...so your competeing in a show jumping class....and you get a refusal..

[Becki1802]

Shoot me down here but:

My horse occasionally props badly towards the fence then jumps it, I have no problem at all hitting her behind my leg to send her forward. She jumps MUCH better because of it but you have to make it clear. Currently I am schooling at home with a long stick as it means I can 'flick' before she props. I think that sometimes giving a horse a 'whack' can be really useful and beneficial. I went XC last week and she propped towards a fence badly, on landing, (I'm not going to gloss) 'whacked' her twice behind my leg. She then jumped a lot better as it becomes crystal clear what is expected of her!

I think I'd agree with rotter that there is a time and a place! I've even been told in lessons before with good instructors when the horse is naughty & stops they get one tap on the bum. I think it is different if the horse is terrified and my horse won't tolerate a stick and it's counter productive. As soon as I feel the horse backing off it is leg and possibly growl & the stick is a last resort. Although I do agree with OP that there is lost of misuse, overkill and punishment when the stop was due to rider error/lack of leg etc etc.

 

[JFTDWS]

Sometimes there is no stride for the horse to jump off without taking the entire fence down, this too, is generally rider error as you should know how many strides there are to the fence, and shoudl ride accordingly - the horse doesn't know - yet again - not the horses fault.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that the horse should know and sort the stride to some extent. Yes the rider shoud see it and be riding for it too, but the horse should be able to sort itself out to a degree - certainly over routine size fences. I am not infallible and I encourage mine to help me out when I screw up - and 9/10 times they do. If I've really screwed up and they stop, I wouldn't reprimand them. However, occasionally my highland will ignore me telling him to take off and put another short stride in, getting far too deep and having to stop. In those cases, yes I will smack him.

and this

I dont see the problem in expecting a horse to help you out over a fence occasionally, there are very few people who get every single jump perfect and horses need to learn to cope with that

I will also smack on the re-approach to a fence even if it was my fault - not as punishment or threat, simply to get him off my leg if he's sitting on it. My whip is there primarily to back up my leg - not to beat my horse up - so that's probably why I'm using it!

 

[Lolo]

Al has been told not to see a stride, but to get and keep a good canter and to then let her horse work out what he wants to do with his striding. He needs to learn what he should be doing, and if Al interferes and tells him and it's wrong, he just blames her and does the same thing the next time. If she gets him the canter he needs then he can work out what he wants. Works very nicely for all concerned

For dropping- would love to see you do that on Reg! He likes a soft and consistent contact that he can rely on for support and guidance. If she dropped him 2 strides before a fence, he'd have the whole lot down and a nervous breakdown! What is it with people and insisting a loose rein is a good one?!

 

[stencilface]

Utter *******s as usual from you. Both my horses like to be 'dropped' as niether are happy being yanked in the gob like the majority of the idiots around these days, Far to may horses are ruined by people who think they can ride, but really balance themselves on the horses mouths and hope for the best.

Lol - do I know you?!

Fabulous!

JFTD, I do think horses should sort themselves out yes - of course, mine certainly has too, and as an honest nice horse more often than not really helps us get out of some dodgy strides.

However, I stand by my statements, most smacks horses get at your average show do not deserve them for the reason given, in fact a good percentage of the time - the riders should get themselves a kick up the behind

 

[Auslander]

I love this. Person canters up to fence, drops horse a stride or two before and horse stops. Person hits horse, and approaches the fence the same again but by luck the horse get over.

They really need to have instructors who pay attention in lessons and don't encourage people to hit their horse as a first option when something stops. I would hazard a guess that most stops are caused by rider error, or if not error exactly, the horse is presented on a duff stride with nowhere to go. Showjumpers should stop at a fence if they are completely off to it and won't make it over, its better they stop than trash the thing.

I agree with much of the above - except for the last sentence. I have been brought up with "under, over or through" as my mantra. A horse that has a go, even when the chips are down, is more honest than a horse who gets it wrong and throws the towel in. Fences can be rebuilt - horses who learn that stopping is an option cannot be so easily fixed

 

[JustKickOn]

Depends on the case of the stop.
If the rider dropped the horse infront of the fence, and the horse refused, I'd sit up, turn away and ride into the fence again, and NOT drop said horse. Would consider giving a tap just as a reminder to the horse.

If the horse slammed on the breaks for ano apparent reason, horse would get a smack, ridden into fence again, possibly with a smack or two to say "Oi, get off my leg and blooming well jump!"

Rode a pony at college that stopped at a fence quite nastily, it got a smack, bucked, got another, bucked and got another smack. One more on the approach to the fence too. Didn't stop for the whole 40 minutes after that.

Depends on each case though.

 

[skint1]

I love this. Person canters up to fence, drops horse a stride or two before and horse stops. Person hits horse, and approaches the fence the same again but by luck the horse get over.

They really need to have instructors who pay attention in lessons and don't encourage people to hit their horse as a first option when something stops. I would hazard a guess that most stops are caused by rider error, or if not error exactly, the horse is presented on a duff stride with nowhere to go. Showjumpers should stop at a fence if they are completely off to it and won't make it over, its better they stop than trash the thing.

This is so true. My daughter was lucky with her pony and her 1st horse because they never refused,(well the horse was mad nappy but if you could actually get her into the ring and focused on a fence, she would jump it no problem) They seemed to do better when left to sort themselves out, even though both were young, so she got in the habit of staying out of their face and not really keeping up a contact in the approach to a fence

Now her current horse is a gem in so many ways but if you don't hold a contact with him all the way he will sometimes put in a dirty stop, but would generally jump it second time round. It wasn't til she had a jump lesson with her old boss who explained to her where she was going wrong by dropping him a couple of strides out, and the change was immediate, he almost never refuses now, and it was such a small change to make, just a light, consistent contact and he will have a go!

 

[JFTDWS]

However, I stand by my statements, most smacks horses get at your average show do not deserve them for the reason given, in fact a good percentage of the time - the riders should get themselves a kick up the behind

As a general rule, I do agree with this. Many riders, including myself, often need the sharp application of a foot to their posterior. I don't like the assumption made on this thread by some posters that all riders who give their horses a smack or a boot for stopping are cruel, heartless, don't respect their horses etc. (Not directed at you, SF)

I respect mine too much to allow him to fanny about, especially xc - it's one thing if you're used to jumping forward horses, but some are just more backwards and need a bit of telling. Yes I could never jump again, but wouldn't that be an over-reaction to a minor problem?

 

[stencilface]

I agree with much of the above - except for the last sentence. I have been brought up with "under, over or through" as my mantra. A horse that has a go, even when the chips are down, is more honest than a horse who gets it wrong and throws the towel in. Fences can be rebuilt - horses who learn that stopping is an option cannot be so easily fixed

As a general rule, yes thats good - but I think pro showjumpers (which I am far from! ) do prefer horses to be careful rather than just going whatever the stride. I think thats the difference between SJers and eventers though, eventers HAVE to go, whereas for showjumping its a bit different. I'm probably not articulating myself particularly well though, sorry, I blame the wine

 

[ClassicG&T]

If he is refusing cos hes not happy and is unsettled by the jump then ill jump another jump and then retire.
If he is being a sod and refuses he will get more leg. If he continues to refuse he will get one smack on shoulder and that normally does the trick.

hate seeing people attempt a jump 7 times when the horse is sweating buckets and just isnt settled and the riders has blown up and is getting too slap happy with the whip and carried away with the spurs.

 

[Kokopelli]

I got eliminated last weekend (numpty rider into a 1.10m double) I patted him popped a smaller fence then walked out patting and talking to him.

Shortly afterwards people were coming up to me and saying how refreshing it was seeing someone treat their horse that way after an elimination. This really made me sad as it should be the norm, especially when it's rider error and 99% of the time it is.

 

[Kat]

I'm with dafthoss and jftd, if a horse stops then using your whip is not a crime. A horse shouldn't stop at normal heights even if the stride is duff or the rider drops the contact, it should be honest enough to continue. If a horse is stopping despite being ridden firmly and correctly then (barring physical issues) it is being naughty and needs to be corrected. I'm not advocating beating your horse but a firm smack to send it on isn't beating it. Retiring without correcting is just teaching your horse that a refusal means he goes back to his haynet!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Far from thinking people are being cruel and heartless here. Trust me I know when to hit one and can so effectively. Look at my background, I know how to use a whip which is why I very rarely reach for one. I do not tolerate bad behavoir under saddle. I'm old now and like nice rides. I just think more often than not people get a little flustered at a stop in the ring and don't want to be seen as incompetent so the rule is always to smack. That's how we've been taught.

I also expect my horse to try and to take things on from awkward spots. They have to think for themselves.

Terri

 

[JustKickOn]

I got eliminated last weekend (numpty rider into a 1.10m double) I patted him popped a smaller fence then walked out patting and talking to him.

Shortly afterwards people were coming up to me and saying how refreshing it was seeing someone treat their horse that way after an elimination. This really made me sad as it should be the norm, especially when it's rider error and 99% of the time it is.

May I ask, if your horse had been the one farting around into the double, would he have got a reminder from you?
Even if it is the horse's fault though, I do agree with jumping a fence they had no problem with and praising for that, lets the horse know the difference of good and bad behaviour, IMHO.

 

[Kokopelli]

May I ask, if your horse had been the one farting around into the double, would he have got a reminder from you?
Even if it is the horse's fault though, I do agree with jumping a fence they had no problem with and praising for that, lets the horse know the difference of good and bad behaviour, IMHO.

If he was farting around and being a general arse then yes he would have got a reminder from me, not that I've ever had to give him one that was his first ever refusal with me SJ.

About two strides from the first fence I panicked and dropped him in front of the fence (I know bad rider) he some how managed to jump the first fence but crashed into the spread (he's also a 148cm doing seniors so has to get the perfect jump for a good stride at doubles) when I went round for the second time again had a bad jump at the first as I got a bad turn and he couldn't get over the second.

It was totally my fault and using the whip on that occasion wouldn't have helped, it would have wound him up further and made the situation a lot worse.

 

[pixiebee]

Any horse that refuses get's a wallop off me, it does not matter where you are, horses are big, and sometimes dangerous. They must respect the rider/handler at all times as I will not be hurt by ignorant, rude horses. the amount of fluffy people on this thread is a joke.

are you serious????? God I feel sorry for any horse in your care.

 

[Kat]

FWIW koko I think you did exactly the right thing, he was trying but couldn't make it, you recognised your error and didn't punnish him but you also did the easier fence to both restore his confidence and to prevent him from learning that stopping is rewarded.

I do think the height of the fences relative to the horse's scope is a factor too. A stop at 2ft6 probably deserves a smack the majority of the time, the horse could do it from a standstill if necessary, and certainly should be able to go on a long one or chip in a short one but when you are dealing with big fences or a horse jumping toward the top of its ability there is much more onus on the rider to get it right and help the horse.

 

[Ollie's Mum]

There's a big difference between a slap to get on and a bad tempered beating from a useless rider who won't accept their own shortcomings when the horse is doing it's best but probably fed up of being jabbed in the mouth yet again. I don't think that's fluffy bunnies - having seen people take their temper out on a horse I think that there are some that really shouldn't carry a stick.

 

[dafthoss]

Al has been told not to see a stride, but to get and keep a good canter and to then let her horse work out what he wants to do with his striding. He needs to learn what he should be doing, and if Al interferes and tells him and it's wrong, he just blames her and does the same thing the next time. If she gets him the canter he needs then he can work out what he wants. Works very nicely for all concerned

For dropping- would love to see you do that on Reg! He likes a soft and consistent contact that he can rely on for support and guidance. If she dropped him 2 strides before a fence, he'd have the whole lot down and a nervous breakdown! What is it with people and insisting a loose rein is a good one?!

Thats exactly how we work, I sort the canter he sorts his legs. He has to be given the confidence that he owns the fence and its his responsibility to get to the other side by doing what ever he feels appropreate and I just stay with him as best I can. I keep a contact and my leg on or he would have a total break down and stop as thats what he takes his confidence from. He like reg is a worrier and letting him own the fence makes him much happier, he has been ridden by people who try to set him on their stride and he doesnt like it he much prefers to judge it him self.

I think theres a lot of diffrence between a horse stopping at a fence because its having a strop and a horse jumping right on the edge of its capabilities that finds its self with no stride. I have used encouragment from a whip to get him over things he doesnt like but once he has the idea that its just another jump he deosnt need it any more, he has learned, but if he had been allowed to stop he wouldnt have learned that.

 

[wyrdsister]

"Well I'll probably get shot down here, but I'd rather see a naughty refusal challenged with a 'that is not acceptable' smack behind the leg and growling 'GEEETTTTT OOOONNNN!!' Than I would the rider (and 'they' are everywhere) who slap their horses down the shoulder on the approach to EVERY jump!"

Hmm, I'm half inclined to agree and half to disagree, since I used to have to flick my pony behind the girth on the take off stride to every fence. The reason was that he couldn't be trusted not to put in a filthy dirty stop at the last possible second. And I do mean last possible - he could take off, then twist in mid-air and go out the side of the fence! He was an ex-BSJA pony who'd been overfaced before I bought him and he'd developed a wicked sense of humour about jumping. I think the highest I ever jumped him was about 3' (not a course and not even close to what he was capable of), mostly I was only doing 2'-2'6". It was actually safer to remind him he needed to go over the fence than let him muck about at the last minute - he once decided that instead of the 2'3" cross bar we were approaching, he'd rather jump over the ring ropes AND the judge's Landrover. He did - then took off across the showground and over the practice jump before I could stop him! (He adored jumping, never stopped cross-country or at home; but sj he preferred to do on his own terms).

That said, I'd never have hit him for a straight refusal (something had to be wrong for him to just stop) or even one of his evil run-outs because he'd then get hysterically wound up and refuse to jump anything. Nor would I smack my current mare, since if we screw up a fence it's either my fault and/or her inexperience; re-presenting her calmly will fix it. Writing this, I realise I've never owned or regularly jumped a sane, experienced jumper who might stop out of naughtiness, so there are probably plenty of others with better ideas on how to handle a refusal from one of those! I do agree with the OP, though, that the legs, spurs, and sticks being poorly and excessively applied at a lot of competitions really makes me flinch on behalf of the horse!

 

[Ladydragon]

Saw lots of bad riders today ......I,ve never understood it either.Most were teenagers...one girl got a refusal, took the pony back round ..it refused again..it was hit hard with a crop three times and shouted at..took the pony round again ..it refused ..punished again..and again..she tried another jump the same happened......eventually she got it over another jump and was applauded !..then reitred...of course it was the pony,s fault ..nothing to do with being unbalanced , lacking impulsion ....just saw some really awful bad riding ..makes me want to keep our pony forever and never sell her on(which we plan to do ) ..when you see some of the riders they could end up with...

Maybe there's something in the teaching these days... My son won't be bothering with PC after one visit... He's a novice, been riding for less than a year... Hacked his young (but very sensible) pony to the venue, waited for the youngster's lesson and went into the 2nd group - was moved up to the 3rd group as he was the only one checking his diagonals so considered good enough for the top group where they jump... He didn't want to jump as the pony is young and I've told him he's not allowed until he learns properly on an experienced mount... His pony fell off a bit cantering and the instructor told him to use his whip to get her going and then he could jump and give her a crack with the whip to get her over and it would be fine as he had a good seat... He does carry one to tap on the shoulder if she starts to zone out a bit but it was February, she was unfit, had hacked to get there, done one class, was part way through another, would have to hack home and zero jumping experience between them - he wasn't going to slap her around to get her moving more... I'm not an overly fluffy bunny but I nearly choked on hearing it... The two teenagers he was with from the yard verified it all but couldn't see any issue as it was 'normal riding' to them...

Any horse that refuses get's a wallop off me, it does not matter where you are, horses are big, and sometimes dangerous. They must respect the rider/handler at all times as I will not be hurt by ignorant, rude horses. the amount of fluffy people on this thread is a joke.

All well and good if you can ride properly and live up to the 'partnership' approaching the jump and know if it's right for the horse to go over at that time on that day... I do see riders who just fling the whip around when they're at fault not the horse - disagreeing with that approach is hardly 'fluffy'...

 

[Marydoll]

Any horse that refuses get's a wallop off me, it does not matter where you are, horses are big, and sometimes dangerous. They must respect the rider/handler at all times as I will not be hurt by ignorant, rude horses. the amount of fluffy people on this thread is a joke.

You would never park your arse on any of my horses with a riding attitude like that, horses refuse for a multitude of reasons, and yes at times a sharp reminder if the horse is educated and has been presented properly may be needed, But not on a young/green horse or if the stop was caused through poor presentation to the jump or inexperienced riding, to punish the horse in these circumstances is unfair

 

[marmalade76]

The problem here appears to lie with whoever was judging the class. Excessive use of the whip is not allowed under either BS or PC rules and the bell should be rung, the person asked to come over to the judge's box, and then the judge should politely but firmly explain why it is not acceptable to use your whip excessively.

I have done this. A pony stopped in the middle of a double and the child just sat there whacking constantly whilst the pony was standing in front of the fence until I rang the bell and asked her to leave the ring. She made no attempt to represent and was obviously expecting the pony to jump from standstill. Of couse, within thirty seconds the mother was at the judges box demanding to know why her child had been eliminated!

 

[DottyConnection]

I'm going to disagree with 90% of the happy hackers on here. I was taught from a very young age by a very talented international rider that you get the horse to the bottom of the fence and it's their job to jump it! Therefore a stop is a disobedience and should be rectified, regardless of if you missed to the fence!

 

[Shantara]

I'm going to disagree with 90% of the happy hackers on here. I was taught from a very young age by a very talented international rider that you get the horse to the bottom of the fence and it's their job to jump it! Therefore a stop is a disobedience and should be rectified, regardless of if you missed to the fence!

Goodness, that's unfair to label us all as "Happy Hackers". I'm sure there's some very talented jumpers in this thread! I might be a hacker/local show jumper, but that's not the case for everyone.
If a horse does a dirty stop, then it should be put to the jump again, but I can't watch people who think "whackwhackwhackwhack" is the best way to go.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Yeah I'm a "Happy Hacker". Laughable really. I rode for an International rider that won a couple of weeks ago in Florida. Most of his first GP horses were stoppers he got right after they were deemed useless.

Besides I have respect for most riders and would have more respect for a "happy hacker" over you any day. A young green horse being confused does not deserve a slap. Of course judging from your response you definitely couldn't ride my girl and I feel for the ones you will ruin with that attitude.

Terri

 

[Becki1802]

I'm going to disagree with 90% of the happy hackers on here. I was taught from a very young age by a very talented international rider that you get the horse to the bottom of the fence and it's their job to jump it! Therefore a stop is a disobedience and should be rectified, regardless of if you missed to the fence!

I have been told that by some very good instructors who have ridden internationally & I've been made to use my whip for one firm whip when I knew full well it was my mistake. Personally I've never been comfortable with it as I didn't feel if it was blatantly my mistake the horse should be punished. One of my horse worries about being punished because it has happened to him before and the other won't accept a whip at all and it is completely counter productive!!! There is a time and a place for it & maybe if I was an international showjumper and not a 'happy hacker' (as you've labelled all the amateurs) then I'd never make a mistake of my own and it might be appropriate to punish the horse for stopping.

To be fair, I know what you are trying to say and I think sometimes one firm tap is correct but not always and not in the context the OP referred to it!!!

 

[kizzywiz]

Yeah I'm a "Happy Hacker". Laughable really. I rode for an International rider that won a couple of weeks ago in Florida. Most of his first GP horses were stoppers he got right after they were deemed useless.

Besides I have respect for most riders and would have more respect for a "happy hacker" over you any day. A young green horse being confused does not deserve a slap. Of course judging from your response you definitely couldn't ride my girl and I feel for the ones you will ruin with that attitude.

Terri

Actually I agree with this, I train with an international pro & he does tell me its my job to get her to the fence & hers to jump it, however when I came on a duff stride to a triple combination last week, panicked & dropped her & she stopped he commented on the fact that it was good that I sat quietly, sorted myself out & came again. Why would I punish her, she's 7 & inexperienced & I am trying to learn & teach her, sometimes I make mistakes & she's not expericenced enough to help me, so why would I punish her & make her smash through the fence & frighten us both?

 

[Puzzles]

This has to be my ULTIMATE pet hate!
I worked at a riding school for 3 years and a cometition equestrian centre for 2 years, and I saw so much bad behaviour (on the riders' part).
At the EC, it was a rarity to not see a horse punished harshly with the whip for a refusal. The worst cases were not the low key events but BSJA, qualifiers, regional and national events, and with both professional and amateur riders. People often broke the rule about the limit to the number of times the whip can be used in a class, but they were never reprimanded by the association. It made me so angry to see horses that were often inexperienced, young or ridden inadequately being punished - if you can even call it punishment as a training method. Not uncommonly, a horse would refuse and then toss it's head and rush off or give a buck, fully expecting the thrashing (no exaggeration) that followed. Often in those cases, the rider would wait until the horse settled before using the whip on it, which makes no sense at all.
I honestly think that riders use the whip on their horse more out of anger, ignorance and frustration than because they genuinely believe it works (if it worked then they wouldn't need to do it...). Instead, they need to go back to the schooling ring and work on training themselves and their horses to the best of their ability to prevent the refusals in the first place.
Similarly, at riding schools (well, the four I went to) the riders are encouraged to smack their horse every time he offers any unwanted behaviour, particularly refusals. They aren't educated about what they could have done to cause or prevent the refusal,or about why the horse did it in the first place.
All too often horses everywhere are blamed for these things because it's easier for the rider than having to school the horse or even look to themselves to find the fault. They don't know any other way of dealing with the situation so they smack the horse believing that they are asserting themselves as 'the boss' and not 'letting the horse get away with it'. I mean, honestly! Smacking a horse, to me, is more of a big red sign of the rider's feelings about themselves than anything else. Feeling frustrated, ashamed embarrassed etc is all perfectly fine and understandable! Taking it out on the horse never is.
One professional rider I know told me a story (because he thought it was funny) when he competed his green 4-year-old stallion in a BSJA event. It has been raining and they were among the last to compete in their class, so the going was deep and boggy. The horse refused at the third jump three times despite his rider hitting him and growling. When they were eventually eliminated and the horse was smacked and kicked again, the horse reared and his rider slid off. The rider then proceded to repeatedly 'thrash' the horse under his belly there and then.
The rider seemed to think I'd find that funny...

 

[Marydoll]

I'm going to disagree with 90% of the happy hackers on here. I was taught from a very young age by a very talented international rider that you get the horse to the bottom of the fence and it's their job to jump it! Therefore a stop is a disobedience and should be rectified, regardless of if you missed to the fence!

Pmsl are you some international jumping rider then ?
And even if you are i still disagree not every horse that stops deserves a smack