So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[stangs]

I don't like the agenda but times will continue to change and we can resist or we can try and understand. I don't like their methods, even less than I like their agenda, and when it involves cruelty to other animals (hounds, deer etc) then it's utterly abhorrent. However, I believe there's a chance we won't even be riding horses in a century or so, when, as an example, saddle fitting is mitigation of the damage we do by riding them...

As long as racing and polo are making £££ and making new money folks feel like old money, horse riding will exist. And, with how many cultures there are across the world using horses, I very much doubt that most of them will ever be affected by AR activists, beyond possibly some pressure in the West.

AR activists (if we're talking about the fanatical lot) are a small minority, with not much funding, and whose voice is only audible at all in the West. Most people couldn't care less about animal rights - and, specifically with horses, non-horsey people don't know any arguments beyond "this is abuse because horses should be wild" and therefore "that's stupid".

 

[sbloom]

As long as racing and polo are making £££ and making new money folks feel like old money, horse riding will exist. And, with how many cultures there are across the world using horses, I very much doubt that most of them will ever be affected by AR activists, beyond possibly some pressure in the West.

AR activists (if we're talking about the fanatical lot) are a small minority, with not much funding, and whose voice is only audible at all in the West. Most people couldn't care less about animal rights - and, specifically with horses, non-horsey people don't know any arguments beyond "this is abuse because horses should be wild" and therefore "that's stupid".

A ton of money used to be made from the slave trade. Everything changes, but unlikely any of us will be around to know whether my prediction is anywhere close to being right.

 

[ycbm]

turning them off laid trails onto a live fox so they can produce “evidence”

If that happens, it would be a lot more difficult to do if trail hunts stopped using fox scent and the huntsman was in control of his hounds like they are when a drag pack of fox hounds comes across a fox trail.

So much of this issue hangs around the scent trail hunts use. The good ones continue to use fox because they believe one day they will get fox hunting restored. The bad ones use it in order to claim that it is accidental when they hunt foxes and avoid prosecution.

The sabs believe all hunts using fox scent are happy to hunt fox (and who can blame them?)

Until trail hunts stop using fox scent this is going to go on and on.
.

 

[ycbm]

However, I believe there's a chance we won't even be riding horses in a century or so, when, as an example, saddle fitting is mitigation of the damage we do by riding them...

I agree, I predict the same. At some point in the far future, unless we have returned to an agrarian society because of resource depletion and climate change, it will no longer be acceptable to ride horses or neuter animals to keep them as pets. I write that knowing I am going to have my cat castrated in a week or two. There are already vets who will not neuter animals.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

From the pro hunt This is Hunting UK FB page.

'For what we have seen is deeply disturbing and be assured it certainly does not end with the National Trust's vote to ban Now in full swing, there is a very nasty underhanded form of ethnic cleansing sweeping through the Nation at a more than alarming rate, taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.'

Ethnic cleansing??? Steady on...

 

[ycbm]

From the pro hunt This is Hunting UK FB page.

'For what we have seen is deeply disturbing and be assured it certainly does not end with the National Trust's vote to ban Now in full swing, there is a very nasty underhanded form of ethnic cleansing sweeping through the Nation at a more than alarming rate, taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.'

Ethnic cleansing??? Steady on...

I'm shocked anyone thinks it's appropriate to use those words and I predict that will be changed very soon. But it does illustrate the attitude that got them into this mess.

They are never going to understand, are they, that they are in this pickle because too many hunts continue(d) to hunt fox and too many trall hunters who knew that was happening did nothing to stop it, or even to distance themselves?
.

 

[Old school]

Palo, you are marvellous with the energy you are expending to give an opinion from someone who knows the correct behaviour when hunting. Unfortunately you, and folks like you (possibly me) are in the minority at the management level of hunting. It is being run by people who have impossibly large egos and simply cannot 'read the room'. I have witnessed this first hand hunting in Wales and England. We in Ireland are still allowed to hunt legally but have hit other issues currently, insurance namely. However, the same issues are here re poor and arrogant leadership. But hats off to Palo for fighting the good fight and giving a perspective that rarely gets airtime or acknowledgement.

Re the future, personally I believe that the rearing or management of animals for commercial gain will be diminished overtime and subsequently outlawed. How long.....no idea. But that is the end game.

Fire the arrows.......

 

[Regandal]

I don’t know any sab friends that spray hounds with chemicals, if you can provide dates and locations and video evidence I can genuinely ask around ….

I have no dog in this fight (?), but found this easily. What is in the spray bottle?

 

[palo1]

Palo, you are marvellous with the energy you are expending to give an opinion from someone who knows the correct behaviour when hunting. Unfortunately you, and folks like you (possibly me) are in the minority at the management level of hunting. It is being run by people who have impossibly large egos and simply cannot 'read the room'. I have witnessed this first hand hunting in Wales and England. We in Ireland are still allowed to hunt legally but have hit other issues currently, insurance namely. However, the same issues are here re poor and arrogant leadership. But hats off to Palo for fighting the good fight and giving a perspective that rarely gets airtime or acknowledgement.

Re the future, personally I believe that the rearing or management of animals for commercial gain will be diminished overtime and subsequently outlawed. How long.....no idea. But that is the end game.

Fire the arrows.......

Thank you.

 

[ycbm]

I have no dog in this fight (?), but found this easily. What is in the spray bottle?

A quick Google would suggest either citronella or anti-mate, and also that the "official" advice to sabs is never to spray the dogs.
.

 

[palo1]

I don’t know any sab friends that spray hounds with chemicals, if you can provide dates and locations and video evidence I can genuinely ask around ….

I think that some footage of that has been shared.

I guess you must be a member of the Hunt Saboteurs Association? Last summer they were actively condoning the throwing of fireworks and missiles at police horses during Kill the Bill demonstrations.

Here is a report of the event: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/firework-thrown-police-horses-kill-5235776

Here is the local HSA (Mendip Hunt Sabs) egging them on: https://m.facebook.com/mendiphuntsabs/photos/a.2093836904037079/3807901965963889/?type=3

I think this was discussed on this forum earlier this summer.

I am interested to know how you deal with rats - I have asked LACS and HSA many times via emails and messages but have never had a response so I would be grateful if you could clarify how that can be approached. Personally, I don't use poison as it such a grim death. I use my terrier to harrass rats as much as possible (and kill them when he can) and I use an air rifle with a night sight though I am not as good as my son at dispatching them sadly. It takes practice.

It would be better if I had more terriers I think.

I would also be interested to hear your view on the Bonomy review where it was considered that fox welfare and pest control might best be served with a pack of hounds. I know that is deeply offensive to you but it was an independent review designed to clarify how to tighten the Hunting Act; the conclusions were not what the SNP wanted, obviously but I would be interested to hear how you respond to that.

I know too that the HSA approves of the disposing and damaging of traps - this is frequently reported by Sabs; for example here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1006641279818747904

There are many instances of this. I understand a great dislike of trapping but it is legal and conservation agencies also use traps where they feel appropriate (for mustelids and hedgehogs as well as some birds) in order to protect other more vulnerable wildlife. Chris Packham is in the unfortunate position of campaigning both against all traps and supporting the RSPB who use them.

How do you approach the issue of trapping, not to mention the illegal decommissioning of traps on private property?

 

[palo1]

A quick Google would suggest either citronella or anti-mate, and also that the "official" advice to sabs is never to spray the dogs.
.

Yet a number of hounds were treated fairly recently by a vet for something that definitely wasn't inoffensive...

 

[ycbm]

Yet a number of hounds were treated fairly recently by a vet for something that definitely wasn't inoffensive...

Absolutely wrong, I don't know how they can square that with their stated objectives.
.

 

[Koweyka]

I think that some footage of that has been shared.

I guess you must be a member of the Hunt Saboteurs Association? Last summer they were actively condoning the throwing of fireworks and missiles at police horses during Kill the Bill demonstrations.

Here is a report of the event: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/firework-thrown-police-horses-kill-5235776

Here is the local HSA (Mendip Hunt Sabs) egging them on: https://m.facebook.com/mendiphuntsabs/photos/a.2093836904037079/3807901965963889/?type=3

I think this was discussed on this forum earlier this summer.

I am interested to know how you deal with rats - I have asked LACS and HSA many times via emails and messages but have never had a response so I would be grateful if you could clarify how that can be approached. Personally, I don't use poison as it such a grim death. I use my terrier to harrass rats as much as possible (and kill them when he can) and I use an air rifle with a night sight though I am not as good as my son at dispatching them sadly. It takes practice.

It would be better if I had more terriers I think.

I would also be interested to hear your view on the Bonomy review where it was considered that fox welfare and pest control might best be served with a pack of hounds. I know that is deeply offensive to you but it was an independent review designed to clarify how to tighten the Hunting Act; the conclusions were not what the SNP wanted, obviously but I would be interested to hear how you respond to that.

I know too that the HSA approves of the disposing and damaging of traps - this is frequently reported by Sabs; for example here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1006641279818747904

There are many instances of this. I understand a great dislike of trapping but it is legal and conservation agencies also use traps where they feel appropriate (for mustelids and hedgehogs as well as some birds) in order to protect other more vulnerable wildlife. Chris Packham is in the unfortunate position of campaigning both against all traps and supporting the RSPB who use them.

How do you approach the issue of trapping, not to mention the illegal decommissioning of traps on private property?

Actually No I am not a member of the HSA.

Your continued production of reports trying to justify hunting make me zone out, all I see is “trophic cascade’“ and I actually just can’t be bothered as you continually cherry pick what suits you. I strongly suspect Lacs see your emails and feel the same way.

Why don’t you get more terriers and kill more rats, you clearly enjoy it….the Palo Pied Piper

Get yourself some traps, kill some birds….you do know they are banned in the country that invented them because they are considered in humane and cruel

Spray bottles are citronella, when police are around we spray our faces to prove it’s harmless, my local hunt were lambasted by police for claiming it was a chemical weapon. Citronella has saved many foxes lives.

You continually deflect Palo, it’s like watching a tragedy unravel, hunting is dying you have to accept that, this ethnic cleansing claim that old Barclay has come out with is as abhorrent as your Sikh Temple one.

Face it, you have been caught out, found out and trail hunting has been exposed, in your earlier rants you used to claim you never knew about hunts breaking the law, yet recently you totally contradict yourself.

For someone who claims they don’t kill/hunt foxes you actually come across as someone that is trying advocate it.

What a world we live in when the people who want to see an end to wildlife and animal cruelty are continually portrayed as the bad guys.

 

[Miss_Millie]

From the pro hunt This is Hunting UK FB page.

'For what we have seen is deeply disturbing and be assured it certainly does not end with the National Trust's vote to ban Now in full swing, there is a very nasty underhanded form of ethnic cleansing sweeping through the Nation at a more than alarming rate, taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.'

Ethnic cleansing??? Steady on...

The definition of ethnic cleansing - 'the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another'

It's super cringe and embarrassing and downright ridiculous that they're using this term.

 

[ycbm]

For someone who claims they don’t kill/hunt foxes you actually come across as someone that is trying advocate it.

Putting words in her mouth here but Palo agrees with fox hunting but not with doing it illegally.

It's a position driven by great depth of knowledge and a deep conviction that is the right thing for the countryside.

I totally respect that view, even though I disagree with it, and feel very sad for anyone losing an activity that they love.
.

 

[Koweyka]

Putting words in her mouth here but Palo agrees with fox hunting but not with doing it illegally.

It's a position driven by great depth of knowledge and a deep conviction that is the right thing for the countryside.

I totally respect that view, even though I disagree with it, and feel very sad for anyone losing an activity that they love.
.

She is persistent I will give her that, but she and all the other trail hunts have only themselves to blame for losing what they had. So many years to adapt and ensure wildlife wasn’t being harmed and the law was ignored and hunts buried their heads and this situation is the result of that.
Even this weekend foxes were killed, hunting has no wish to adapt, for many participants the will to change just isn’t there.

 

[paddy555]

From the pro hunt This is Hunting UK FB page.

'For what we have seen is deeply disturbing and be assured it certainly does not end with the National Trust's vote to ban Now in full swing, there is a very nasty underhanded form of ethnic cleansing sweeping through the Nation at a more than alarming rate, taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.'

love it. what they regard as ethnic cleansing those of us who have had property damaged by them or their animals in our fields simply regard as arrogance.

taking out anybody's opinion who may differ from those who have a model in their mind as to just how they want our Countryside to be.'

I'm struggling with this sentence. Are they talking about themselves?

 

[SEL]

The definition of ethnic cleansing - 'the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another'

It's super cringe and embarrassing and downright ridiculous that they're using this term.

Made me cringe too.

I'm fairly ambivalent about hunting foxes, but I do hate the arrogance and blatant disregard of the law shown by hunts local to here. They really are at risk of losing their entire sport and the associated jobs because of a number of hunts that either refuse to abide by the law or pay lip service to it.

trail hunts have only themselves to blame for losing what they had. So many years to adapt and ensure wildlife wasn’t being harmed and the law was ignored and hunts buried their heads and this situation is the result of that.
for many participants the will to change just isn’t there.

Sadly I agree with you. And then they get angry when landowners refuse access.

 

[palo1]

Actually No I am not a member of the HSA.

Your continued production of reports trying to justify hunting make me zone out, all I see is “trophic cascade’“ and I actually just can’t be bothered as you continually cherry pick what suits you. I strongly suspect Lacs see your emails and feel the same way.

Why don’t you get more terriers and kill more rats, you clearly enjoy it….the Palo Pied Piper

Get yourself some traps, kill some birds….you do know they are banned in the country that invented them because they are considered in humane and cruel

Spray bottles are citronella, when police are around we spray our faces to prove it’s harmless, my local hunt were lambasted by police for claiming it was a chemical weapon. Citronella has saved many foxes lives.

You continually deflect Palo, it’s like watching a tragedy unravel, hunting is dying you have to accept that, this ethnic cleansing claim that old Barclay has come out with is as abhorrent as your Sikh Temple one.

Face it, you have been caught out, found out and trail hunting has been exposed, in your earlier rants you used to claim you never knew about hunts breaking the law, yet recently you totally contradict yourself.

For someone who claims they don’t kill/hunt foxes you actually come across as someone that is trying advocate it.

What a world we live in when the people who want to see an end to wildlife and animal cruelty are continually portrayed as the bad guys.

Blimey. I am sorry that you didn't receive my post in the spirit in which it was intended which was genuinely one of trying to question and understand your perspective. I thought I had asked those questions respectfully but clearly as I was really hoping to get to grips with some of those issues with someone coming from a very different approach.

I don't, in fact, enjoy killing rats; I love them - they are incredible, intelligent, social animals that make wonderful companions. I have nothing but respect for them but they are incredibly damaging in some ways and have killed at least 2 of my sweet bantams. I have no desire to take any form of revenge on them for that, before you suggest that but in order to safeguard feed, straw and animals I have to deal with our rats.

As I believe it is the quickest and most humane method I use my terrier to disturb them and kill them when possible. If that wasn't legal I don't know what I would do as I loathe using poison and we don't have any poison on our property.

I understand that you may have a real issue with me being so open about using a dog to kill a rat but I did really want to find out what alternative you thought might be possible. I care enormously about the welfare of animals that I am directly responsible for as well as all of those that live on our property.

I do not want to trap anything either and have never, ever set a trap or snare yet I am aware of respectable conservation agencies that use them. I am entirely aware that Larsen traps are illegal in their country of origin.

I just wanted to know what you thought but if you don't want to respond that is fine; I don't think I deserved quite such an aggressive and personal reply.

 

[palo1]

Putting words in her mouth here but Palo agrees with fox hunting but not with doing it illegally.

It's a position driven by great depth of knowledge and a deep conviction that is the right thing for the countryside.

I totally respect that view, even though I disagree with it, and feel very sad for anyone losing an activity that they love.
.

Thank you.

 

[palo1]

Made me cringe too.

I'm fairly ambivalent about hunting foxes, but I do hate the arrogance and blatant disregard of the law shown by hunts local to here. They really are at risk of losing their entire sport and the associated jobs because of a number of hunts that either refuse to abide by the law or pay lip service to it.



Sadly I agree with you. And then they get angry when landowners refuse access.

I think the reference to ethnic cleansing is pretty dire tbh but I know that across a range of 'rural issues' forums (planning, environment, conservation, farming and shooting) there is a real sense of this, a sense of injustice about the level of change and damage that rural communities, landscapes and activities are seeing at the moment. This is very poorly expressed in my view but I think it is wrong to decry what people feel and tell them that they shouldn't express that. I am certainly not comfortable with the idea that it is ethnic cleansing but I don't also deny that there are serious issues and conflicts that shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[Surbie]

I just wanted to know what you thought but if you don't want to respond that is fine; I don't think I deserved quite such an aggressive and personal reply.

No, I don't think you did either. It was unnecessary.

 

[HanniRT]

Why don’t you get more terriers and kill more rats, you clearly enjoy it….the Palo Pied Piper

I don't post much anymore, tend to stay out of hunting debates in general but I'm not sure how you expect this to be helpful? To your cause that is.

That is clearly not what she said or meant. If necessary, I'm happy to shoot rats. I don't get pleasure out of it. It's just something that needs doing.

 

[SEL]

I think the reference to ethnic cleansing is pretty dire tbh but I know that across a range of 'rural issues' forums (planning, environment, conservation, farming and shooting) there is a real sense of this, a sense of injustice about the level of change and damage that rural communities, landscapes and activities are seeing at the moment. This is very poorly expressed in my view but I think it is wrong to decry what people feel and tell them that they shouldn't express that. I am certainly not comfortable with the idea that it is ethnic cleansing but I don't also deny that there are serious issues and conflicts that shouldn't be dismissed.

I agree with you - I live in what was a quiet rural area but which has 1000s of homes going on productive farmland to hit Westminster planning targets. But that doesn't mean hunts can break the law and blatantly disregard property boundaries crossing land when the hounds catch a scent.

Most people around here couldn't care less about the local hunt UNTIL they damage property, cause injuries to livestock etc. Then stories hit the local network and it becomes another nail in their coffin. It's a shame for those who follow regulations but pressure on those that don't can only really come from the hunting community imo

 

[palo1]

I agree with you - I live in what was a quiet rural area but which has 1000s of homes going on productive farmland to hit Westminster planning targets. But that doesn't mean hunts can break the law and blatantly disregard property boundaries crossing land when the hounds catch a scent.

Most people around here couldn't care less about the local hunt UNTIL they damage property, cause injuries to livestock etc. Then stories hit the local network and it becomes another nail in their coffin. It's a shame for those who follow regulations but pressure on those that don't can only really come from the hunting community imo

I can understand that. I am very glad that our hunt only go where we are welcome - that may be largely due to the kind of land we access and I can see that hunting in some parts of the UK is unrealistic, impractical and disruptive. The MFHA should have addressed some of those issues a very long time ago as well as those incidents of poor behaviour.

 

[canteron]

How do your sab friends justify spraying hounds with chemicals, as a matter of interest?

So there are vile people on both sides - but the question here is whether the hunts can manage themselves and conform with the law to save their sport. Or whether the ‘bad eggs’ will bring the whole thing crashing down.

It is the hunts who have the problem PR problem here.

 

[Koweyka]

Blimey. I am sorry that you didn't receive my post in the spirit in which it was intended which was genuinely one of trying to question and understand your perspective. I thought I had asked those questions respectfully but clearly as I was really hoping to get to grips with some of those issues with someone coming from a very different approach.

I don't, in fact, enjoy killing rats; I love them - they are incredible, intelligent, social animals that make wonderful companions. I have nothing but respect for them but they are incredibly damaging in some ways and have killed at least 2 of my sweet bantams. I have no desire to take any form of revenge on them for that, before you suggest that but in order to safeguard feed, straw and animals I have to deal with our rats.

As I believe it is the quickest and most humane method I use my terrier to disturb them and kill them when possible. If that wasn't legal I don't know what I would do as I loathe using poison and we don't have any poison on our property.

I understand that you may have a real issue with me being so open about using a dog to kill a rat but I did really want to find out what alternative you thought might be possible. I care enormously about the welfare of animals that I am directly responsible for as well as all of those that live on our property.

I do not want to trap anything either and have never, ever set a trap or snare yet I am aware of respectable conservation agencies that use them. I am entirely aware that Larsen traps are illegal in their country of origin.

I just wanted to know what you thought but if you don't want to respond that is fine; I don't think I deserved quite such an aggressive and personal reply.

Palo we have danced this dance for months, you fire all this nonsense at me. What do you want me to say when you continually ask me how I would kill things, how I feel about using dogs to kill rats, larssen traps, snares, mink, deer the list is endless you aren’t interested you just want to provoke a response and when you get one you don’t like you play the victim, it’s a pattern with you, you provoke and then say oh I don’t mean it that way.

For all those saying what an aggressive response go back and read the “Hunting is in a spot of bother” all ten million posts. The amount of flak I have taken over the months has been relentless, it doesn’t actually bother me because I am advocating for wildlife and I am one of the few who actually goes out and monitors hunts and has seen first hand how hunts regularly flout the law and hunt and kill foxes and that is the crux of all of this.

 

[palo1]

Palo we have danced this dance for months, you fire all this nonsense at me. What do you want me to say when you continually ask me how I would kill things, how I feel about using dogs to kill rats, larssen traps, snares, mink, deer the list is endless you aren’t interested you just want to provoke a response and when you get one you don’t like you play the victim, it’s a pattern with you, you provoke and then say oh I don’t mean it that way.

For all those saying what an aggressive response go back and read the “Hunting is in a spot of bother” all ten million posts. The amount of flak I have taken over the months has been relentless, it doesn’t actually bother me because I am advocating for wildlife and I am one of the few who actually goes out and monitors hunts and has seen first hand how hunts regularly flout the law and hunt and kill foxes and that is the crux of all of this.

@Koweyka - it is entirely relevant to any debate to understand what other people think and how else they believe we could manage things better. I really don't understand why you are not even going to try to explain how you would prefer to see some wildlife management carried out. The reason why that is significant to me and others like me is because of the difficult contradictions in the various debates around wildlife management where some conservation charities, government organisations, farmers, pro hunters etc feel that killing has to be a part of that management and where others, including animal rights activists and ethical vegans believe that to be utterly wrong. There can be no hope of constructive discussion or movement from anyone unless those perspectives and beliefs are discussed openly and with respect.

I hope I have not given you 'flak' personally as that is deeply unpleasant; I know how that feels directly in relation to my views about hunting although I still think it is important to communicate those views. I don't have to get involved, to take the flak, to read upsetting things etc but I do chose that. I am not just hoping to provoke a response from you; I am hoping to find out what you think is the best approach as that does interest me and you have a very different perspective to my own. I am also interested to know in what context you carry out hunt monitoring if you are not part of an organised group; as an individual alone I imagine that is very difficult.

 

[Sandstone1]

Spraying a hound directly like that is clearly wrong. It should be citronella to distract the hounds from the sent. I have no idea why the hound was sprayed directly but yes there is good and bad on both sides. I have seen plenty of video of pro hunt verbally and physically abusing sabs. Two wrongs dont make a right and spraying a hound directly like that is wrong.