So were the posters who backed Jamie Gray "Trolls" ?

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AND is this how you look after ya own???
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Because i believe you feel this is acceptable
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...his son is a complete JACKASS....i saw his attitude when they left the courts
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the whole family deserve to rot in hell for what they have done!

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The hogwash in the media is not acceptable.
 
Wasn’t it funny how those two blundering vet expert witnesses acting for the defence have succeeded in making matters much worse for JG, as it turned out they have inadvertently helped the RSPCA with their clients prosecution. I think they must be a little past their prime!
 
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Thank you for answering all my questions MJ.

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You're welcome.

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However, I dont feel you have truly and thoroughly explained who you are.

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From day one I have been studying this case. I collected information and scrutinized it untill I got to the truth. I have studies the Gray family and the RSPCA. I have been fortunate enough to meet some members of the Gray family. I have studied each member thoroughly. I have traveled up and down the country gathering information - sometimes I have been successful and sometimes not so successful. None of the information I have gathered implies that any of the Gray family are as sick as the media have painted them. I was hoping to recieve some documents within the next couple of days but I was informed at 4:20 today that it isnt going to be possible. When I do receive them I will post them.

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You later go on to say you are not a relation of the grey family, am I correct?

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You are correct.

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In which case I have the following questions:

How do you know James grey?

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I think just about the whole of the country know the Grays by now.


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What relationship do/have you had with the man? I.e. romantic/worked together, other halves knew each other, served him in the pub...?

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None of the above.

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When did you first meet him?

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I cant be sure of the exact date but I do know I didnt manage to get to speak to him. I sat in the back of the court and heard his evidence and it was no different to the information I already had on him and his farm.


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Ditto for the rest of his family.

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At different times. But I got the idea that the women had nothing what so ever to do with the horses. Then I received information which confired this. To be totally honest, it seems that the women dont have a clue about horses. Mrs Gray and Jodie Gray are petrified of horses and that was confirmed in court.



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Thank you.

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You're welcome.
 

Robert Edgar Baskerville – Veterinary surgeon – senior partner Baskerville Hogan
Called by Katie Robinson at Mr. Gray’s request to assist . Arrived at Spindles Farm 6.30pm on 4th January 08. Describes the scene on arrival. Mr. Gray, Police Officers and RSPCA officials. “ Yard, barn .. at Spindles Farm ..3-4 inches deep in equine faeces and slurry…pens 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 & 10 several inches deep in wet bedding, urine, faeces ..no dry areas for animals to lie down….a number of carcasses. .approx 8-10 in varying states of decay…. Understood 90 horses in yard .. more in fields….three horses severely emaciated …within hours of death…other .horses were dirty, underfed..impossible to carry out convention identification…KH1 KH3 euthanised because death imminent and would not respond to treatment… KH2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,16,17,18,18a,19,and 20 considered at risk of death within hours unless removed to obtain urgent attention
Attended Spindles Farm on 5th Jan identified further animals requiring removal.
You would really keep your own horses like this?
 
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paddywhack - you & I are clearly from the same neck of the woods!

For those of us unfortunate to live near to JG, it was BEYOND DOUBT that he is guilty. The whole family are a complete nuscence, with his 16 year old son being the worst.

My friend went to Biscester last week to the courts & heard every word.

I can also confirm that Bob is fit & well - still practising as he was at the yard this morning! Just to quash any rumours that he's retiring / not currently practising.

Will be interesting to see how this progresses, particularly regarding the transportation of horses through Dover.....

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Bob has,i was told today,retired as a partner but still work at the practice.It was talk last summer that he would retire fully,but he is too much of a workaholic
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I live 20-25 minutes away from J.G and i was in Amersham the other day and drove past his farm,hair stands up in the back of my neck.
What comes around goes around is my belief,was told the other day that the Smithies in Iver area want nothing to do with him, rumur has is that his Dad has disowned him and his family.
Nope he has shot himself in foot i think,he keeps dumping his underweight and sick ponies in fields a little bit every where,(Wexham Park,Stoke Poges,Iver and Langley)which has annoyed his own kind of people,since they get the blame for his carelessness and actions !
 
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I did not see anything that could have been an unearthed buried corpse. I did see plenty of rotting corpses.

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There most certainly were unearthed buried animals.

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Sorry, I really do not believe that James Grey arranged for removal of the dead stock within a reasonable time frame.

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It was given in evidence in court and the knacker man wasnt back to work from the christmas holiday.


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I don't see how this is relevant?

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One of the fallen animals was a pet - Mr Gray buried his pets but at that time his machine was broke - he was going to get a piece to fix it when the RSPCA arrived. Sorry but I am trying to give every single detail.

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see the relevance of this either.

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If Mr Gray had anything to hide he wouldnt use the same knaker man as the RSPCA. The knacker man gave evidence in court.

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prior to the RSPCA arriving at the farm, an RSPCA inspector named Claire Ryder stopped by the farm on her way back to her parents home for the christmas holiday. She and Mrs Gray had a general conversation in which she commented on Mrs Grays coat. In her evidence she said all was well at the farm and she saw no dead animals. She also contradicted the RSPCA and media reports about the food, water and bedding situations on the 9th.

On the 21st of December vet Katie Robinson from Bob Baskervilles practice, was in the yard examining animals at Mr Grays request. She used pen 3 to examine each animal. then she issued health certificates for all those animals. She neither saw dead animals.

Mr Gray lost alot of his stock in 2 weeks.

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Another thing I find highly unlikely.

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Please can you pinpoint which part you find highly unlikely? Thank you.

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Robert Edgar Baskerville – Veterinary surgeon – senior partner Baskerville Hogan
Called by Katie Robinson at Mr. Gray’s request to assist . Arrived at Spindles Farm 6.30pm on 4th January 08. Describes the scene on arrival. Mr. Gray, Police Officers and RSPCA officials. “ Yard, barn .. at Spindles Farm ..3-4 inches deep in equine faeces and slurry…pens 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 & 10 several inches deep in wet bedding, urine, faeces ..no dry areas for animals to lie down….a number of carcasses. .approx 8-10 in varying states of decay…. Understood 90 horses in yard .. more in fields….three horses severely emaciated …within hours of death…other .horses were dirty, underfed..impossible to carry out convention identification…KH1 KH3 euthanised because death imminent and would not respond to treatment… KH2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,16,17,18,18a,19,and 20 considered at risk of death within hours unless removed to obtain urgent attention
Attended Spindles Farm on 5th Jan identified further animals requiring removal.
You would really keep your own horses like this?

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Very interesting but sad and sickening at the same time I would say .No wonder J.G's camp are peed off,trying to twist things around, now when the truth is coming out .No more questions or Troll Feeding needed
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1st= sooty ive pm'd you
2nd= patty i did wish you good morning and ill wish you good evening as well
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in reading you post about how you know the gray family i came to the conclusion you became interesting in the case and met them that way??? if so you are telling me you travelled about the country for the good of your health researching this???? well i must say if i ever do anything wrong i want you on my side as your dedication to guilty people is commendable.
and to be fair god loves a trier
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i do still feel you have skirted around your true idenity please tell me pm if you prefer
best wishes
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p.s better than usual eastenders tonight dont you think
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I have some questions I would like to ask Patty about individual animals whose condition I have seen in numerous video's with my own eyes:

The dark bay / black with the no 58 sprayed on



The bay cob with diarrohea no KH15

The fallen grey no 5

The fallen bay by the water trough

For these animals if you can remember from the trial please could you explain how long JG had owned each of these animals for and where he had bought them from - private home / UK auction / abroad / another dealer etc.

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I do not have my notes with me at the moment but I'll get straight back to you.

However, I will tell you what I can remember off the top of my head.

Dark bay went down in another field - Mr Gray was informed and went out to it. He got it to it's feet but still decided take it back to the farm. He gave it an injection, food and water, and placed some kind of hammock/sling under it's belly for caution . I cant remember the proper name for it.


KH15 was brought in from the field. Cant remember much more about that one but again, I will let you know.


Fallen Gray was a mule, even though I have been refering to it as a pony. Sorry for any confusion. Mr Gray was concerned about it so he called Katie Robinson to the farm to examine it... Katie Robinson gave it the all clear. Sadly it went down on the morning of the 9th. Same with KH1, the pony next to the water trough, that pony went down that morning too. KH1 was PTS.

I will get back to you with all the other information you have asked.

There was also a donkey KH22. That donkey was examined by vets and was given the all clear - by the next morning it was dead.

Cyathostomiasis has this effect and has been known to kill it's host within 12/24 without giving any signs that the animal is sick in any way.

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I personally cannot understand as a trader why he would buy animals in such a state, surely the vet bills / feeding costs to put them right would negate any profit to be made?

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Could you understand why as a trader he would buy in healthy animals just to leave them to starve to death as the RSPCA have claimed?

Accoring to the RSPCA they were all emaciated and starving. Seems they just slapped that lable on everyone of the animals - dead or alive. They never came up with a diagnosis for KH15 - just that she was emaciated and starved. Thus, apparently their reason for shooting her dead. She was carrying a foal - they left that foal to suffercate in her belly.

Mr Gray was concerned at the way they were loading his animals into the trailers - something to do with putting shod animsls in with unshod animals. They wouldnt take notice of him so he called DEFRA and put them on the phone They was told that Mr Gray was right to be concerned. They had to unload and reload.

Mr Gray was also very concerned about a pregnent Jenny going in transit as she was about to give birth anytime - that donkey gave birth the following day.
 
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99.999% of people cannot understand why anybody would be so neglectful of their animals as Mr Grey has appeared to, and has now been found guilty of. So I don't have a clue but would hazard a guess at:
1) The operation grew too big
2) Funds were short

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1) The court heard that Mr Gray has always kept a large numbers of animals.

2) Could not have been that short because he purchased some of those animals not long before they were removed.

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But really, who but the man himself knows why there were so many horses that were starving and dead on his property.

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There was not a shred of evidence produced in court that any of those animals were starving or starved.
 
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uploaded photos onto photo bucket but cant post them in here

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And what about all the other animals - where are the photos of them?

The photos you have posted are of young stock. Now how about you tell the board how long Mr Gray had owned them?

As for them having no food....your photos tell us quiet the opposite. And please take note of the straw.

Please dont even bother trying to say that the RSPCA put it all there........they didnt - nor did they even try to claim as such in court when photos were put to each witness and asked about the food and bedding.
 
OMG I can't believe you are still around myjack,and still wittering!!

I think you've kind of missed the point here really,the courts found him guilty,simple as.

Of course you are obviously far better eqipped to make judgment than the entire justice system,and I suppose everyone else is wrong and you are right *insert rolls eyes smilie here*

Having unfortunately spent far more time in courts than I would have wished (not for myself I hasten to add!!),and believe me I have no great love for the police,CPS etc,but I have to say they don't often get it wrong.Occasionally it happens,and of course those are the cases we hear about in the press,but the majority of the time they don't waste their time with cases they don't think will stand up,and the chances of them actually fabricating evidence,and having a huge multi organisational conspiracy going on as you are implying are probably just about non existant TBH,or just downright ludicrous to put it another way!!

Anyway myjack didn't you say when all this first happened and you were ranting,that if the courts found him guilty you would accept that,and eat your words etc,or words to that effect,I'm pretty sure you did??
 
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Cyathostomiasis has this effect and has been known to kill it's host within 12/24 without giving any signs that the animal is sick in any way.



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Oh dear - our little troll knows as little about cyathostomiasis as she does about horse neglect! Cyathostomiasis is a condition - not a parasite - although it is caused by the parasite Cyathostomes - more commonly known as small strongyles. It is a chronic WASTING condition which can certainly be fatal - but not overnight.

And although it can't be picked up with worm counts as the condition is caused by the immature (non egg-laying) parasites, it leads to weight loss, diarrhoea, ventral oedema etc. Intermittent fever, occasional colic, and a normal to ravenous appetite are often seen although as the disease progresses, the animal may become anorectic.

Obviously, a decent worming programme with something like Equest, prevents it!! One would think a dealer with large numbers of horses through his hands WOULD worm all animals on arrival - if he cared two hoots about their welfare, wouldn't one?
 
Sorry,don't always make myself very clear,was more referring to prosecutions generally,and that they don't often happen unless there is at least a better than average chance of winning.

CPS are just who I know more of personally,but point was RSPCA,despite their faults (which like the CPS and others are many I'm sure) don't usually take cases that far if they have no evidence and/or are lying.

Slightly O/T but as an aside,at least it is an example of the animal welfare act being made use of appropriately,hopefully will set a trend and send a message.
 
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Having read your replies patty, which are generally more questions than answers, I have one observation

Your only purpose in being on this forum is not to represent any kind of truth, it is as a member of a legal defence team in the hope of supporting an appeal against conviction - since you canot rely on evidence because the Court have heard that and judged based on it, you are now hoping to provoke somebody into saying something that can be twisted, or publishing a photograph to cast more doubt on.

You cannot defend JG by making vague comments about turncoat vets, or RSPCA politics - you should be very ashamed, as should JG and all his family.

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Oh please mother-hen. The defence team were as follows.

Nigel Weller
Mike fullerton
Richard Cheryal

Expert Vets were.-

John Parker
Maderline Forsyth


Defendants were.

Mr Jamie Gray Senior
Mrs Julie Gray
Jamie Gray Junior
Jodie Gray
Cordeila Gray.

And I am none of the above.

And as much as I try to think - I cannot think of a single reason why anything said on this forum would support an appeal.


Now, as for the personal comment about I should be ashamed. I have NOTHING what so ever to be ashamed about.

And going by what I have seen and heard - neither have the Gray family anything to be ashamed about.

Here are 3 of many who should be ashamed.

Mr Bob Baskerville and Katie Robinson should be ashamed for betraying a client whom they know full well to be a very good and careing horseman - and one who has given them £1000's for their sevices over the past 9 years.

Another one who should be ashamed is Mr Nick White, of the World Horse Welfare. He and Mr Gray know eachother, and he has traded with Mr Gray in the past. He keeps donkeys. On the day of the seizure he kept apologising to Mr Gray. He goes to auctions but I'm not sure he'll be attending too many now after the lies he told in court.
 
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Can I just clarify that I was not defending JG in any way!!
Our 'Oracle MJ/Patty' whatever has told us that JG got them in that state. I was just wondering why he bought them rather than report the seller like 99.999999% of us with morals would have done!

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My post wasn't aimed at you ATG....was just a general comment that I can't believe anyone could or would defend the Grays.
 
Patty - you really are like a broken record - replying to questions with the same old answers or not bothering to answer them at all. You gleefully tell us you will post your "evidence", but you keep on coming up with excuses not to, presumably because you are not in possession of any at all.

How you can defend such a deplorable family is well and truly beyond me. Those poor animals suffered horribly, yet you seem to think they were in wonderful, caring hands.

Additionally, if you are a know-it-all as you like to think you are, then how is it you are such an abysmal speller? My thirteen-year-old nephew has a better grasp of the English language than you! Please invest in a dictionary before posting anything else here.

I sincerely apologize to everyone else for feeding the troll.
 
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uploaded photos onto photo bucket but cant post them in here

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And what about all the other animals - where are the photos of them?

The photos you have posted are of young stock. Now how about you tell the board how long Mr Gray had owned them?

As for them having no food....your photos tell us quiet the opposite. And please take note of the straw.

Please dont even bother trying to say that the RSPCA put it all there........they didnt - nor did they even try to claim as such in court when photos were put to each witness and asked about the food and bedding.

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I thought those photos were taken at the Horse trust or whatever it was that they were being kept at? As the posted stated that if you have ever been there then you will know that those are the types of pens they are kept in.



The only thing I don't get is why would anyone - trader or otherwise - want to have that many horses. Ill or not. That is just an awful lot of horses, and an awful lot of work. I have worked at a stud farm where we maybe had stock of 50 or so at a time, and even spread out over 2 different farms and pasture that was a lot of horses to deal with - thus the youngstock was basically let out in large herds till the age of 3.

I have no opinion on the ruling as I don't think I can make that based on what I read on here and in the media. And anyone that knows me (a few on here do) know I am very picky with horse care.

I also was just thinking/wondering. Someone commented about the horses as stock - compared to cattle or sheep stock. How large does a herd have to be before it is classed the same as cattle/sheep (farming) stock. Is there even a size?
 
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Nope he has shot himself in foot i think,he keeps dumping his underweight and sick ponies in fields a little bit every where,(Wexham Park,Stoke Poges,Iver and Langley)which has annoyed his own kind of people,since they get the blame for his carelessness and actions !

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You sure can tell em PW.

Here's some logical questions for you to chew on.


Why would Jamie Gray buy underweight and sick ponies just to dump them in someone elses field?


Or.


Why would he buy healthy ponies just to leave in his yard to become underweight and sick, and then go dump them?

What could he possibly gain financially by doing any of the above?

A trader is someone who turns his money over with his stock.

There is no money to be made in dead horses. A dead horse is a financial loss to the trader.

Healthy horses are worth more than sick horses - So it would also be in the traders best interest to keep them healthy..


If Jamie Gray ran his business in the way you and the RSPCA are telling people then Jamie Gray would have gone broke years ago.
 
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to stick my unwanted nose in, proofs in the pudding and photos don't lie-i've followed this story, along with thousands of others and the whole affair is sickening!

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So by looking at the pictures you can conclude that the dead animals died of starvation, that they suffered, and Mr Gray knew about the suffering and could have prevented it but didnt?

Because you see, these are some of the accusations brought against him - and you believe the story the RSPCA and media have put behind those photos. So by looking at the pictures you can see they that the accusations are correct?
 
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Sorry Patty can you show us photographic evidence that the carcasses were dug up as to me the coloured particularly looks like it was left to rot where it fell..

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I cant show photographic evidence of them being dug up as no photos were taken of the dig. The RSPCA didnt even admit to digging them up. They said they found the bones just scattered over the farm. But if that were the case then Claire Ryder and Katie Robinson would have seen them when they were at the farm 2 weeks before hand.


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If the RSPCA did dig up buried animals I would like to see them taken to task over it.

the animals I have seen deep littered in barns were on straw

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They are a powerful organization - they can get away with anything.
 
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Patty, do you know how many horses were dug up?

Nothing was mentioned in the press release about horses being dug up!

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I cant be sure but I think it was 9 or 11. The RSPCA didnt admit to digging them up. They said they found the bones scattered over the farm. But like I have just explained to another poster, if that was the case then Claire Ryder and Katie Robinson would have seen them when they were at the farm 2 weeks prior.

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I have also found the answer to my question about why the RSPCA did not use the CPS to prosecute. It is because they dont! It seems to have nothing to do with whether or not it is suitable for the CPS. They choose to bring private prosecutions. The SPCA and the RSPB use the CPS. So the argument that the CPS doesnt understand all the ins and outs of animal cruelty is not the case in the eyes of other animal charities. Indeed it is not the case in the RSPCAs sister organisation the SPCA.

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The RSPCA does all the prosecutions themselves.

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Janet George. There have been several cases where only one animal has been injured or unhealthy, in amongst many healthy ones, which have led to prosecutions by the RSPCA. Vets statements are regularly ignored. The animals are often seized and euthanised immediately.

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The animals which were seized from Mr Gray on the 9th of January were examined by the vet on the 4th, along with the 14 they seized on that day because they were deemed as 'at risk', However, the vet was happy with the remaining animals and didnt believe they needed to be removed. However, Kirsy Hampton obviously thought she knew best and set up the operation to remove them. She was met at the gate of the yard by a member of the Gray family and another woman. Kirsty hampton told that member of the family that she was there to remove the rest of the animals. She denied saying any such thing. Before a vet even entered the yard the remaining animals were being sprayed with numbers to be removed. Since getting the all clear from a vet on the 4th, the animals had not undergone anymore veteinary examinations to say that anything had changed, yet they were removed. The police dont know much, if anything, about the animal welfare act so they believe what the RSPCA tell them. They were told that under the act the police had the authority to take them (mere members of the public), and others who are also just members of the public, onto Mr Grays land without a warrant and seize his animals. They lied.

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Anyone who keeps animals should make themselves aware of their rights in respect of the RSPCA.

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Absolutely! No animal owner is safe.
 
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