So were the posters who backed Jamie Gray "Trolls" ?

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It is interesting that the Crown Prosecution Service aren't prosecuting this case (hence the RSPCA are) as this indicates the defence info the CPS reviewed means they don't think the case is in the public interest, or that there is not enough evidence to secure a conviction.


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Actually, it doesn't. The RSPCA - along with the ILPH and other equine charities - were first on the scene. They gathered the evidence - and the RSPCA led the prosecution. This is pretty normal - the equine welfare organisations have experience and expertise in animal cruelty cases that the CPS doesn't have.

If the police had been first on the scene and had gathered the evidence, then almost certainly the CPS would have led the prosecution.

And - for the record - the legal definition of 'cruelty' is 'causing unnecessary suffering'.
 
Personally I do not agree with the verdict yesterday.

I have concluded that I do not believe that a dealer should be expected to provide the same degree of level of care for a horse that a private owner would provide who just owns the one horse.

What I am trying to say is that dealers will have many horses in their yard at one time and of course they will care for the horses (give the horse their 5 freedoms) to the best of their ability and time they have each day. But it is unrealistic to expect a dealer to provide the one to one care a private horse owner with one horse can provide. For example a dealer with large numbers of horses (100) could not possibly have all their horses in their yard on immaculatley clean beds all the time etc.

Another point I would like to note is that the RSPCA never seem to have anything to say to farmers about their livestock. I have increasingly noticed cattle and sheep that look very thin, are chronically lame, have serious injuires. They are used for breeding calf after calf to maintain milking ability, have the calf taken away at days old. However nothing is ever said to farmers probably because no one cares about cattle or sheep as they are just meat/milk producers.
It seems to me that horses are almost 'sacrid' in this country.
 
Sorry My Jack, been at Badminton today.

Questions for you as you were at the court.

How many horses were confiscated Jan 4th?

How many altogether (over the few days) and on who's jurisdiction?

How many horses were truthfully found dead?

Who did the post mortems and what were the results?

Of those removed how many were shown to be emaciated?

Of those described as emaciated, how long had he owned them? Did they produce evidence to show how long he had owned the "emaciated" animals?

How many were in a satisfactory condition?

How many were lame?

How many were PTS and on what grounds? Again, on whose jurisdiction?

Was JG allowed his own vet to be present when the RSPCA raided? Was a second opinion allowed before the horses were PTS?

What time did the RSPCA raid Spindles farm? If my memory serves me right it was 6 am?

And am I right in thinking they had no hay at 6am or was it inadequate hay?

And half filled troughs of water or no water? Where they had no water, were there containers that could have had water in the night before?

Did Jamie Gray's defence produce evidence that showed he had arranged disposal of the carcasses?


Sorry! Loads of questions! I have more but this will do for now! I have tried to ask questions that are factual.

If you can answer please do!
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I cant be doing with all this cloak and dagger stuff!
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Dozzie
 
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But it is unrealistic to expect a dealer to provide the one to one care a private horse owner with one horse can provide. For example a dealer with large numbers of horses (100) could not possibly have all their horses in their yard on immaculatley clean beds all the time etc.

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Interesting theory - have you ever heard of the concept of businesses employing staff? Thereby enabling the owner of the dealing business to ensure that they're horses needs were met adequately.......
 
Of course I acknowledge the fact of employing people. However most dealers do not have the horses in individual stables they are normally in barns. Their is no way a barn which has a large number of horses in can be kept as clean as a stable with one horse. When you get a load of youngstock in a space together within a couple of hours the bedding will be a mess. It would be unrealistic to clear out the bedding in a large barn every couple of hours.
 
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Of course I acknowledge the fact of employing people. However most dealers do not have the horses in individual stables they are normally in barns. Their is no way a barn which has a large number of horses in can be kept as clean as a stable with one horse. When you get a load of youngstock in a space together within a couple of hours the bedding will be a mess. It would be unrealistic to clear out the bedding in a large barn every couple of hours.

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Ah, thanks for point that out - I simply had no idea.

I can only imagine that your experience of dealers is somewhat different to mine. As is the management of youngstock.
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Don't get dragged in ES !!! It is not worth it,MJ/Patty just can't accept that the scum bags were found guilty,grasping in thin air to wind people up AGAIN ...MJ/Patty was not in court anymore than i was, its all cr@p,it never knew anything and i can't believe that you all are getting dragged into its games again,ignore,don't feed and hopefully it will go away ....

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Actually PW, I was in court throughout. I heard every shred of evidence. And saw the prosecution witnesses torn to ribbons by the defense team.

The only thing that I cant grasp is the fact that even with the enormity of irrafutable documented expert veterinary evidence produced by the defense, and even some of the prosecution eye witnesses testimonies gave support to the defense, and the contradictions and inconsistancies in the prosecution case....that still the british authorities could pass a verdict it did yesturday.

Peter Green, the expert vet for the prosecution has never examined or even physically seen the animals taken from spindles farm - What a joke!!

However, John Parker went to all the different holding places and examined each and every animal personally and body scored them.
 
You do not need to be sarcastic with me. So you would happily clear out barns every couple of hours, i dont think so somehow. And clearly you and I have seen different dealers operating differently, everyone has their own ways of doing things depending on a time/money/space dependance.
 
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I may not live in the UK, but I have followed the case and the court case via the interent and newspapers, and I have to say, I am absolutely disgusted.
Anyone that can deny the evidence from the photographs that were released, such as those from the farm, and those of animals who were rescued, needs to have their health assesed. Would you like a direct email address to my future sister in law, who works for the Horse Trust, and has worked with some of the rescued horses? Feel free, some of the things I have been told by her have made me physically sick.
Horses who were to weak to stand, could barely hold their own heads up, and would defecate in terror when people approached them? How do you explain these things away? Did the RSPCA starve these horses themselves to get the Grays sent to prison?
With carefull treatment - worming, dentistry, farriers - and nourishing food, as well as CARING, gentle handling, some of these animals have flourished, and are now confident and carefree animals that they should have been allowed to be.

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Sorry but I wouldnt trust a single word from anyone working at the horse trust if my life depended on it - Horse trust employee were torn to ribbons in court and shown to be lying.


Sorry, but I was in court and witnessed both sides of the case.
 
Goodness, I have seen lots of horses barned and they are never kept in the conditions seen at Spindles farm.

If you are suggesting that horses normally turn a base into pure excrement in a matter of hours, then I expect there are far too many horses in a small space with inadequate bedding.
 
I have also seen horses kept in herds in barns in the winter. I am sure I read somewhere that horses like being in herds. It is us humans who like to keep them on their own in a stable or paddock.
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And clearly you and I have seen different dealers operating differently, everyone has their own ways of doing things depending on a time/money/space dependance.

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Anyone keeping any kind of stock has a responsibility to look after them to a basic standard. That standard of care must at the very least ensure that they have adequate food, water, freedom of movement, adequate shelter, and a clean environment in which to live.

If you don't think that someone operating any kind of business with more than one animal involved needs to meet that duty of care - then I'm afraid you are no better than the people who were found guilty of neglect and cruelty yesterday.

I can only assume that you have only ever been exposed to the sorts of people who are not prepared to meet these needs. And have absolutely no knowledge of the types of business who do run their operations properly. These include horse dealers, competition yards, studs, racing stables, riding stables. As well as those keeping and farming livestock. Some of these may have many, animals on their premises - all kept impeccably.

Your post makes very, very sad reading........
 
How many of the seized animals have died of their pre-exisitng conditions since they were taken into custody/care? Of these, how many died suddenly and had their badly decomposed carcases left in situ for all to see, and how many animals have been promptly and humanely destroyed to end their suffering?

I'm guessing there have been a few which failed to respond to treatment and am quite prepared to believe some of these might well have died or gone terminally downhill in a very short space of time. I am absolutely certain the carcases would have been promptly removed and any suffering horses just as promptly had their suffering alliviated or ended if necessary.

There is no need for inhumanity towards animals and as long as the welfare code is adhered to, there should never be scenarios as were witnessed at Spindles Farm. If you can't physically manage to do this, you don't have animals. No excuses. Sorry.
 
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I may not live in the UK, but I have followed the case and the court case via the interent and newspapers, and I have to say, I am absolutely disgusted.
Anyone that can deny the evidence from the photographs that were released, such as those from the farm, and those of animals who were rescued, needs to have their health assesed. Would you like a direct email address to my future sister in law, who works for the Horse Trust, and has worked with some of the rescued horses? Feel free, some of the things I have been told by her have made me physically sick.
Horses who were to weak to stand, could barely hold their own heads up, and would defecate in terror when people approached them? How do you explain these things away? Did the RSPCA starve these horses themselves to get the Grays sent to prison?
With carefull treatment - worming, dentistry, farriers - and nourishing food, as well as CARING, gentle handling, some of these animals have flourished, and are now confident and carefree animals that they should have been allowed to be.

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Sorry but I wouldnt trust a single word from anyone working at the horse trust if my life depended on it - Horse trust employee were torn to ribbons in court and shown to be lying.


Sorry, but I was in court and witnessed both sides of the case.

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now see that really pisses me off.

myself and many others saw the horses and donkeys at the horse trust and there was no excuse for there conditon.

MJ i see you refured to the grays dead horses as pets again.
what a load of rubbish your either a trader or your not..

oh no the poor pony died.. i know lets drag it out the way by a car and cliam it to be a pet.. FFS get real woman.
 
...that still the british authorities could pass a verdict it did yesturday.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't this a trial? Therefore it wasn't the 'authorities' that found them guilty but a jury of 12 British citizens

The same 12 citizens that have sat through the whole trial and heard the same evidence that you did patty but had a totally different idea of what cruelty is
 
I don't care who Myjack or Patty is, it is clear from the video that the horses were kept in dreadful conditions. There is no excuse for the state of the animals, their surroundings or the fact that rotting carcasses were found. I hope they have the book thrown at them and that they are never allowed to be responsible for another animal ever again. The trial has been conducted in the presence of a jury who have heard all of the evidence presented and their verdict stands.
 
what a load of nonsense about dealers !!! i occasionally have a few horses for sale (albeit on a very small scale!!) and i care for every one as my own because they are !! they are cared for to the best of my ability as who is going to buy my horses unless they are in prime condition??? i work as well as looking after my horses but still have time to keep there beds immaculate if i could not they i would not have the horses!! horses are not "sacred" (insidently horseygirl 98 you spelt that incorrectly
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) they are just treated with respect. We are a devolved western country with the knowledge and education to keep our animals in the best possible condition as we can which i believe we should, anyone who does not provide this for there animals should face prosicution and IMO JG did not and i applore any one who can support him due to the wealth of evidence against him.
just my thoughts
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Horseygirl28 - reading back on some of your posts I can't help but wonder if you are actually a dealer yourself? And perhaps as with Mr Gray - struggle with numbers and care? It would certainly be an explanation to your attitude....
 
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Did the dead horses look healthy in those photographs?

And what a well reasoned argument against the valid points raised in court and reported by the times...I AM CONVINCED....oh, no, wait...that's not true.
You haven't actually addressed any of those points, just rambled on about some photographs.

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You are joking??

What dead anything looks healthy?

What points are you banging on about?
 
patty- when one is asked a question it is common courtesy to give a direct answer rather than make "smart a***" comments to skirts around them
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just some tips to help you in your way through life
 
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Seeing all your posts are about the Grays, I think that speaks for itself! TROLL

Do you really think the Grays were right in their treatment of those poor horses? and I think you would answer yes to that one as you just want to cause an argument on here.

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Was there any evidence presented before the court that showed the Grays are guilty of what they have been accused of? If so then I must have missed it - so please enlighten me.

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So when you was here before and other members wanted to know things that you were not able to answer as the judgement had not been made.....do you not remember what these questions were? why not answer them now?

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Fire away.

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The RSPCA will always have the publics support when it comes to such cruelty against animals.

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SUCH cruelty? Please enlighten me of any FACTUAL evidence that was presented to the court that PROVES the Gray family are guilty of animal cruelty?

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I totaly agree with patty u lot dont have a clue what ur on about
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Patty, I'm sorry that you think that Mr Gray has been unfairly represented in the courts. But comming on here and shouting about it is probably not going to help his case. Not one person on here (other than those connected to Mr Gray) think he's anything other than guilty of the things he was found guilty of.

Your efforts are going to be better served by helping his defence lawyers, rather than wasting your time on here. And as he has the right to lodge an appeal, you will have plenty of opportunity to do so.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could be in any doubt that many of these animals have suffered terribly. However, as you give the impression of a personal connection - you presumably know better.

I'm really not sure that there is anything to be gained from debating this any further.

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I was shouted down for not answering questions the last time I was here. The reason for not answering those questions was because the case was still live. I promised many people that I would come back and answer those questions - many of you said I'd run with my tail between my legs if Mr Gray was found guilty. I have kept my promise and have returned after having spent months sitting at the back of Bicester magistrates court listening to every shred of evidence and seeing witness testimonies torn apart at the seams. But hey, having stuck to my promise and returning, it seems most would prefer that I had broken it.

Which of those animals do you believe to have suffered? And in which way?
 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/282145.html
.............................................................................................. Think the video footage does all the talking, without the RSPCA having to open their mouths, no excuses for any animal dead or alive to be left to rot. END OF!

If Mr Gray is innocent perhaps he could do an interview to explain some of his actions........ thats of course if the video footage isn't clear enough.
 
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