...so your competeing in a show jumping class....and you get a refusal..

[somethingorother]

Shoot me down here but:

My horse occasionally props badly towards the fence then jumps it, I have no problem at all hitting her behind my leg to send her forward. She jumps MUCH better because of it but you have to make it clear. Currently I am schooling at home with a long stick as it means I can 'flick' before she props. I think that sometimes giving a horse a 'whack' can be really useful and beneficial. I went XC last week and she propped towards a fence badly, on landing, (I'm not going to gloss) 'whacked' her twice behind my leg. She then jumped a lot better as it becomes crystal clear what is expected of her!

Please explain the logic of how being hit twice on landing makes it clear to the horse to jump properly?? In my mind, if i jumped and landed and then was hit twice on landing i would be very confused and associate being hit with landing.

 

[stencilface]

I am by no means professional, far from it but my first reaction to a stop on my current horse - who, granted is a saint - is that its my fault. I reorganise myself, represent and try to do everything correctly - ie between leg and hand etc etc. If he then refuses, I would look again to do something differently, like take a different approach to the fence, before I looked to hitting him for anything.

I don't think you see pros (on TV or when out competing at average shows) hit their horse at every refusal, not the ones you respect at least - and there are plenty of 'pros' who I have little respect for due to training methods at home.

 

[Puzzles]

Pmsl are you some international jumping rider then ?
And even if you are i still disagree not every horse that stops deserves a smack

Please explain the logic of how being hit twice on landing makes it clear to the horse to jump properly?? In my mind, if i jumped and landed and then was hit twice on landing i would be very confused and associate being hit with landing.

Ditto this...

I'm going to disagree with 90% of the happy hackers on here. I was taught from a very young age by a very talented international rider that you get the horse to the bottom of the fence and it's their job to jump it! Therefore a stop is a disobedience and should be rectified, regardless of if you missed to the fence!

It would be appreciated if you held back on the rudeness. 'Happy hackers' have to deal with far more on a hack than most riders do in an arena. Hacking is not a discipline to be undermined in any way.

Sounds like your talented international rider was a little in the 1970s...I agree that refusals should be 'rectified' - however a smack with a whip is, by definition, not a recfitication. A rectification is a response that corrects the horse, i.e. encouraging the horse onto the right track to make the 'right' behaviour as easy as possible. It shows the horse what you want him to do rather than punishing him for something he did several seconds ago.
In order to give a horse a measure of punishment, it has to be given within half a second of the behaviour. Realistically, that is very difficult to carry out.
Rectification in its true sense does not involve punishment.

A refusal is always the rider's fault because it is always in their control to prevent. If a horse refuses then the rider needs to look to themselves to work out why and how they can prevent it from happening again.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Yes and no.
If the horse is inexperienced/lacks confidence then no.
If i screw up big time to a decent fence giving the horse no chance then again, no.
If the horse knows its job, was presented correctly and refused then YES.
I'm currently jumping two horses that are poles apart.
Monty is hugely talented but very big, green and lacking balance with hardly any jumping experience. If he stops then I just quietly represent, no fuss, no drama. He is really starting to enjoy jumping, locking on to his fences and taking me to them. His stops are due to lack of balance, inexperience or confidence. None of which would be helped by a good crack from a whip.
Jake (daughters horse) knows how to jump, has good balance and some experience. I've teken the ride for the time being as he discovered he could take the mick with my daughter.
First time in the ring for the two of us weekend before last. He was trying to pull out of every fence, running through shoulder etc. I kept him straight for the first 7 fences and jumped without any refusals. Problem was it wasn't getting any better so fence 8 (last) I let him run out and immediately reprimanded him leaving him in no doubt that jumping was a better idea than refusing.
Next round was absolute bliss to ride. Straight to his fences, lovely rythm, just got on with the job.
The trick (or skill) is knowing when to stay quiet and when to punish. Getting this wrong is what messes up horses.

Oh and as far as dropping horses is concerned, every horse I jump I give freedom to on last stride (soften contact not throw away). As far as I am concerned the last stride belongs to the horse to make final adjustment for the fence. They cant do that if held in full contact. It is rare that even a total release of the contact will cause a horse to stop. What does cause the stop is the rider going forward when releasing the contact before a fence. This unbalances the horse and places the riders weight on the forhand just when the horse is trying to do the opposite oten making it impossible for the horse to jump cleanly.

 

[flump]

I normally fall off when he refuses so I may scream some abuse at him but only at home

 

[kizzywiz]

What does cause the stop is the rider going forward when releasing the contact before a fence. This unbalances the horse and places the riders weight on the forhand just when the horse is trying to do the opposite oten making it impossible for the horse to jump cleanly.


Which is what I did in my lesson on Thursday & why I didn't hit her

 

[*hic*]

Shoot me down here but:

My horse occasionally props badly towards the fence then jumps it, I have no problem at all hitting her behind my leg to send her forward. She jumps MUCH better because of it but you have to make it clear. Currently I am schooling at home with a long stick as it means I can 'flick' before she props. I think that sometimes giving a horse a 'whack' can be really useful and beneficial. I went XC last week and she propped towards a fence badly, on landing, (I'm not going to gloss) 'whacked' her twice behind my leg. She then jumped a lot better as it becomes crystal clear what is expected of her!

This of course would get you a talking to by the Steward at a BE event as the rule is up to three on the approach and only one on landing and never after the last fence.

Yes and no.
If the horse is inexperienced/lacks confidence then no.
If i screw up big time to a decent fence giving the horse no chance then again, no.
If the horse knows its job, was presented correctly and refused then YES.

Ah the voice of experience and reason.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Ah the voice of experience and reason.

You're really saying i am well old aren't you.

 

[MagicMelon]

If I got a refusal I'd wonder what I had done wrong! Definately hate seeing people smacking their horses, especially when its clearly their own fault or doing the 3 smack thing (3 smacks in a row) purely because under BSJA rules thats what you're allowed. A horse IMO should enjoy its jumping, if its refusing then something is wrong - either the training isn't up to scratch or the horse is being over-faced or ridden badly etc. so why punish it?!

So in reply, if my horse refused a fence I'd think "woops, my fault" and represent - no smack at all. If he stopped again, well I'd be elminiated so would leave and try to work out what went wrong! Once my horse went through a short phase of throwing in the very occassional stop as I moved up a level BSJA, I realised he wasnt quite ready for it as we hadnt built up both our confidence for it yet. Did some more training at that height and came back into it far more confident and we've never had any problems since. People are too quick to start beating their horses which just results in an issue being made of it and the horse losing all confidence.

 

[Amy567]

I used to get taught by a woman that taught the Hickstead speed team or something, and she told me to turn my stick around and give my pony three hard smacks on the bum, and tolled me off for doing it too lightly, at the time I was 11.... only ever did it once, the pony started shaking! Bless her.

My most recent horse was so genuine and never refused, so didn't have to do anything like that, and when she did refuse, we knew something was wrong, so retired her.

But a pony I had a couple years back refused and I tapped her on the shoulder with my stick, turned her around and rode her into the fence, and she jumped the rest of the round scared I was going to hit her again, so I don't take a stick with me anywhere now.

I have seen a girl hit her pony on the face with stick, really hard, she got disqualified, but I would be so embarrassed if I were her, or her parents!

 

[fidleyspromise]

Any horse that refuses get's a wallop off me, it does not matter where you are, horses are big, and sometimes dangerous. They must respect the rider/handler at all times as I will not be hurt by ignorant, rude horses. the amount of fluffy people on this thread is a joke.

Sorry Vectro but I disagree with this.
I know if my horse stops it's because I ****** up. She is actually very genuinely and I think we've had one run out. Crikey, actually thinking about it, she doesn't stop, which I am actually amazed at.

It was pointed out to me on here that I drop my pony two strides before a fence and stop riding. If she did stop, it would be my error so I wouldn't smack for this. As I get better, and I know I have ridden well, come in on a correct stride etc and it is down to a dirty stop - yes she would get a smack on the bum.

I don't see this as fluffy people. I agree horses can be dangerous BUT there's a fine line between a naughty stop and a horse that stopped because its unsure / unconfident etc. Its up to the rider to decipher WHY the horse stopped and then to respond appropriately to that.

Take my youngster, if she was to refuse because she's scared and I smack her, she won't try or go near the jump. If I take her away quietly, let her settle and then try again, she's more liable to jump it nicely. To me, the first scenario will make her more dangerous.

 

[hoorayhenry]

I think mine would throw me of if I whacked her a tap on their shoulders if they don't respond to my leg generally works.

 

[Marydoll]

I have seen a girl hit her pony on the face with stick, really hard, she got disqualified, but I would be so embarrassed if I were her, or her parents!

Agree, glad she was disqualified, ive seen someone who rode on a training yard punch a horse in the side of the head when she couldnt get it to turn , she
Wouldnt have been sat on mine with that crappy attitude

 

[Amy567]

marydoll- Blimey! Has she any respect for the powerful animal she's probably given a huge headache to, and could quite easily turn on her and really hurt her if it wanted to?! In my eyes, horses should be respected, lets face it, they could kill you if they wanted to, and it's their respect for us humans that stops them from doing just that, not the fact that they're scared of us. My recent horse really loved me, you could tell she loved people, and that's because we treated her nicely, and di everything we could for her.

Another experience of a bad trainer I've had is, my mare's first time XC to my knowledge, I was put in a PC group of my age, rather than of her abilities, she could jump, we just didn't know her. The trainer asked my where my whip was, so I replied "She's a genuine mare, I don't need one" to which he said, "well, when she stops and you don't have a whip to hit her with, don't try asking for one" So I ignored him, hated him anyway, my mare stopped at a keyhole fence, as I presented her on an odd line and she didn't know what jump to jump, so stroked her and re-presented the fence and she jumped it brilliantly. The trainer then did the whole 'told you so' episode, to which I said it was her first time XC and he soon back tracked and I was put into the younger group with less experienced riders, and was the one giving leads to everyone! And still did the larger course!

I don't believe in trainers that advise you to beat your horse, and quite frankly would never recommend that trainer to anyone, they are an awful instructor, and haven't a clue why the pony club hire them! Advise to carry a stick 'just incase' fair enough, it's up to you to use it, but advise to use it. NO THANK YOU! I have no respect for them what so ever, and they know that from the first minute they start teaching me.

 

[rascal]

I was at a local jumping show and saw a girl get on her sisters pony (she was much too big for it) and whack it a few times then try to get pony round the clear round, still kicking and beating it. I complained to the people running the show and the next week there was notice saying overuse of the whip would resut in the offender being asked to leave the show.

 

[cyberhorse]

The only time I would ever smack my horse (one smack on his bottom) is if he properly tried to slat me last min at a fence when he had been presented it correctly, on a good stride, and gave me no indication he was going to do it (real last min dangerous dirty stop). The only reason I would do this is I would not want him to learn he can get away with bad behavior in a show ring he would not try at home as he knew he would not ever be reprimanded in public. This would be a one off and he would be taken out of the class and taken back home if he had another stop and it would be back to the drawing board. Obviously still bearing in mind that any of us rider or horse can just have an off day.

I always in my head would question why it would be necessary - if he is confident, enjoys his job, well prepared, at the right level, ridden on accurate strides and aworst case ridden correctly to the fence if backing off (needing confidence/reassurance from the rider).

I bought my horse as a "slatter" and he has needed time, patience and careful riding to bring him back to enjoying his jumping and approaching the high level he had previously achieved before being sold on to a novice. He was lacking confidence and I never felt beating him up in the ring or at home would achieve anything. He was re-introduced to jumping as you would train a youngster and kept well within his comfort zone at all times. Yes it takes far longer but he trusts me (something not achieved by overuse of a whip). Yesterday when out competing he backed off a fence 4 out when I turned to it - so just communicating to me he did not like it and was not sure (I was expecting him to look at when I did my course walk). He required a little drive with my seat and a couple of clicks and he trusted me and went without further discussion. I will now recreate this fence and many like it at home in our training so he is confident with this type. Also if we ever have a bad show where I feel he is being pressured I drop him back down a few classes for the next outings or stick to more training at home. I have to go back over 18 months for his last stop and that was completely my fault (I apologised).

There is also the question of whether a rider has reacted prior to the refusal - has the horse come round to the fence and backed off at an early stage and basically said "I think that one looks dodgy are you sure?" If you sit like a lemon and don't communicate is it fair to go OTT and reprimand after the event?

TBH if I ever have to get to a stage where a horse I owned required "beating round" I will sell him to a non-jumping home (obviously after ruling out any medical causes). I know many won't agree with me, but if they really don't like jumping and there are so many horses out there that do, why make both parties concerned unhappy and risk injury?

 

[marmalade76]

Yes and no.
If the horse is inexperienced/lacks confidence then no.
If i screw up big time to a decent fence giving the horse no chance then again, no.
If the horse knows its job, was presented correctly and refused then YES.

Totally agree with this.

I think a lot of pros will punish a horse for stopping regardless of who's 'fault' it is, after all, their livelyhood depends on their horses, unlike us hobby riders. Top comp horses are often taught to jump at all costs, no matter what, and this, IMO, the reason for many of the deaths in eventing.

 

[Kadastorm]

Depends on the situation really.

if the horse stopped because i was riding like an idiot, no i would not smack him/her. i would come around and put my leg on.

if the horse stopped for no apparent reason, only naughtiness, i would growl at him and tell him to get on, possibly give a tap on the way in to reinforce it.

if the horse was genuinely scared, i would come back around, keep my leg on and maybe use my voice to encourage him over.

We have a horse who has so much scope, an absolute darling to ride around a course but sometimes lacks confidence. if you keep your leg on and use your voice he will give anything a go, no need for whipping and i have never jumped with spurs on.