Socially erm... broken?

Lady La La

Lady La La

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B dog came from a rescue, who informed us she was alright with males dogs when introduced gradually in a controlled way, on her terms - and not to be trusted around bitches, ever. We took this advice as gospel, and her and T dog are besties. She's walked with a muzzle and on a lead, I never let her off.
Turns out, she's not dog agressive, I dont think anyway. She doesn't know what to do with herself around new dogs and I believe this has been misread as agression all this time.
Behavioural examples are as follows:
. grows twice as tall, gets very exuberant
. shoots forward as fast as she can, woofing, both front legs waving around in the air, attempting to clamber all over new dog
.tries to pin new dog to the floor, tail wagging, all the time woofing at them
.Starts howling and screaching like she's being strangled
...If new dog hasn't told her to p*ss right off by now, she will then start running around it in circles...still woofing...tail still wagging... occasionally trying to leap on it.

I let her off in an enclosed field, with her long line still attached and her muzzle on, and she met my parents dog (who I knew would put up with being lept all over - Tyson has been his mate for some time now,) and that ^^ is what happened.

There was no growling (from Bryony) it just seemed to be a total over reaction to a new dog. The real worry was that she didn't seem very good at reading Harvey's 'get off me immediately' growls and just carried on regardless.

Is there any way of trying to fix this? How can I get it through to her that jumping all over dogs just isnt acceptable behaviour? Obviously Im not about to let her off the lead to leap all over any old dog, but no one will come near her in training lessons, her socalisation is dire :(
 
In my humble opinion for the little I know about dog ownership, that doesn't sound to me like aggression, sounds more like a unconfident dog who really wants to interact but just doesn't have any social graces! Rescues will often cover themselves by classing any powerful behaviour as aggression, obviously not all rescues have the luxury of behaviourists or time to work on unsociable behaviour.

If you are anywhere near her I'd recommend Angela Stockdale, she uses 'police' (meaning socially aware dogs who control unsocial behaviour..absolutely facinating to watch work) dogs to train social behaviour into other dogs, even if you can't afford to take your dog to her try to catch a training session to see the amazing work.
 
jsr said:
In my humble opinion for the little I know about dog ownership, that doesn't sound to me like aggression, sounds more like a unconfident dog who really wants to interact but just doesn't have any social graces! Rescues will often cover themselves by classing any powerful behaviour as aggression, obviously not all rescues have the luxury of behaviourists or time to work on unsociable behaviour.

If you are anywhere near her I'd recommend Angela Stockdale, she uses 'police' (meaning socially aware dogs who control unsocial behaviour..absolutely facinating to watch work) dogs to train social behaviour into other dogs, even if you can't afford to take your dog to her try to catch a training session to see the amazing work.
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Thanks for the reply, I think I'm inclined to agree with you in that she just doesnt have a clue how to behave!

Will have a google of Angela Stockdale now, sounds facinating.

Edited: Miles from me, but her work looks fantastic.
 
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Lady La La said:
Thanks for the reply, I think I'm inclined to agree with you in that she just doesnt have a clue how to behave!

Will have a google of Angela Stockdale now, sounds facinating.

Edited: Miles from me, but her work looks fantastic.
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I've only seen her working once cos it's other end of the country to me but it's amazing stuff, and so simple when you think about it! Your dog sounds very like my bitch, she was written off as unhandleable (? if that's a word!) and was due to be PTS. I took her on to try to train because the rescue didn't want to give up on her as she was fabulous with people and kids esp..ended up keeping her because her 'aggression' was fear related and not easy to control but it was only because she just couldn't communicate properly! She would barge in, the other dogs would take offense so she'd attack before they could attack her!! Totally avoidable if she'd have been socialised as a young dog. Took a few years and I don't ever trust her 100% because she can sometimes give out the wrong signals but she is walked now unmuzzled and does socialise with large groups of dogs completely safely. She isn't good meeting new dogs and for that I do monitor but I've found the more I interfer the worse she is so I do try to keep myself quiet and distant.

I think what you are doing initially is definatley the right way to go, just little baby steps with dogs that are socially adept and will ignore her bullish ways, do you have friends with secure dogs that would help her move forwards? Once her behaviour has settled with your parents you could introduce another dog to the mix to gauge her reaction? It's not going to be easy but sounds like you are the right person for her, many wouldn't have tried so hard already so I think you'll do great things with her.
 
Its funny cos shes so easy and simple and lovely in all other ways! Compared to Tyson she is a dream to own, I think its literally that she has had absolutely no socialisation as a pup, and because we were told she was dog agressive we have never pushed it.
The over excitement about other dogs, I think she has picked up from Tyson who will bounce up to new dogs howling his head off, but the difference is that he knows when he's crossed the line and any sign of a telling off and he rolls on the floor belly up whining! Bryony doesnt seem to be able to read other dogs body language/vacals etc, she just charges in like a bull in a china shop.
 
jsr said:
Is she staffy type??;)
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American bulldog, possibley crossed with boxer.

katielou said:
Easy answer
Give her to me.
Her and Abe can be socially inept together.
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I've seen your doggy playing with all his little pals in pictures! He's not socially inept!
I will give her to you.................. for you to train her... then send her back to me. Tyson will come too. It will be wonderful - I will have a holiday and you can fix my dogs. Everyon's a winner.
Except maybe Abe... who might get beaten up :p
 
Lady La La said:
American bulldog, possibley crossed with boxer.
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Lol should have known she was a bull breed!! Guess the clue is in the name that they don't do delicate!! Love my bull dogs..got 3 crosses myself but grace and danty they don't do!! Mine would take a sledge hammer to crack a nut but wouldn't change them for the world, just have to learn to move out their way when they are on a mission!!! :rolleyes:
 
Yeah it took a lot of training to get Abe to that point.

He use to run full pelt into the middle of the group of dogs and then try and take them all down making horrible noises before doing laps around them all trying to herd them.
 
jsr said:
Lol should have known she was a bull breed!! Guess the clue is in the name that they don't do delicate!! Love my bull dogs..got 3 crosses myself but grace and danty they don't do!! Mine would take a sledge hammer to crack a nut but wouldn't change them for the world, just have to learn to move out their way when they are on a mission!!! :rolleyes:
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Yeah, she certainly doesn't do dainty! Lovely and calm at all other times, just not when playing with dogs is concerned. :o

katielou said:
Yeah it took a lot of training to get Abe to that point.

He use to run full pelt into the middle of the group of dogs and then try and take them all down making horrible noises before doing laps around them all trying to herd them.
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Yeah, I bet it did. I'm going to seek advice from Tysons trainer, as her current training class she is just sat in a corner with her muzzle on away from all the others and we're not really given the time or oportunity to try and work on her issues. I will put the time and effort in, I just have to be sure that what Im doing is correct... my dogs make me feel like im floundering in very deep water at times. *cough* Tyson.

& to the person that said about Surrey, I have no idea where that is but will look it up! Thank you.
 
What you have described is exactly what Dax does - or did, at least, she's not nearly so over-the-top about it now but she used to sometimes run up to new dogs, jump up, paw at them, play bow and attempt to chase even if the other dog is giving out 'go away, leave me alone' signals. All straining on the end of the lead, of course, so I looked a right out-of-control numpty. :rolleyes:

Again I think it was a socialisation issue, I know she wasn't walked a great deal in her previous home (8 weeks to five and a half months) and then only in a suburban area, complicated additionally by the fact that huskies always have to stay on a lead, so I don't think she ever really got to meet other dogs, play properly and have the opportunity to learn through experience what is and isn't acceptable.

It's taken the better part of a year but for us the solution was focus training (ask CC, it's her favourite subject :p) and, once that was fairly solid, translating it into a recall training class which never had more than six or so dogs in a nice big area, all on long lines, with a trainer and two assistants directly on hand.

We'd work in big sweeping circles, letting the dogs roam out and calling them back to high value treats, letting them out a little further each time until our route overlapped with another dog, letting them sniff the dog briefly and then calling back again, over and over. They're all dead excited at the start, lunging about on the end of the lines but after a good half hour of this it becomes more a case of 'Oh, right, I can go up and sniff that dog but if I come straight back I get chicken. Cool. Can I go and sniff this one now? I kind of want to play... oh, wait a sec, chicken! Awesome.'

I continued this kind of thing on walks, letting her approach strange dogs if they were off the lead but only letting her sniff briefly and, well before she can escalate into an excited frenzy, stepping in, providing a distraction (food, ball etc.) and praising lavishly if she switched her attention back to me.

It doesn't always work, especially if you happen to meet another reactive dog and they set each other off in the excitement stakes and once they've escalated like that it's a lost cause, you just have to drag them away and think about how you could handle it better the next time. At the meet-up, for instance, I wouldn't ever expect her to come to call because there's just too much going on and there's just not a damn thing I can provide that's preferable to hooning about. :p
 
Lady La La - google 'stooge dogs'.
They were recommended to us for our dog aggressive GSD - they are dogs who will tolerate undesired behaviour, the idea being that if the dogs don't react the undesired behaviour isn't getting them anywhere sort of thing! Its a controlled situation which also helps the dog to owner interaction as you're not worried about what might happen.
I don't know whether it will be of any use to you and your girl but it certainly has helped a lot of people!
Good luck!
K x
 
Thanks for that BC, and yep I'm kind of hoping CC reads this and takes pity on me yet again & provides me with tons of advice. Her and Cayla should start charging.... me. :p
The recall training classes sound genius! Is that a comon thing?

I had planned on just bringing Tyson to the meet up, its not fair on her to suddenly over load her with tons of dogs running around her... and even then I probably wont let Tyson off his lead, even if there are fences :o
I'm looking forward to being able to prove to people that he is actually as bad as I've been making out all this time :p
 
KellysHeroes said:
Lady La La - google 'stooge dogs'.
They were recommended to us for our dog aggressive GSD - they are dogs who will tolerate undesired behaviour, the idea being that if the dogs don't react the undesired behaviour isn't getting them anywhere sort of thing! Its a controlled situation which also helps the dog to owner interaction as you're not worried about what might happen.
I don't know whether it will be of any use to you and your girl but it certainly has helped a lot of people!
Good luck!
K x
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Sounds like it would benefit both my dogs, thank you! :)
 
I don't know if the recall classes are at all common, my trainer is a bit odd in that they don't do the usual weekly 'obedience' class but instead run monthly workshops, each on a different aspect of dog behaviour, and you sign up for as many as are relevant to you. I'm sure it's something a decent trainer would be able to arrange for you, even if it's just the two of you in a field with the trainer's steady dog as the stooge. :)

I'm not listening to a word you're saying about Tyson and keeping him on the lead and so on, I said the exact same thing last year and was generally in a total panic about Dax's behaviour, was adamant I'd have to bring a stake and tie-out... she ended up spending the entire evening off the lead and had a wonderful time. It might be slightly different this year if there's a greater number of dogs and they have to take turns but honestly, he will be fine. Him and Dax will chase and chase and chase until they're so knackered that they appear to be good dogs. :p
 
blackcob said:
I don't know if the recall classes are at all common, my trainer is a bit odd in that they don't do the usual weekly 'obedience' class but instead run monthly workshops, each on a different aspect of dog behaviour, and you sign up for as many as are relevant to you. I'm sure it's something a decent trainer would be able to arrange for you, even if it's just the two of you in a field with the trainer's steady dog as the stooge. :)

I'm not listening to a word you're saying about Tyson and keeping him on the lead and so on, I said the exact same thing last year and was generally in a total panic about Dax's behaviour, was adamant I'd have to bring a stake and tie-out... she ended up spending the entire evening off the lead and had a wonderful time. It might be slightly different this year if there's a greater number of dogs and they have to take turns but honestly, he will be fine. Him and Dax will chase and chase and chase until they're so knackered that they appear to be good dogs. :p
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OR ...he will wind Dax up so badly that she reverts back to being as excitable and mental as she was before... or he pisses her off by trying to hump her into oblivion.
On the lead he shall stay :D ... and the stake and tie out is a great idea :p
 
This is exactly the same as Bob, i know he isn't aggresive (runs a mile if a dog tells him off...but then runs straight back because he is sure they can't be serious)!!
As i have had him from a pup i do know that he isn't going to do anything but obviously other owners dont, so i have started using a longline. If there is another dog around i put him on it, let him play but the second it he gets OTT i call him away, settle him and let him play again.
He is getting the idea after just 2 sessions so hopefully we can crack it!
Have to say though, even when he is getting hyper, as soon as i walk away i can call him away with me even when off lead.
He has been to training classes since a pup and is capable of behaving there so i know he can do it ;-)
 
CaveCanem said:
Type 'focus training' in the search bar ^^^ up there and bore yourself stupid :p .
(Heads back outside with a clicker and four pockets full of chicken)
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I typed Focus training into the Hho search bit and it told me no threads on it existed, so I typed it into google and all that came up were pages and pages of gym memberships and stuff :o
 
So in a nutshell, out on walks I want attention on me all the time? and I keep this by giving B/T treats and praise when they look at me, and if distractions occur, call them away from the distraction and praise when attention is back on me again?

...If they fail to come back and focus on me (Tyson) what do I do? Reel him in on the long line? Then does he get a treat or no?

Sorry :o
 
After reading this I googled dog training focus and one of the hits was of a video on youtube. It was of a lady with a bc in a park on a long line throwing a ball on rope and whilst bc was working there was lots of distractions going on.

It was very interesting but I couldnt help thinking dogs are not stupid and can work out they cant hoon off on a long line but when they are let off it could be a different story. I know the logic of it, keeping dogs on the long line and treating until it becomes engrained behaviour but I dont know if it would work for me.

It sems to me recall and pulling on the lead are the 2 most common problems and if it was that easy none of us would have any problems.Speaking as someone who is now faced with their nemesis ie swallows is Diesels downfall and would chase them to the point of exhaustion(his) so have no recall at all.
 
Lady La La said:
...If they fail to come back and focus on me (Tyson) what do I do? Reel him in on the long line? Then does he get a treat or no?

Sorry :o
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You don't want attention on you all the time, they will soon get very bored and sour of that but at regular intervals you want to be able to call them close, have them sit, 'watch me' and treat. If you spot a distraction before they do, do the same, only continue to ask for the watch and ramp up your efforts to keep their attention as the distraction nears (silly squeaky voice, produce a favourite toy from your pocket, gooood booooooooy! etc.) and praise lavishly with food for keeping eyes on you.

And yes, if it all goes to pot physically drag him in on the line - try not to show any disappointment, just wait for him to calm (even if that takes several minutes) and ask for the focus again, then treat when he does it.

It was very interesting but I couldnt help thinking dogs are not stupid and can work out they cant hoon off on a long line but when they are let off it could be a different story. I know the logic of it, keeping dogs on the long line and treating until it becomes engrained behaviour but I dont know if it would work for me.
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I do agree, mine certainly knows the difference between being on the line and being totally off-lead despite nearly a year of line-only work - however, she is a special snowflake and it does work for a decent majority of dogs, hence its continued recommendation. :p
 
Mine figured out the on/off long-line thing too, hence the continuing saga here... he is getting better though, even at coming away from other dogs.

Henry is only stupid in certain, specialised ways:rolleyes:
 
Whatever training you are doing I'd hurry up cos according to the other thread your dog is the most evil thing on the earth and you are an appauling owner for allowing it to behave in such a manner!! :D
 
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