses had died or been severely injured due to the hunt or members of the general public such as children had to witness foxes being torn apart on their own land. I don't know how anyone can think that this is acceptable just so they can have a fun day out.

Absolutely nailed it.

I do feel that this attitude is niave. Aren't sabs in lock step with AR people? I can't believe that they aren't. they won't stop with hunting, raising animals for meat, wearing fur. The goal is no domesticated animals so no dogs, horses or cats. Never mind chickens, goats, sheep and cattle.

I think you're right. I don't like the agenda but times will continue to change and we can resist or we can try and understand. I don't like their methods, even less than I like their agenda, and when it involves cruelty to other animals (hounds, deer etc) then it's utterly abhorrent. However, I believe there's a chance we won't even be riding horses in a century or so, when, as an example, saddle fitting is mitigation of the damage we do by riding them...