Something is definitely not right here/Who can I Trust

[Mayday23]

2 months ago my 18 year old horse Suddenly came down with acute laminitis. He had, had a great life on a field prior, with the care of my friends and family.

After following vets advice box rest. I placed him on full livery at a long established livery yard. As I work f/t.

He has has now been stuck in a box for 2 months. Now his pedal bone has rotated to 7 degrees. He has lost weight. Apparently had med's given, correct bedding and hay soaked.
A week ago the initial vet that wanted to put him down said she was "Happy with his Improvement". Yesterday he deteriorated. Even though everything has apparently been done correctly.

Why did he suddenly deteriorate?

 

[Red-1]

Have you spoken to the vet and yard owner? Box rest is often used for acute lami, as the pedal bone is not correctly attached. The foot needs supporting with pads and a soft bed, the horse needs to not move much until the attachment is improved, or the rotation will get worse.

Can you see ribs? Has he had blood tests for EMS and Cushings? What results were there?

If he has EMS and there are no ribs evident, then losing weight is the best course of action. Soaking hay reduces the sugars in the hay, so it is less likely to kick off the lami again, and also to aid weight loss.

The vet sounds happy with what the livery yard is doing, I would have a talk with both present. I would be worth a vet callout so you can be brought into the picture and check with the YO that everything is being done.

There could be many reasons for deterioration. Lami is a serious issue. The feet are essentially unstable.

 

[splashgirl45]

Has he been tested for cushings?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Is he on Prascend? The most likely reason for an 18 yr old to develop laminitis is Cushings disease. If he hasn't been tested for Cushings, you should get your vet onto that straight away, ask for the TRH-Stim test in preference to the less reliable ACTH

 

[nagblagger]

Have you visited him, with no warning, to see what bedding he is on and how he looks ?
Stress can make it worse, especially if he has come from a quiet field to a livery yard, on box rest.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Just a thought but has he had any injections lately?

My friends connie got laminitis after the flu jag. Took 8 months for her pedal bone to rotate

 

[SEL]

Even if the yard did everything correctly the laminae have been weakened and it can take time for the pedal bone to drop - it's why vets like to have regular X rays

Same happened with a little welshie on my old yard. Hers was initially grass related but she was on box rest for months with an unstable pedal bone - fortunately she had decent sole depth.

Did anything happen yesterday which could have caused the deterioration? Stress?

 

[AmyMay]

My old vet always called Laminitis a waiting game, even after an initial successful treatment a horse can suddenly become catastrophically unwell again.

 

[maya2008]

Have you had bloods done for:
- cushings
- EMS

You need to check for both. Our vet dithered and dithered, checked for Cushings but not EMS. Finally got the EMS test done. It was that. Medication made a huge difference. We’re still hovering on the edge because the medication causes weight loss and the worry is what will happen when she comes off it, but for now she’s having a lovely happy summer with comfy feet.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

What Amymay said it happened to my mare she was crippled had nearly 3 months box rest had heart bars on was on prascend, lost weight looked great was sound and was going to start turnout and she just went off her feet again literally couldn't stand, vet said its just the way it is sometimes there is just a bit more laminitis to come out and they go downhill, I made the decision to pts the next day I think she had been through enough and it was the worst few months I have ever had.

Sorry to be the voice of doom and you have my total sympathy laminitis is a nightmare, I think you need to speak to your vet and see if there is anymore that can be done.

 

[nagblagger]

The title 'who can you trust?' what are you concerns, the vet or the livery not looking after him. That's why I asked the question earlier, have you visited the horse and been there with the vet?

 

[Highmileagecob]

Having been through exactly the same scenario as the horse in Pinkyboot's thread, it is difficult to pass comment without knowing a full history. Where is your farrier in all this? Please make certain that the feet are properly supported and bloods done for Cushings and EMS. Unfortunately, you have to educate yourself about laminitis to be able to make informed decisions about future care and welfare. It is not difficult, there is loads of information out there, but combing through all the different things that can trigger laminitis can seem a bit overwhelming. Have a chat to a good farrier about hoof support, and ask if he can look at the x-rays for you. If the vet will work alongside your farrier, that is often a good way forward.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Having been through exactly the same scenario as the horse in Pinkyboot's thread, it is difficult to pass comment without knowing a full history. Where is your farrier in all this? Please make certain that the feet are properly supported and bloods done for Cushings and EMS. Unfortunately, you have to educate yourself about laminitis to be able to make informed decisions about future care and welfare. It is not difficult, there is loads of information out there, but combing through all the different things that can trigger laminitis can seem a bit overwhelming. Have a chat to a good farrier about hoof support, and ask if he can look at the x-rays for you. If the vet will work alongside your farrier, that is often a good way forward.

My mare had cushings and ems and was retired through injury so I struggled to keep weight off and she hated being in, I felt like I was fighting a loosing battle this was in 2015 at least they have other things to help with this now compared to then.

 

[Mayday23]

Thanks Guys for your support so far with this thread.

He has been diagnosed with EMS and the vet put him on Invokana which he was responding well too.

The vet and YM just seem to work together and find themselves correct. It's one of those places where they have monthly visits from this practice where you pay nothing. So there in with each other. I'd move him but hes become really lame again and the YM is a Psycho. I've given her the benefit of the doubt but enough is enough.......She has 57 years experience and keep getting it wrong. WTF?

He has apparently not been out of his stable, been having his meds and hay soaked. The vet is Useless all she talks about is euthanasia. Nothing positive, maintaining the horses life. Then she Lords it about thinking she is GOD.

The point is his pedal bone shouldn't have rotated and it has. After improvement its rotated.

I asked the vet about it this weekend and all I got was "Well it can happen" but why???

I need to get him the hell out of there. For his LIFE.

 

[ester]

I don’t think we know all the mechanisms of laminitis hence the ‘it can happen’ - what are you suggesting the YO has been doing/what do you want changed.

Who is doing the trimming/shoeing?

Was he tested neg for cushings and with what test?

 

[AmyMay]

The whole point with laminitis is that after an initial seeming improvement things can worsen suddenly and catastrophically. And two months in the stable is nothing in terms of laminitis. Do you really want him out with rotated pedal bones?

Bottom line is if you think you’re being given the wrong advice and that your horse is being negligently cared for move him and / or care for him yourself with another vet.

Laminitis can often result in euthanasia sadly.

Nothing you’ve told us gives the impression of negligence, quite the opposite.

 

[nagblagger]

If you want to move him, move him if you think his care is being compromised, you appear to be making an excuse that is he lame so you can't. Lame horses get transported daily to go to the horspital etc.
Why haven't you checked on your animal before , leaving it in their 'care' if you had concerns. I know i sound hard but if it was mine i would have been checking regularly/daily even on full livery.
With the pedal bone rotation, age and quality of life maybe euthanasia might be appropriate, especially f you have to rely on others (your friends and family) for his care.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Sadly laminitis often ends in euthanasia. When deciding what to do for the best, you (one) have to consider what the horse's life will be like if he ever does come right
. Will he be able to eat grass/spend time in a field with friends?
If the vet is talking about euthanasia, you should consider it. Vetsxrarely do recommend pts, they may try to lead the inner in that direction but are rarely clear about it.

 

[AmyMay]

Sadly laminitis often ends in euthanasia. When deciding what to do for the best, you (one) have to consider what the horse's life will be like if he ever does come right
. Will he be able to eat grass/spend time in a field with friends?
If the vet is talking about euthanasia, you should consider it. Vetsxrarely do recommend pts, they may try to lead the inner in that direction but are rarely clear about it.

This

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Just because a horse is on medication and box rest for laminitis it can still get worse believe me it happened to me and I was the horses sole carer I did nothing differently, it is what it is and sometimes and have to accept that is the outcome.

It sounds like you are blaming the yo and vet for not caring for the horses needs and that you were aware of the yo being a "psycho" if you thought them incompetent why leave the responsibility with them?

Knowing what I know and had 2 with laminitis I wouldn't feel happy handing that responsibility to anyone psycho or not it's a massive responsibility.

Did you not visit the horse regularly?

 

[Goldenstar]

I am very sorry this has happened to you and your horse .
I can only say from experience get prepared to be brave and put him first .

 

[Red-1]

Thanks Guys for your support so far with this thread.

He has been diagnosed with EMS and the vet put him on Invokana which he was responding well too.

The vet and YM just seem to work together and find themselves correct. It's one of those places where they have monthly visits from this practice where you pay nothing. So there in with each other. I'd move him but hes become really lame again and the YM is a Psycho. I've given her the benefit of the doubt but enough is enough.......She has 57 years experience and keep getting it wrong. WTF?

He has apparently not been out of his stable, been having his meds and hay soaked. The vet is Useless all she talks about is euthanasia. Nothing positive, maintaining the horses life. Then she Lords it about thinking she is GOD.

The point is his pedal bone shouldn't have rotated and it has. After improvement its rotated.

I asked the vet about it this weekend and all I got was "Well it can happen" but why???

I need to get him the hell out of there. For his LIFE.

I don't understand why you think the YM and the vet have an unhealthy relationship? I don't understand why you think the YM has done something wrong? It sounds as if all protocols have been followed.

As I said in a previous post, during a Lami episode, the pedal bone is essentially unstable and can rotate at any time. Even once the initial inflammation has gone down, reducing pain, the attachment will still be weak. That is why they can still rotate. It will likely have been worse if he were turned out.

Lami is a serious thing, I had a load of people thinking I had taken leave of my senses when I deliberately bought my cob, Rigsby, just as he finished 3 months of box rest for laminitis. Yes, he was sound on those front feet at time of purchase but they were precarious. He had ominous bulges in his feet in front of his frogs in 3 out of four feet. He had an EMS score of around 250 (from memory) and I was told no grass for a year - just soaked hay! He had to use the arena as turnout. He had to go skinny too, to try to reverse the EMS (in a similar way to how you can reverse type 2 diabetes in humans). I hated seeing his ribs but it was on vets orders.

Has yours got supportive pads on, or at least a thick bed?

It sounds like all is being done, but if he is in danger of PTS, I would get a second opinion. It will be from a separate vet practice. It is something that is a known thing. That way, you will hopefully have someone you trust to guide you.

 

[eggs]

Laminitis is a dreadful disease and sadly often does end in pts although many horses do go on to make a good recovery.

Early detection is vital. Strict box rest with a deep bed all the way to the door, meds, soaked hay and hoof cushioning which by and large it does sound as though your horse is getting.

Cushings can often cause laminitis so if you haven't already I would get your horse tested. One of mine had Cushings related laminitis which was caught really early but it was still a sickening thing to nurse him through. Since going on Prascend there has been no reoccurrence but I am very vigilant.

I am not sure I would want to travel a horse with laminitis unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

[EventingMum]

Like other posters I think it sounds as though the correct protocols have been followed. Soaked hay, box rest on a deep, supportive bed and any prescribed medication are all recognised as correct with laminitis. Exercise or turning a horse out too soon can do irreversible damage. Pedal bone rotation can and does occur at any point, , it's not an exact science and has happened in many cases despite everything possible being done. It is a horrid condition that can have flare ups after appearing to have some improvement which is what appears to have happened in this case. EMS makes horses particularly vulnerable. The deterioration has happened in spite of the (correct) treatment being given, I doubt anyone is at fault, every horse is difference and each case is different. Saying the rotation shouldn't have happened is like saying a cancer tumour shouldn't grow after chemo, sadly, it can and does happen in some cases - apologies if this analogy offends anyone.

 

[ihatework]

Sounds like YO and vet are working together well.

I’m afraid laminitis is often the beginning of the end - older horse - it happens.

Personally late teens on, with EMS and/or Cushings I wouldn’t persist too long. Quality of life becomes so severely compromised to keep the horse alive.

My 20yo tb type with Cushings was treated first mild laminitis attack, management upped and put down at the recurrence

 

[ycbm]

Thanks Guys for your support so far with this thread.

He has been diagnosed with EMS and the vet put him on Invokana which he was responding well too.

The vet and YM just seem to work together and find themselves correct. It's one of those places where they have monthly visits from this practice where you pay nothing. So there in with each other. I'd move him but hes become really lame again and the YM is a Psycho. I've given her the benefit of the doubt but enough is enough.......She has 57 years experience and keep getting it wrong. WTF?

He has apparently not been out of his stable, been having his meds and hay soaked. The vet is Useless all she talks about is euthanasia. Nothing positive, maintaining the horses life. Then she Lords it about thinking she is GOD.

The point is his pedal bone shouldn't have rotated and it has. After improvement its rotated.

I asked the vet about it this weekend and all I got was "Well it can happen" but why???

I need to get him the hell out of there. For his LIFE.

Nothing you've described says anyone is doing anything wrong. That's very sadly a typical story for laminitis.

 

[Xmasha]

Nothing you've described says anyone is doing anything wrong. That's very sadly a typical story for laminitis.

Speaking from experience this ^^

There aren’t many things in life I regret , but one is trying too hard and too long to save an older pony from lami . It’s a long story , but she had cushings and developed lami. Even being kept in the stable she got worse . It was utterly heartbreaking.
The vet, farrier and myself chucked everything at the recovery.
In the end I couldn’t bare to see her suffer and let her go .
It changed my view completely on PTS
Sorry you and your pony are going through this xx

 

[southerncomfort]

I am very sorry this has happened to you and your horse .
I can only say from experience get prepared to be brave and put him first .

This.

Laminitis is hell. Some recover, many don't.

Last year, sadly we had my daughter's pony PTS because of it. We did everything by the book, she was on Prascend and Metformin, her bloods were all normal and she'd been off grass for months.

But it kept coming back no matter what we did and we couldn't see her in pain any more.

I get that you're angry and upset, but Vets don't recommend PTS unless they truly believe its in the horse's best interests.

 

[fankino04]

Whilst I agree with everything being said above about lami being a bloody awful and unpredictable thing,if you're at the point the PTS is being discussed ( and this is often the best thing in bad cases) and want to know that you have done everything you can, I'd move him to a new yard ASAP, get new vets out to do xrays and bloods, try to have farrier there to discuss xrays and treatment with vet, make a plan and put a very firm timeline in place for when you would have to make "that call" if he doesn't improve again. If he comes good again then management going forward will be crucial, I'm looking after a retired pony ( kissing spines and hock arthritis) with EMS and it really isn't easy.

 

[MissTyc]

My heart goes out to you as this is obviously a very distressing experience and you were clearly anticipating a positive outcome, so this deterioration must be a huge shock. As many have explained, this can happen with lami. As with colic, we don't always understand the course of these conditions and they can be unpredictable with previously seemingly healthy horses struck down without much notice. Lami is one of those conditions many horse owner live in fear of, and your story reminds us why.

With all that in mind, you've had good advice. Personally, I would not move a horse in this condition, but I would absolutely get a second, completely separate veterinary opinion, with an X-ray machine.