Spooky and nappy on hacks

[Ambers Echo]

I have read a bunch of stuff on being patient with horses, letting them stop and look at things etc etc. The theory being that if you put pressure on an already tense horse you just add to the tension and that you might get compliance but not confidence etc.

Trouble is that I have never found being patient with gawpy, looky horses remotely effective! With both Dolly and Toby, the more I let them stop and look the worse they got. Till I got fed up, went zero tolerance with both of them and they both just stopped messing pretty much overnight.

I have read and love books like Horses Never Lie and I don't believe they pretend to be stressy when they aren't. So what is going on?

Today while hacking Dolly and Tobes, we came past a sheepdog rounding up a flock of sheep in the field over the wall. It was quite a lot to cope with as the whole flock was running and the dog was at times running towards the horses. Toby's feet got sticky and I booted him forward and that was it. No problem going past the sheep or on the rest of the hack.

I am now wondering if the whole 'let them stop and have a look' just teaches them that they are allowed to drop behind the leg? Or that they think predator scanning is their job? Whereas a swift 'get forward' is a signal that says whatever is going on over there is nothing to worry about and nothing to do with you. Maybe letting them look teaches them to be distractible when I want them focused on me.

Thoughts?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Each horse is so different.
Hacking chums gelding needs exactly what you did with Toby, boot up ar5e as otherwise he turns into an eejit, spins and dances. Boot him and he moves on.
My B is much more sensible if something really provokes her, she's better if allowed to proceed with caution and investigate. Snowmen were quite terrifying recently, but after creeping up and sniffing, she was fine with not just the 1st but all others after were ignored. A boot up the bum to her in worrying situations has a detrimental effect and has ongoing ramifications.

On the whole, with obviously exceptions along the way, I find the 'tell a gelding' the best response, and 'not reason with a mare' but show her.

To add, previous gelding needed a boot or growl, the late L Fuzzy also needed same when I was on board but if being led then an inspection did the trick. Different things work for different horses.

 

[Red-1]

I have been lucky enough to ride with Mark (author of Horses Never Lie) both in England and America, and even ride a couple of his personal horses (as opposed to the hire horses). I feel I can shed some light.

When Mark rides, he joins with the horse. I mean, his focus is on the horse. He is observant. He does not hold tension in his body, information is passed gently from horse and human and back. Any tension from the horse is dissolved, like in Aikido where you join with the incoming energy, blend with it and bring it to a peaceful solution. We did a whole load of Aikido exercises in blending energy and focus/awareness etc on the floor with each other. Intent and focus is an amazing thing.

Basically, his horses will be confident as they are never left to their own devices. Any tension is brought to a resolution before it becomes an issue. It isn't about the sheep, or cow, or whatever, it is about the feel. In softening the feel, the fear dissolves.

If a horse is allowed to get off topic (looking at cow/sheep/car or whatever) then there is tension, then the rider starts to show fear also in the object by 'showing' it, then the fear multiplies.

By giving Toby a boot and getting on with it, you rescued the situation and told him you would take care of the issue (in his mind, as he was OK after). But, if he were a more stressy horse, he could percieve that he had to be look out, then he found something scary, then the predator on his back went mad at him and attacked him also, so it can get worse.

I went to see him as a one off in England, then went several years to America and learned soooo much. Mostly about myself. It was a hard education. My horses did benefit though.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I also think it depends on the horse and the situation.

Mostly Topaz you have to give a boot up the bum and tell her to get on with it, but she is very anxious and needs to be on the riders aids or she gives herself things to worry about.

Skylla is very bold, I give her time to think about things if she spooks as she doesn't often and generally just needs to suss it out before deciding yep it's not scary and off we go again.

 

[ihatework]

Depends on the horse and situation. But 9/10 I’d choose to send them forwards

 

[LEC]

Its about the right pressure at the right moment. I think you are over simplifying it slightly.

It will depend on the horse - some will take more blunt pressure and some will not. On the whole I find cobs and less athletic horses will take more pressure. The ones which run more on adrenaline will not.

Then there is pennies in the jar situation. A blunt kick might work for that situation but I find if you carry on ignoring the signals it will bite you on the butt and they make you listen in a much clearer way. I could talk for hours on this subject as been my main focus in last few years on improving my ground skills along with my riding to get more out of competition horses.

 

[Pippity]

Blue's pretty smart, so I initially tried the recommended approach of letting her have a good look at things that worried her and let her figure out for herself that they're safe. The trouble is, she doesn't figure out they're safe.

So instead, I push her past whatever's worrying her as quickly as I can. I'll let her go sideways (if it's safe), I'll let her pass as far from it as possible, and I'll let her snort and scuttle and stare, but I don't let her stop. I know from experience that once she stops, she'll plant, and that'll be followed by spinning and trying to go home. However, once she's got past the scary thing once, she'll be fine in future.

She needs me to tell her that it's safe and push her through it. She's not a naturally bold horse, and she'd far rather not investigate something scary to figure out if it's safe. She'd far rather just go home and avoid the issue, thanks.

 

[NinjaPony]

Depends on the horse.
Allowing my Welsh to stop, look and think before flying off the handle has been key to improving his behaviour. He needs the time to assess the threat, receive some reassurance and then follow me past whatever it is. Pushing him just results in a huge meltdown, and now it’s become habit, he only needs to stop for a few seconds. It’s just broken the reaction cycle a bit so he’s less unpredictable.
Others I’ve ridden really need a firm push on, allowing them to stand just creates more of an issue.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I do a lot of reading then play around with the ideas. It is rare that an idea that I liked and that made sense to me yielded such very clear 'nope this isn't working' results' so quickly.

With Dolly there were some sheep in a triangular field soon after you left the yard. Day 1 , little snort and spook. Stopped to look. Day 2, planted. Let her approach slowly. Day 3 began backing off 20m away fromt the field! It was as if in her head we had reached the 'stop and stare at the sheep' part of the ride. I booted her forward and she has ignored them ever since.

I have huge respect for Mark and am not remotely suggesting he was wrong! I was just interested in the reactions I was getting and wondering why I was getting them. I can see that some horses would need more time.

Thinking about it, it was similar when I was teaching Toby to jump. Letting him look and sniff everything meant he stayed suspicious of any new jump and would not jump anything without being alllowed to check it out first. It was only when I had much more of a 'it's just another jump so jump it' attitude and stopped letting him explore each one that he seemed to become more confident of all jumps.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Mostly Topaz you have to give a boot up the bum and tell her to get on with it, but she is very anxious and needs to be on the riders aids or she gives herself things to worry about.
.

This sounds like Toby. He's not that anxious but does need to be on the aids or he seems to think it's his job to suss out of something is safe or not.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

This sounds like Toby. He's not that anxious but does need to be on the aids or he seems to think it's his job to suss out of something is safe or not.

Yeah she is much better when the rider is taking all the decision making for her, left to her own devices everything is way too scary...

 

[Green Bean]

It is so difficult as horses are all individuals. There are some that will take the Mick, and others than are genuinely afraid / uncertain and so difficult to see the fine line between the two. Agreed that horses will pick up on a rider's uncertainty and play it for what they can get away with, but again, do they have such thought processes to allow them to do this?
I have had battles with my mare, won some and lost some. Just because she has gotten past something in a previous hack doesn't mean that she will be bold enough to accept it the next time. I do the stop and look if I feel she needs a little time to process something - this has one of two effects 1. changes gears in her head and she can carry on 2. it is worse than she perceived it to be and she will turn tail and try and get away from whatever danger she perceived there to be. I believe you need to learn from the horse you have - you are not there to fight with it, head on is not constructive.

 

[Auslander]

Totaly agree that it depends on the horse. I mostly use the kick on method, but Alf would put me on the floor if I did that to him mid spook! He doesn't really get sticky - he gets incredibly tense, and scoots past giving things a wide berth whilst snorting and goggling. Best tactic with him is to ignore him and carry on chatting - he needs my engagement to feel like hes achieved a good spook.

 

[Ambers Echo]

. Best tactic with him is to ignore him and carry on chatting - he needs my engagement to feel like hes achieved a good spook.

 

[Caol Ila]

I have been lucky enough to ride with Mark (author of Horses Never Lie) both in England and America, and even ride a couple of his personal horses (as opposed to the hire horses). I feel I can shed some light.

When Mark rides, he joins with the horse. I mean, his focus is on the horse. He is observant. He does not hold tension in his body, information is passed gently from horse and human and back. Any tension from the horse is dissolved, like in Aikido where you join with the incoming energy, blend with it and bring it to a peaceful solution. We did a whole load of Aikido exercises in blending energy and focus/awareness etc on the floor with each other. Intent and focus is an amazing thing.

Basically, his horses will be confident as they are never left to their own devices. Any tension is brought to a resolution before it becomes an issue. It isn't about the sheep, or cow, or whatever, it is about the feel. In softening the feel, the fear dissolves.

If a horse is allowed to get off topic (looking at cow/sheep/car or whatever) then there is tension, then the rider starts to show fear also in the object by 'showing' it, then the fear multiplies.

By giving Toby a boot and getting on with it, you rescued the situation and told him you would take care of the issue (in his mind, as he was OK after). But, if he were a more stressy horse, he could percieve that he had to be look out, then he found something scary, then the predator on his back went mad at him and attacked him also, so it can get worse.

I went to see him as a one off in England, then went several years to America and learned soooo much. Mostly about myself. It was a hard education. My horses did benefit though.

Yeah, I don't think Mark lets a horse get to the point where he's choosing between letting it look at something scary, or booting it past it. He's absorbing and directing that energy long before the horse has balked or spooked. The rest of us punters can't quite intercept the thoughts of a horse with that kind of grace, so we get to talk about what we do after the horse has already decided it wants to spook. Riders like Mark get there way before.

I wish I had a Mark around for starting with this filly.

 

[ycbm]

They take their confidence from the rider.

I've told this anecdote a few times before but I bought a horse from a pair of novices. When I picked him up they said "you can't hit him and he won't cross bridges". I took him out on his first hack, came to the unavoidable bridge. He refused to cross it. I tapped him once fairly sharply with a short whip on his backside. He tootled over the bridge and never complained about a bridge ever again.
.

 

[Roxylola]

Tense, or distracted? A tense (edging to frightened) horse who is on my aids, working to a contact and is generally listening, I'm not going to ramp pressure on, they can stand and look, they can slowly approach, they cannot spin or reverse. They're also allowed to give something a wide berth.
A horse whos distracted, looking all at things because they are a bit self employed ill put pressure on them, they've no business knowing about sheep over the wall or whatever because their job is to go past the wall (or whatever).
How to know the difference ? well thats a lifes work.
One important thing though - I never never get cross, I might growl a bit, I might be a bit forceful but I'm not actually cross and I never tell either case off. As such I think you can afford to sort of emphasise the "job" expectation first if you're unsure. So a firm leg aid - you'll either get an obedient response or an escalation - if the work reminder works happy days, if they escalate and say no I really can't cope then back off a bit, give them a minute and then remind them they've got a job to do

 

[scats]

Definitely depends on the horse. If you did that to Millie, she’d stand up (I know from experience!). She’s the type that you have to the pressure off and give her a few seconds for her brain to catch up, then you can ask her to go past.

 

[milliepops]

Definitely depends on the horse. If you did that to Millie, she’d stand up (I know from experience!). She’s the type that you have to the pressure off and give her a few seconds for her brain to catch up, then you can ask her to go past.

Yes kira is like this, a strong aid triggers the middle finger reaction and quick escalation. But she does sometimes start a nap about one thing that quickly turns into a daydream about something else. So you do have to ensure she's concentrating on the thing that first made her hesitate.

I taught her to approach (and where possible nose boop) a spooky object because that makes her stay focused and she understands the instructions, but sometimes we do still have to go at a snail's pace to achieve it.

 

[Trouper]

I agree all horses are different but I have noticed a difference between mares and geldings. The boys seem to need the confidence of a boot up the backside to be told that the rider is in charge and all is well. The mares - well that has always been more of a negotiation - although the rider's word is final! Stronger mares have liked to suss out the situation for themselves.

 

[milliepops]

I do have some mares that have needed the quick aid to railroad them past something but agree that geldings are more often simple like that.

 

[Ambers Echo]

This thread is just reminding me (again) that rules/how to guides are no substitute for horsemanship skills developed from years of experience. And why so many more novice owners may think they have been missold a horse who goes from hacking perfectly well to being a spooky nappy nightmare overnight.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I do have some mares that have needed the quick aid to railroad them past something but agree that geldings are more often simple like that.

I know Horses Never Lie but Dolly is a pony....I think she was just taking the piss!

 

[Roxylola]

Oh 100% true AE!
To try and summarise my approach, its a bit like being caught browsing the internet at work. Assuming its a reasonably relaxed work place you (as the boss) might raise an eye brow and ask is that work related if your employee jumps and apologises and closes it down then they just needed a reminder. If they react more emotionally or something then you (as a good understanding boss) might accept that they need a minute to sort something out thats a bit more urgent than work

 

[DiNozzo]

I taught her to approach (and where possible nose boop) a spooky object because that makes her stay focused and she understands the instructions, but sometimes we do still have to go at a snail's pace to achieve it.

I had a gelding who did this more or less on his own. Never the bravest, and the nappiest creature I've ever tried to get off the yard but he was very inquisitive when not being a knob.

He'd stop and look at something (and if safe be encouraged to go touch it), but depending on where we were in relation to home, he'd sometimes start a nap. He'd have this awful way of just twisting his nose out slightly that just set his neck so it was impossible to do anything with a contact.

Fixed that with a thwack down his neck with a loose rein, one high hand (to stop the spin...) and both legs on hard as I dared. Then big pats and nice words the second he moved in the direction I wanted.

 

[silv]

I also think it depends on the horse and the situation.

Mostly Topaz you have to give a boot up the bum and tell her to get on with it, but she is very anxious and needs to be on the riders aids or she gives herself things to worry about.

Skylla is very bold, I give her time to think about things if she spooks as she doesn't often and generally just needs to suss it out before deciding yep it's not scary and off we go again.

I would agree with this 100%

 

[AUB]

On my mare stop and wait is definitely the way to go. She’s hot in general, quick to get overloaded with stress and if you push her when she’s all filled with stress hormones she’ll panic and reverse quickly. She’s never just a little sceptical, it’s always all or nothing.
She needs to get the stress hormones out of the body to be able to think and for me to be able to get a signal through to her. Give her a minute to relax and when you feel her sigh you can ride on with a loose rein.

But she is never nappy or spooky in a naughty way. A naughty horse I would boot on, but this one? Nope.

 

[DabDab]

Currently I have one that I keep everything chill with and allow to look and two that get told quite clearly that it is not for them to worry about that thing over there, because I've got it.

In general I lean more towards a leg on, jolly hockey sticks, nothing to see here approach. Which works with most horses, until you get one that has a meltdown in response. And then you find another way.

The one of mine who I indulge with as much looking as he needs is an internal worrier - he hides a lot of low level stress and then will suddenly boil over very quickly and any attempt to contain or control the reaction just ends with super expressive legs everywhere type coping mechanisms. As much as I love getting stuck in a weird, tense, piaffe type situation in the road, I'm given to understand that it is not very socially acceptable ?. However, conversely he is really not nappy or difficult at all, so it is easy to give him the latitude when he does genuinely find something scary.

 

[iknowmyvalue]

Definitely depends on the horse. Henry needs constant “hand holding”, leg and to be kept focused on the job or he’ll go self employed and find things to spook at, usually not things you’d expect a horse to spook at (eg. Not the flapping rubble bags or arctic lorries, but the person walking their dog 2 fields away). I do let him investigate things sometimes, but he usually spooks himself more by knocking them over or making them make a weird noise by blowing on them.

If you did that to Rosie, who wasn’t super spooky, you’d either get a speedy reverse including bucking and trying to spin or you’d end up in the next county. But if you let her stop and investigate, she’d decide it wasn’t scary and get over it.

 

[Hackback]

By giving Toby a boot and getting on with it, you rescued the situation and told him you would take care of the issue (in his mind, as he was OK after). But, if he were a more stressy horse, he could percieve that he had to be look out, then he found something scary, then the predator on his back went mad at him and attacked him also, so it can get worse.

This makes sense to me. We have one of each. One you have to get behind him the instant you feel the slightest hesitation. The other would go into panic mode if you tried to force him to do something he was genuinely scared of. He's not so bad now (we've been together 11 years) but in his younger days he actually sat down a few times, he was so beside himself. I've never known a horse wet himself, but if he had been a dog he definitely would have done that!