So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[minesadouble]

I'm glad someone shared that video.
I'm not justifying violence against hunt monitors but how many of us, with a dog or dogs, would be on am assault charge if someone did that to their dog?
Because I certainly would!

 

[Koweyka]

@Koweyka - it is entirely relevant to any debate to understand what other people think and how else they believe we could manage things better. I really don't understand why you are not even going to try to explain how you would prefer to see some wildlife management carried out. The reason why that is significant to me and others like me is because of the difficult contradictions in the various debates around wildlife management where some conservation charities, government organisations, farmers, pro hunters etc feel that killing has to be a part of that management and where others, including animal rights activists and ethical vegans believe that to be utterly wrong. There can be no hope of constructive discussion or movement from anyone unless those perspectives and beliefs are discussed openly and with respect.

I hope I have not given you 'flak' personally as that is deeply unpleasant; I know how that feels directly in relation to my views about hunting although I still think it is important to communicate those views. I don't have to get involved, to take the flak, to read upsetting things etc but I do chose that. I am not just hoping to provoke a response from you; I am hoping to find out what you think is the best approach as that does interest me and you have a very different perspective to my own. I am also interested to know in what context you carry out hunt monitoring if you are not part of an organised group; as an individual alone I imagine that is very difficult.

Because on the other thread we have gone through it and through and through it and I simply can’t see the point of the same debate starting again on this thread.

I don’t kill anything, not even down to the tiniest fly, I once accidentally squashed a moth when I was about seven and I still vividly remember it. That’s my mindset, I move snails and slugs off the road, I take part in toad patrols carrying toads safely to their breeding grounds. My whole being is geared into not harming or allowing an animal to be harmed if I can stop it. That’s who I am, a lot of you may not understand that

If animals have to be killed and all other alternatives have been explored then I pray it’s done with dignity and humaneness, however fox hunting is not humane it just isn’t.

I have refrained from posting all the images I have of the dismembered foxes, of hounds running around with severed foxes heads in their mouths, believe me they do not die instantly from a nip to the neck. I sometimes manage to retrieve the bodies, if we beat the terrier men to them and I look in their eyes, it’s not peaceful. I wrap them in my jumpers and we bury them with dignity or we hand them to the police for post mortem.

My group is totally independent, there are a lot of those around now. We make our own decisions, but we work along side Sabs. We just prefer to be autonomous.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I had a quite bizarre encounter with a sab last season. I normally try and keep out of it all while keeping an eye on the hunt when they are here.

I didn't even realise that he was a sab. The (legit) hunt was here, but hounds were in a muddle and couldn't pick up the trail with any conviction. Most of the hunt left, including the travelling circus of pro hunt spectators.

Feeling brave, I approached him to ask which group he was from. He told me he was a sab. 'They are trail hunting now, aren't they?' I asked him, re local pack. He agreed that they were now. He asked me if I had seen the webinars, and I told him that I had, and how revealing they were.

We were then left being apparently the only two people left bothered about a small group of lost hounds who were milling about near and on the road. The hunt and support had long gone. He wanted to drive off to keep up with the hunt, but he didn't want to leave hounds there in case they got run over. I ended telling him that I'd make sure hounds were safe so he could drive off! So he did, and I did.

It's not the first time that I've had to step in to slow traffic down to stop hounds getting run over, but it's certainly the first time, and likely only time, that I have cooperated with a sab to do so!

ETA That day, the sabs did not interfere at all with the hunt, they were just out keeping an eye on them to make sure that they were behaving.

 

[Rowreach]

I don’t know any sab friends that spray hounds with chemicals, if you can provide dates and locations and video evidence I can genuinely ask around ….

I have witnessed it first hand on far too many occasions, and also the type of events that Fred has mentioned. It's normal practice among sabs and as you are one, you must be aware of it, even if you haven't done it yourself.

The worst intervention by sabs that I ever saw (and I was there for the whole thing) was in the 90s when a couple of them wrested a fox away from hounds, denying it a quick death, and then sat with the critically injured fox at the roadside waiting for the RSPCA vet to arrive. They refused the attempts of the terriermen to end its suffering, and instead the fox was in agony waiting for the vet who took one look, put the fox to sleep, and then berated the sabs for their actions.

These were visiting sabs whose usual hunt had cancelled that day so they joined ours, who were not one bit impressed as they had a very good relationship with our hunt with both sides being able to express differing views without resorting to being utter pr1cks.

Anyone involved with the sabs would be able to corroborate that incident because it impacted on them quite badly at the time.

 

[Fred66]

Just because someone does not agree with hunting does not make them a crazy weirdo! There are many, many types of animal cruelty and abuse and because someone tries to do something to stop one of them which is by the way illegal! does not mean they are lazy,crazy,smelly unemployed or any other term that pro hunters throw at them. Yes they are passionate about what they do. So are pro hunters but the thing is hunting is illegal. A blind eye has been turned in the past but that has to stop.

The idea that all anti hunters are all townies that dont understand the countryside is rubbish. I have been born and bred in the countryside, have horses and have had livestock in the past. I ride and I am not vegan. I still hate hunting and the fact that it still goes on. Maybe I am not the typical anti hunt person but I do know several people like me who hate hunting too.

Pro hunters have such a blinkered view of hunting. Its a tradition, its pest control, its a country thing etc etc. The fact is its had its day. like a lot of things that used to be a tradition such as cock fighting, dog fighting, bear baiting, badger baiting and many other forms of animal abuse. Yes I know some of these things still go on but they are all illegal.
Come on, its 2021 not 1921.

In what respect is this a response to my post?

I have not called people crazy or weirdos, nor have I referred to them as lazy, smelly or unemployed

Hunting foxes with hounds and not following any of the exemptions is illegal and is subject to prosecution, trail hunting is not.

People going out armed with whips, chemical sprays, horns and trespassing on private land are committing aggravated trespass and are subject to prosecution.

Two wrongs never make a right, and hopefully the hunts that were continuing to flout the law will stop. Could I ask whether the same can be said for the sabs ?

 

[ycbm]

Two wrongs never make a right, and hopefully the hunts that were continuing to flout the law will stop. Could I ask whether the same can be said for the sabs ?

Recent history of illegal hunting in Cheshire and long history of drag hunting would suggest that the answer to that is yes.

I think they will move on to sabbing shooting live birds, though, and they will find plenty of support among ordinary folk there too.
.

 

[Fred66]

Recent history of illegal hunting in Cheshire and long history of drag hunting would suggest that the answer to that is yes.

I think they will move on to sabbing shooting live birds, though, and they will find plenty of support among ordinary folk there too.
.

I would disagree about them moving on as even drag hunts attract them. However after shooting, will it be fishing, then racing, abbatoirs, possibly eventually horse riding in its entirety. Pet ownership ?

Hunts should be acting within the law but even those that do get harassed. The sabs come out masked, all in black and are extremely intimidating. They should not be allowed to get away with it, if gangs in towns openly went around brandishing whips and chemical sprays verbally abusing people they would be arrested, but apparently it doesn’t matter if it’s in the countryside. Vigilantism is not ok

 

[ycbm]

even drag hunts attract [sabs].

I've seen this said often but never seen any evidence. There was one definite case but it was decades ago and an idiot who had to have the difference explained to them. I've drag hunted a lot with 3 drag packs and 1 bloodhound and never seen a sab. I've seen other people say the same.

Many in the hunting fraternity seem desperate to believe that opposition to hunting is a class issue or a town vs. country issue because that squares it in their heads with continuing to attempt to get the ban (which was undoubtedly a political move) reversed.

It isn't.
.

 

[ycbm]

Hunts should be acting within the law but even those that do get harassed

I completely agree that neither sabs nor hunts should be acting illegally. But legal hunts really don't help themselves. We are going round and round in circles now, but if hunts want sabs to believe that they don't intend to hunt fox, why do they continue to use fox scent to lay trails?

Can't they see the conflict between what they are saying and what they are doing?

"We have no intention of chasing foxes."

"So why are you training your hounds to chase their scent? ".
.

 

[palo1]

I've seen this said often but never seen any evidence. There was one definite case but it was decades ago and an idiot who had to have the difference explained to them. I've drag hunted a lot with 3 drag packs and 1 bloodhound and never seen a sab. I've seen other people say the same.

Many in the hunting fraternity seem desperate to believe that opposition to hunting is a class issue or a town vs. country issue because that squares it in their heads with continuing to attempt to get the ban (which was undoubtedly a political move) reversed.

It isn't.
.

Well I have posted footage and information about sabbing drag hunts; this report is an example :https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/01/hang-on-why-are-hunt-saboteurs-targeting-drag-hunts-7111818/

Only recently I posted an anti hunt campaign poster showing bloodhounds. I can try to find it later.

 

[Fred66]

I've seen this said often but never seen any evidence. There was one definite case but it was decades ago and an idiot who had to have the difference explained to them. I've drag hunted a lot with 3 drag packs and 1 bloodhound and never seen a sab. I've seen other people say the same.

Many in the hunting fraternity seem desperate to believe that opposition to hunting is a class issue or a town vs. country issue because that squares it in their heads with continuing to attempt to get the ban (which was undoubtedly a political move) reversed.

It isn't.
.

Also I wasn’t making it Town v Country, per se.

Generally speaking I would say there are more people in towns/cities that don’t know a huge amount about it and might therefore form an opinion without knowledge than there are in the Countryside. Having knowledge doesn’t mean that they would be pro although possibly are more likely to have seen firsthand the destruction foxes cause, however that is largely a mute point as the hunts should not be hunting fox anyway.

There is also an element of it when many of the Sabs groups style themselves Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, etc so basically large cities.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The only way for hunting to save itself now is to declare that it will move completely away from using fox scent to lay trails.

The supposedly legal trail hunts need to lead the way on this.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I've seen this said often but never seen any evidence. There was one definite case but it was decades ago and an idiot who had to have the difference explained to them. I've drag hunted a lot with 3 drag packs and 1 bloodhound and never seen a sab. I've seen other people say the same.


.

I've responded to you on this previously, more than once, with several sabbed meets for our local drag hunt - there have been more in the last 3 years since I posted a reply to you on this.............

 

[Fred66]

I completely agree that neither sabs nor hunts should be acting illegally. But legal hunts really don't help themselves. We are going round and round in circles now, but if hunts want sabs to believe that they don't intend to hunt fox, why do they continue to use fox scent to lay trails?

Can't they see the conflict between what they are saying and what they are doing?

"We have no intention of chasing foxes."

"So why are you training your hounds to chase their scent? ".
.

At what point in this country did you have to prove that you were innocent to be entitled to be free of being intimidated by people who have travelled miles to harass you on your own property?

 

[ycbm]

Also I wasn’t making it Town v Country, per se.

I very carefully avoided saying "you".
.

 

[ycbm]

At what point in this country did you have to prove that you were innocent to be entitled to be free of being intimidated by people who have travelled miles to harass you on your own property?

When it makes sense, and continuing to do what you are doing makes no sense.

Why DO trail hunts use fox scent?
.

 

[ycbm]

I've responded to you on this previously, more than once, with several sabbed meets for our local drag hunt - there have been more in the last 3 years since I posted a reply to you on this.............

Apologies I forgot your response. I suspect that you are suffering this because illegal fox hunting continues in your area. Remind me please, have people tried to educate the group sabbing you as to the differenceof a drag hunt?


.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Apologies I forgot your response. Remind me please, have people tried to educate the group sabbing you?
.

Oh yes...... water on deaf ears unfortunately.

 

[palo1]

I completely agree that neither sabs nor hunts should be acting illegally. But legal hunts really don't help themselves. We are going round and round in circles now, but if hunts want sabs to believe that they don't intend to hunt fox, why do they continue to use fox scent to lay trails?

Can't they see the conflict between what they are saying and what they are doing?

"We have no intention of chasing foxes."

"So why are you training your hounds to chase their scent? ".
.

Ok. Back in the day pre-ban hounds hunted foxes on their natural scent; exuded from scent glands which give a fox it's natural foxy smell which is present all over it's body but at times stronger than others. Foxes were never hunted by their wee!! Foxes are not like mice in that they pee all the time. With a natural fox smell the scent can be all over the place - high up and drifting or tight to the ground and clear to the line of the fox.

When fox hunting was legal scent was an extraordinarily complex thing - affected by a huge range of things and NEVER predictable. Conditions could be perfect and a fox could be virtually sitting within 10 yards of hounds and if they didn't see him they still might miss the scent. A fox's natural scent is not 'dragged' or particularly regular - it is very hit and miss and foxes do a great many things naturally to cover their scent when needed - their ability to 'outfox' a predator is of course, legendary across the world where foxes live.

Fox urine has the quality of mimicking aspects of natural fox scent but as it is neither fresh nor the same as a natural glandular scent of a live fox it isn't especially mistakeable for live fox scent. Wee is not the same as glandular exudate; it has different qualities in terms of 'holding' and lifting on the breeze, or other weather conditions. It is also laid, by necessity on the ground, even though weather conditions will still allow the scent to be 'lifted' on the breeze, on different crops, plants, surfaces etc. But it is suitably complex and difficult for hounds to pick up and follow. That is one reason why many people find trail hunting 'boring' with lots of standing around; fox urine is likely to dissipate for one thing and hounds have to work at picking it up. It is not the same as the scent of a live fox.

I am sure there are experts on fox's glands and the pre-ban knowledge of scent but as they are not here I am doing my best to explain! Other possible scents that could be used have nothing like the complexity or variability of fox wee, which in it's turn is a different thing to the original natural live fox scent. Trail hunters value the ability of the fox hound to pick up and follow an extraordinarily difficult scent trail and to communicate that to the hunting team with their quite extraordinary voice. Fox hounds are the world leaders in scent complexity and across the world there is interest in those abilities with hunting commmunities in the most obscure places fascinated by that. I know that this may cause a howl of outrage but the English Fox hound (and including it's Welsh lines, harriers etc) with it's stamina, athleticism, independence, voice and co-operative skills and scenting ability is like no other domestic dog. It is vital to hunting people to keep that alive and maintain those things.

Other breeds of dog have amazing scenting abilities too but there are really no domestic dogs that hunt/track as a team over the same distances and terrain with the very difficult and demanding conditions that fox wee provides. It may be a stretch but possibly the only canines that rival parts of that ability would be African Hunting Dogs and Wolves both of which hunt co-operatively but not almost entirely by scent and voice.

ETA I do not intend to suggest in any way that hounds are superior to wild canines - hounds are different but uniquely talented and capable in their own ways. Personally I would far rather my chances of surviving hounds hunting me (even if they were actually aggressive which the vast majority are not) than wolves or African Wild Dogs. Hounds bring a different set of talents to hunting though.

 

[ycbm]

Ok. Back in the day pre-ban hounds hunted foxes on their natural scent; exuded from scent glands which give a fox it's natural foxy smell which is present all over it's body but at times stronger than others. Foxes were never hunted by their wee!! Foxes are not like mice in that they pee all the time. With a natural fox smell the scent can be all over the place - high up and drifting or tight to the ground and clear to the line of the fox.

When fox hunting was legal scent was an extraordinarily complex thing - affected by a huge range of things and NEVER predictable. Conditions could be perfect and a fox could be virtually sitting within 10 yards of hounds and if they didn't see him they still might miss the scent. A fox's natural scent is not 'dragged' or particularly regular - it is very hit and miss and foxes do a great many things naturally to cover their scent when needed - their ability to 'outfox' a predator is of course, legendary across the world where foxes live.

Fox urine has the quality of mimicking aspects of natural fox scent but as it is neither fresh nor the same as a natural glandular scent of a live fox it isn't especially mistakeable for live fox scent. Wee is not the same as glandular exudate; it has different qualities in terms of 'holding' and lifting on the breeze, or other weather conditions. It is also laid, by necessity on the ground, even though weather conditions will still allow the scent to be 'lifted' on the breeze, on different crops, plants, surfaces etc. But it is suitably complex and difficult for hounds to pick up and follow. That is one reason why many people find trail hunting 'boring' with lots of standing around; fox urine is likely to dissipate for one thing and hounds have to work at picking it up. It is not the same as the scent of a live fox.

I am sure there are experts on fox's glands and the pre-ban knowledge of scent but as they are not here I am doing my best to explain! Other possible scents that could be used have nothing like the complexity or variability of fox wee, which in it's turn is a different thing to the original natural live fox scent. Trail hunters value the ability of the fox hound to pick up and follow an extraordinarily difficult scent trail and to communicate that to the hunting team with their quite extraordinary voice. Fox hounds are the world leaders in scent complexity and across the world there is interest in those abilities with hunting commmunities in the most obscure places fascinated by that. I know that this may cause a howl of outrage but the English Fox hound (and including it's Welsh lines, harriers etc) with it's stamina, athleticism, independence, voice and co-operative skills and scenting ability is like no other domestic dog. It is vital to hunting people to keep that alive and maintain those things.

Other breeds of dog have amazing scenting abilities too but there are really no domestic dogs that hunt/track as a team over the same distances and terrain with the very difficult and demanding conditions that fox wee provides. It may be a stretch but possibly the only canines that rival parts of that ability would be African Hunting Dogs and Wolves both of which hunt co-operatively but not almost entirely by scent and voice.

ETA I do not intend to suggest in any way that hounds are superior to wild canines - hounds are different but uniquely talented and capable in their own ways. Personally I would far rather my chances of surviving hounds hunting me (even if they were actually aggressive which the vast majority are not) than wolves or African Wild Dogs. Hounds bring a different set of talents to hunting though.

To summarise, if i have understood, trail hunting continues to use fox scent so that hounds will keep their skill in be able to follow fox scent as a pack, which is desired because it is a unique ability among domesticated dogs.

I get it.

I'm not sure how it squares with the fact that trails are supposed to be being laid that minimise the risk of hunting fox. And there's a huge conflict between continuing to use fox scent and convincing people, sabs not least, that there is a genuine intention not to hunt fox.

There's no solution to this conundrum is there?
.

 

[palo1]

To summarise, if i have understood, trail hunting continues to use fox scent so that hounds will keep their skill in be able to follow fox scent as a pack, which is desired because it is a unique ability among domesticated dogs.

I get it.

I'm not sure how it squares with the fact that trails are supposed to be being laid that minimise the risk of hunting fox. And there's a huge conflict between continuing to use fox scent and convincing people, sabs not least, that there is a genuine intention not to hunt fox.

There's no solution to this conundrum is there?
.

This 'mitigation' of using fox scent is one of the headaches of the Hunting Act as are the exemptions which actively, legally allow for the killing of foxes; it really is an appalling piece of legislation. There really was not enough consensus to push for a complete removal of fox/natural scent - and of course the act didn't/couldn't even do the statutory 2 rounds of parliament such was it's fragility. Using fox scent is legal. There are so many other precedents in law that make putting pressure on hunts to change that very very difficult and antis/sabs do not want to see any further tampering of the law; they want an outright ban and hounds gone for good. Antis feel that if hounds are 'exercising' then they will be hunting. Getting rid of hounds is utterly unthinkable for hunters and probably would cause some degree of public consternation which may not be helpful for the antis either.

I would not be surprised to find that in the event of some further ban, fox hound breeding and exercising or hunting went underground and that would have appalling welfare implications in a number of ways. There are unregistered packs that are virtually unknown to any authority as it is. But how do you prevent someone from owning a number of dogs of the same breed and exercising them on land where they have permission to do so?

I am not sure, after Blair's very public regrets about the act and many other commentators dismay over it's legitimacy (in parliamentary terms) and workability, that any government in the current setting with Covid and Climate crisis as well as other very pressing social issues would want to take on the whole ghastly mess. Every political party has a statement and policy regarding the Hunting Act but even when the tories made it a manifesto issue, they were not prepared to bring that to Parliament. I am not sure anyone knows how to unravel this or find any unity.

The Bonomy Review in 2016 probably didn't help as it's conclusions strengthened the hopes of some hunters that a return to limited fox hunting may be possible. That hope has also been nurtured by elements of the Welsh farmers union who have long requested exemptions to the law on Welsh hills. There are good reasons for those requests and exemptions in my opinion. The Burns report was never sufficient basis or with even remotely compelling evidence on which to bring in the stupid act and set one side against another far more than was the case pre-ban. It is vile.

I get all the arguments for drag hunting and blood hounding and I have done both and enjoyed them; they are different and lots of people love that difference. Those have none of the baggage of trail hunting but I have no idea how on earth you 'remove' trail hunting cleanly. It would require extreme measures and have unintended and incidental consequences that would be extremely unpalatable to many more people than either support or oppose trail hunting.

 

[palo1]

To summarise, if i have understood, trail hunting continues to use fox scent so that hounds will keep their skill in be able to follow fox scent as a pack, which is desired because it is a unique ability among domesticated dogs.

I get it.

I'm not sure how it squares with the fact that trails are supposed to be being laid that minimise the risk of hunting fox. And there's a huge conflict between continuing to use fox scent and convincing people, sabs not least, that there is a genuine intention not to hunt fox.

There's no solution to this conundrum is there?
.

The 'thing' about fox scent is not just to do with foxes as vermin which was the purpose of hunting them originally but the fact that fox scent has uniquely 'difficult' qualities so fox hounds have become iconic to hunters and represent a similar level of uniqueness as an English Thoroughbred, an Arabian horse, an Akhal teke or Mongolian pony. I think unless you have been involved in hunting, it would be difficult to completely explain the sense of pride, love and respect for hounds because of this tbh.

 

[paddy555]

e.

Fox urine has the quality of mimicking aspects of natural fox scent but as it is neither fresh nor the same as a natural glandular scent of a live fox it isn't especially mistakeable for live fox scent. Wee is not the same as glandular exudate; it has different qualities in terms of 'holding' and lifting on the breeze, or other weather conditions. It is also laid, by necessity on the ground, even though weather conditions will still allow the scent to be 'lifted' on the breeze, on different crops, plants, surfaces etc. But it is suitably complex and difficult for hounds to pick up and follow. That is one reason why many people find trail hunting 'boring' with lots of standing around; fox urine is likely to dissipate for one thing and hounds have to work at picking it up. It is not the same as the scent of a live fox.

if I am getting this correctly the trail is laid with fox wee. May be a silly question but how do they get this and how do they get enough to lay a long trail?

ETA please don't laugh at this Palo, I am just curious.

 

[Clodagh]

if I am getting this correctly the trail is laid with fox wee. May be a silly question but how do they get this and how do they get enough to lay a long trail?

ETA please don't laugh at this Palo, I am just curious.

I think it’s imported from America, and the production, I imagine, is disgusting. It was BITD anyway, but it may have improved. I think the people I used to hunt with used some decomposition process rather than urine. I don’t actually know.

 

[palo1]

if I am getting this correctly the trail is laid with fox wee. May be a silly question but how do they get this and how do they get enough to lay a long trail?

ETA please don't laugh at this Palo, I am just curious.

I don't know exactly where our source comes from (I have never asked for the particular website) - you can buy fox wee on the internet very easily - gardeners use it a lot. Here for example: https://predatorpeestore.com/fox-scent-uk.htm - that company sells to trail hunts though I am cringing on reading their blurb

You can get it on Amazon in fact too: here - https://www.amazon.co.uk/100-Real-Fox-Urine-16/dp/B008MZ6OUU

or here: https://www.u-buy.co.uk/product/7BN...-protect-your-garden-with-real-predator-urine

The fact that companies specialising in providing fox pee to hunts in the UK exist should provide some sense of it being a genuine 'thing'.

I don't know how so much fox pee is acquired - that is something that is somewhat bothering (though again legal). Forgive me for saying that as I have seen a number of fox sanctuaries that hold up to 50 foxes in one enclosure I have wondered more than once if that is how some sanctuaries add to their much needed funds. But how the hell you collect fox wee I don't know...

It is legally identified as 'ethical' but how you trace that I don't know. Thank goodness my terrier can legally and naturally source and follow rat's piss in order to deal with that problem.

 

[paddy555]

I think it’s imported from America, and the production, I imagine, is disgusting. It was BITD anyway, but it may have improved. I think the people I used to hunt with used some decomposition process rather than urine. I don’t actually know.

how do the Americans get it? ie is it like pregnant mare's urine. Not querying if it is genuine just how it is obtained from the actual fox.

 

[Clodagh]

how do the Americans get it? ie is it like pregnant mare's urine. Not querying if it is genuine just how it is obtained from the actual fox.

I’ve always assumed it’s farmed. Although presumably foxes don’t need to give birth, like a slurry pit perhaps and they live on a shiny floor and it trickles… I hope they think they are doing it for the greater good tbh they’d probably rather live free and risk the miniscule chance of being hunted. But that’s another topic!

 

[palo1]

I’ve always assumed it’s farmed. Although presumably foxes don’t need to give birth, like a slurry pit perhaps and they live on a shiny floor and it trickles… I hope they think they are doing it for the greater good tbh they’d probably rather live free and risk the miniscule chance of being hunted. But that’s another topic!

Quite. Fox wee is used a lot for gardening and in some conservation activities - trail hunting is just another customer but I would feel easier about foxes being able to pee where they wanted and take their chances but the law is an ass. It is another way I suppose that the Hunting Act did nothing to help fox welfare but it is more of an 'incidental' rather than direct cost to foxes iyswim.

 

[Sandstone1]

In what respect is this a response to my post?

I have not called people crazy or weirdos, nor have I referred to them as lazy, smelly or unemployed

Hunting foxes with hounds and not following any of the exemptions is illegal and is subject to prosecution, trail hunting is not.

People going out armed with whips, chemical sprays, horns and trespassing on private land are committing aggravated trespass and are subject to prosecution.

Two wrongs never make a right, and hopefully the hunts that were continuing to flout the law will stop. Could I ask whether the same can be said for the sabs ?

I didnt say that you had called people crazy or weirdos. Pro hunters often use all those terms about sabs though. You said some of them smoke and that makes them hypocrites because of testing on animals! So with that line of thinking no one should protest about anything.

 

[paddy555]

Quite. Fox wee is used a lot for gardening and in some conservation activities - trail hunting is just another customer but I would feel easier about foxes being able to pee where they wanted and take their chances but the law is an ass. It is another way I suppose that the Hunting Act did nothing to help fox welfare but it is more of an 'incidental' rather than direct cost to foxes iyswim.

of course we could just have stopped hunting foxes and found something else to use as trail scent.