Spooky and nappy on hacks

[scats]

This thread is just reminding me (again) that rules/how to guides are no substitute for horsemanship skills developed from years of experience. And why so many more novice owners may think they have been missold a horse who goes from hacking perfectly well to being a spooky nappy nightmare overnight.

Definitely. Feel is something you generally get from a lot of experience of riding different horses. You quickly work out what buttons you can press when and when you need to back off and try a different approach. Someone could watch me hack Millie out and think she’s easy and just pootles along, with the odd spook thrown in. I can stop the internal worries she has before they escalate, but I can feel them underneath me. But if a novice took her hacking, Im pretty sure they’d come to blows before too long.

 

[HashRouge]

I think they need to know that you aren't scared and that you want them to go forwards/ past the scary object. If you just sit there and let the horse look at whatever is scaring it, the horse will make up its own mind as to what to do, and quite often that will be running in the opposite direction. What I have found most effective is to give the horse a chance to have a look, then ride forward as positively as needed. I like to do the first step so that they have time to process what they are scared of and hopefully register that it won't eat them once they've gone past it. My share horse will get progressively sillier if you don't ride him forwards - I think in his mind, it gets scarier if I don't tell him what to do. Similarly - I tried being very nicey nice with my Arab when she went through a phase of refusing to load into a horse box. Stood there for ages letting her stiff the ramp and being very encouraging. Turned out what she actually needed was for me to stop saying "go in if you want to, it's fine" and start saying "we're going in". All I needed to do was march her towards the box and up the ramp without giving her time to think. Sometimes when it is a confidence thing I think this sort of approach is more effective.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Definitely. Feel is something you generally get from a lot of experience of riding different horses. You quickly work out what buttons you can press when and when you need to back off and try a different approach. Someone could watch me hack Millie out and think she’s easy and just pootles along, with the odd spook thrown in. I can stop the internal worries she has before they escalate, but I can feel them underneath me. But if a novice took her hacking, Im pretty sure they’d come to blows before too long.

Absolutely!
B and I are in demand as escorts locally ever since I got her, and with my previous 3. I think its because I'm pretty savvy and keep calm. Only 1 of them I would class as a steady hack, all needed riding in different ways.
If a competent novice got on B and set to or reacted negatively to something, a situation could very well turn into a crisis.
Trust, rider reading signals by instinct and schooling get through most situations.

 

[LEC]

I read something today and thought it applies nicely to this discussion.
'Its easy to make horses do stuff. They are almost all wimps and easily succumb to any amount of bullying we impose in our efforts to make the feet do what we say. but getting a horse to do stuff that is not their idea is not good horsemanship. That's slavery. No matter how compliant a horse. Conflict is created when we make the horse do stuff that is not its idea to do. Conflict is avoided when the stuff we want our horse do is the same as the stuff they want to do. Good horsemanship is about directing a horse's thoughts, not its feet. When we change the horse's idea to be the same as our idea, let it happen, there will be no conflict.'

 

[j1ffy]

I'm another in the 'it depends' camp. Some of mine need to be told, sometimes firmly, to get on with it as they're bold types and not really spooky. It's easy to tell when they are genuinely scared though and it's a very different reaction, so I'll tend to be a bit more encouraging and try to give them thinking time in those situations.

Danny has been an interesting case as he's always been very confident out hacking - I can think of twice when he's done anything approaching a 'proper' spook and both times he's almost apologised and walked on past. In the school it was a different story to begin with, he had me off on my first ride with a very sharp spook. That was down to anxiety and his brain going into flight mode, so my approach was to let him quietly look, touch with his nose and think about the scary thing. It took a while for him - maybe six months - to settle and I very rarely need to do that now, I can generally get my leg on, take a contact and worst case do some shoulder-in past anything that he objects to. But I can definitely feel when there's something he may not be able to cope with and I adjust my approach based on that.

 

[Ambers Echo]

LEC, That's the kind of thing I was referring to in my first post. The make your idea his idea/ be patient/let the horse choose etc etc. All sounds great,. But the practical application of that is trickier! Me not insisting on them moving their feet was setting up tension in Toby and evasions in Dolly.

I love that philosophy but often real life there are nuances and unintended consequences of trying to follow a philosophy you don't have the horsemanship skills to properly apply, and that lead you into dead ends.

I went to a Mark Rashid clinic a few years ago and there wre some riders and spectators who were upset with him because he wasn't doing their interpretation of what the books said! So people were arguing with Mark Rashid about what Mark Rashid would do in that situation!!

 

[LEC]

I read something today and thought it applies nicely to this discussion.
'Its easy to make horses do stuff. They are almost all wimps and easily succumb to any amount of bullying we impose in our efforts to make the feet do what we say. but getting a horse to do stuff that is not their idea is not good horsemanship. That's slavery. No matter how compliant a horse. Conflict is created when we make the horse do stuff that is not its idea to do. Conflict is avoided when the stuff we want our horse do is the same as the stuff they want to do. Good horsemanship is about directing a horse's thoughts, not its feet. When we change the horse's idea to be the same as our idea, let it happen, there will be no conflict.'

BTW its by an Aussie called Ross Jacobs on FB. He loathes the whole move the feet thing.

 

[milliepops]

Good horsemanship is about directing a horse's thoughts, not its feet. When we change the horse's idea to be the same as our idea, let it happen, there will be no conflict.'

I don't think that this is in direct opposition to deciding to ask a horse to walk on past something in the way that you perhaps think, AE?

You can direct a horse's thoughts from a flappy crisp packet to the clear road ahead, and with some horses, the right approach is to ask them to ignore the crisp packet and think about marching off down the road.

With another horse you might direct his thoughts specifically towards the crisp packet which might have triggered a nappy type of reaction and need properly dealing with before you can think about moving on.

you're right, it's another example of one size doesn't fit all. One size never fits all. the trick for me is to apply the same philosophy in different approaches (if you want to have something that makes internal sense to you and helps to maintain consistency). redirecting a horse does not have to be the same as bullying it.

 

[Michen]

Ha, funny as I was just thinking about this yesterday. When Boggle was a youngun he had a devilish spin in him. I had to be really careful about letting him stop to look at anything too much as if I was too late with the forward aids he would drop his shoulder and go.

Now, even when he's snorting his head off and being a complete tit I keep the reins relaxed and just gently nudge him on (i would never need to properly use any sort of firm aid) and he dances past it with a bit of drama but no spin. He will rarely actually stop, and I don't need to worry about him spinning anymore however silly he's being.

Bear is a trickier one, he's much more sensible than idiot Boggle but you have to problem solve with him more if he really is worried about something. You equally have to get it right if it's a genuine spook or actually him napping. You can't give him an inch as he picks up bad habits extremely quickly if he learns something is an option. So you have to correctly assess things with him.. not always easy. Now he's rising 5 it's rarely an issue but I expect he will test boundaries again at some point soon.

 

[Caol Ila]

LEC, That's the kind of thing I was referring to in my first post. The make your idea his idea/ be patient/let the horse choose etc etc. All sounds great,. But the practical application of that is trickier! Me not insisting on them moving their feet was setting up tension in Toby and evasions in Dolly.

I love that philosophy but often real life there are nuances and unintended consequences of trying to follow a philosophy you don't have the horsemanship skills to properly apply, and that lead you into dead ends.

I went to a Mark Rashid clinic a few years ago and there wre some riders and spectators who were upset with him because he wasn't doing their interpretation of what the books said! So people were arguing with Mark Rashid about what Mark Rashid would do in that situation!!

Was that the clinic I was riding in? I don't recall anyone having arguments with Mark. Can you remember what the issue was?

Gypsum has always been a weird combination of leg on and push past, but choosing your battles too. If you try to push her into doing something that she is emphatically against doing, you will have a fight on your hands, and you will lose. I learned to avoid outright conflict by introducing her to things in a careful way, so if she says "no," it's not an emphatic enough "no" that you can't change it to "yes."

 

[DabDab]

I don't think that this is in direct opposition to deciding to ask a horse to walk on past something in the way that you perhaps think, AE?

You can direct a horse's thoughts from a flappy crisp packet to the clear road ahead, and with some horses, the right approach is to ask them to ignore the crisp packet and think about marching off down the road.

With another horse you might direct his thoughts specifically towards the crisp packet which might have triggered a nappy type of reaction and need properly dealing with before you can think about moving on.

you're right, it's another example of one size doesn't fit all. One size never fits all. the trick for me is to apply the same philosophy in different approaches (if you want to have something that makes internal sense to you and helps to maintain consistency). redirecting a horse does not have to be the same as bullying it.

Totally this. While that quote is completely correct, it misses a big chunk of the story, namely that not being dictorial doesn't mean that you just do nothing. It's much like while I don't want a boss who micro-manages me, I also don't want one who doesn't tell me what they want or frame the bigger picture for me.

The micro-managing boss most people will find annoying but they will ultimately go along with it (humans, like horses, are wimpy), but the boss on the other extreme who gives you nothing is the one that really stresses most people out.

Whereas what is probably best in a lot of circumstances for both horses and humans is more of a coaching approach where there is a constant conversation going on with a certain amount of positive challenge thrown in when the situation suits. Every great horseperson I have known irl has been brilliant at that conversation with whatever horse they are with.

The nature of the conversation and positive challenge is still different between different horses though.

 

[tristar]

I read something today and thought it applies nicely to this discussion.
'Its easy to make horses do stuff. They are almost all wimps and easily succumb to any amount of bullying we impose in our efforts to make the feet do what we say. but getting a horse to do stuff that is not their idea is not good horsemanship. That's slavery. No matter how compliant a horse. Conflict is created when we make the horse do stuff that is not its idea to do. Conflict is avoided when the stuff we want our horse do is the same as the stuff they want to do. Good horsemanship is about directing a horse's thoughts, not its feet. When we change the horse's idea to be the same as our idea, let it happen, there will be no conflict.'

ok so how does that translate to getting a horse on a box for example?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Was that the clinic I was riding in? I don't recall anyone having arguments with Mark. Can you remember what the issue was?

Gypsum has always been a weird combination of leg on and push past, but choosing your battles too. If you try to push her into doing something that she is emphatically against doing, you will have a fight on your hands, and you will lose. I learned to avoid outright conflict by introducing her to things in a careful way, so if she says "no," it's not an emphatic enough "no" that you can't change it to "yes."

No it was one in Hampshire I was thinking of. There was a vocal group of Rashid stans there! Though iirc there was a woman on a pony in Scotland unhappy with being asked to put more pressure on with the rein? Said she never wanted to feel pressure in her hands and thought he was all about lightness. That was similar. Lightness was an outcome and goal not a rule.

 

[Caol Ila]

Very good question, tristar.

A few years ago, at aforesaid Mark Rashid clinic, my horse took offense at the trailer and would not get on. She'd been an okay loader when she was young, but trailers in the UK are smaller and have ramps, she was never a fan of this. Especially the ramps (my kingdom for a step-up herring-bone trailer!). The husband of the YO hosting the clinic, who was into his natural horsemanship training, ended up helping me. Three hours later, he convinced my horse to get in the damned trailer. While he was working with her, he said superciliously, "This horse is what we call a 'self-harmer.'" Which meant the horse would rather tolerate pressure than give to pressure and go where he wanted her to go. I think he rather misunderstood my horse. If you did all that natural horsemanship groundwork stuff away from a horse transport vehicle, she would be super light and responsive. But given a choice between a human swinging a leadrope and a trailer, she'll choose the leadrope. The horse was around 24 at the time, and she knew what she was doing.

So yeah, try to foster a better relationship between your horse and transport than I did, and hopefully your horse won't decide that there is fkucing way it's getting into that vehicle. I wish I had a better answer.

 

[LEC]

ok so how does that translate to getting a horse on a box for example?

I have had some wonderful training from the amazing Tarr Steps on loading. You actually correct the horse until they decide they will go on. No force goes in. Its a discussion about it all and regular correction. I have a tricky one. The discussion is never about her going on the trailer, its about her staying straight, about taking small steps and if she doesnt you correct, about her not loading her feet unbalanced. There is never a discussion about going on the trailer. That comes as a result of everything else being correct. If she rears the discussion is again about staying straight, correcting the balance and small steps. Its again not about loading. Its her arguing about the 3 things that I want because once you have those three things they will load.

 

[ycbm]

I can identify the following types of horses in dealing with spooks.

1. I need confidence given me by my rider.

Will often respond to a boot or a tap with the whip.

2. The fighter.

Will escalate into bucking and/or rearing if you try to force the issue.

3. I can't hear you.

Will shut down with its fingers firmly in its ears, and no amount of booting or hitting will do anything but make it shut down more. Might reach a point where it suddenly reacts and explodes.

4. The runner.

If pressured will suddenly run for it. May be past the danger or spin and away from it or high speed reverse. If prevented, may rear.


I currently own two runners, but I have had all types. Any others?

 

[DabDab]

I can identify the following types of horses in dealing with spooks.

1. I need confidence given me by my rider.

Will often respond to a boot or a tap with the whip.

2. The fighter.

Will escalate into bucking and/or rearing if you try to force the issue.

3. I can't hear you.

Will shut down with its fingers firmly in its ears, and no amount of booting or hitting will do anything but make it shut down more. Might reach a point where it suddenly reacts and explodes.

4. The runner.

If pressured will suddenly run for it. May be past the danger or spin and away from it or high speed reverse. If prevented, may rear.


I currently own two runners, but I have had all types. Any others?

5. The 'oo I found a thing to look at'

 

[tristar]

the oh god whats that monster, but hey look my rider is relaxed and looking at 200 yards down the road, i can feel a steady leg on my side and my rider gently holding my mouth and asking me to walk forwards, no pressure, cant be too much to worry about

the , i ain`t going near that at any price, head held very high stops suddenly trying to think of plan, rider jumps off, says its ok pony, come with me, walks in front of horse straight to scary object and touches it lets horse touch it then walks up and down 59 times or how ever many needed, till horse starts to nod off, hears rider say what a clever pony

most of which can be avoided by taking out babies and olders for in hand walks
in scary places and taking advantage of visiting diggers, tractors noisy neighbours etc

all in the hope that avoiding confrontation is easier

 

[Ambers Echo]

5. The 'oo I found a thing to look at'

6) The pony! 5 followed by 'hey I got to stop and gawp at the thing so imma do that again. And again and again.'

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

6) The pony! 5 followed by 'hey I got to stop and gawp at the thing so imma do that again. And again and again.'

And the, I gotta gawp, whorrissit? [Rider: well here you go, all fine by me]
Ah, ta, that's ok then..... marches onwards and doesnt bother again

 

[DabDab]

And the, I gotta gawp, whorrissit? [Rider: well here you go, all fine by me]
Ah, ta, that's ok then..... marches onwards and doesnt bother again

Haha, yes pebbles the Connemara is very like that - things go in either an OK or a not OK box. There is very little room for grey in her world, just things pending box placement.

 

[Michen]

the oh god whats that monster, but hey look my rider is relaxed and looking at 200 yards down the road, i can feel a steady leg on my side and my rider gently holding my mouth and asking me to walk forwards, no pressure, cant be too much to worry about

the , i ain`t going near that at any price, head held very high stops suddenly trying to think of plan, rider jumps off, says its ok pony, come with me, walks in front of horse straight to scary object and touches it lets horse touch it then walks up and down 59 times or how ever many needed, till horse starts to nod off, hears rider say what a clever pony

most of which can be avoided by taking out babies and olders for in hand walks
in scary places and taking advantage of visiting diggers, tractors noisy neighbours etc

all in the hope that avoiding confrontation is easier

One of my horses (Boggle) has experienced every aspect of life you could hope for. Lived on a farm, hunting, eventing, beaches, hacked down A roads, I can’t think of any “experience” box left untouched.

That has not meant we’ve avoided him being an absolute tit over an oddly shaped stone ?

 

[Flame_]

2. The fighter.

Will escalate into bucking and/or rearing if you try to force the issue.

My horse is this one, totally. He is wired to be at peace and in total control of his vital safety at all times. If for one minute he thinks I'm telling him to do something that might jeopardize his safety, and not listening to and respecting his concerns he launches an instant dramatic battle to seize control. It took a long time to establish a happy, confident relationship. What usually keeps him going past anything he is having doubts about is lots of vocal encouragement, chatting away and singing. He can balk at a firm leg aid let alone a whip. If he does chuck a tantrum, you've pretty much got to ride it out until he decides it's not worth it and carries on or get off and lead if its a precarious situation involving traffic/ ditches/ banks/ etc.

I love him for it actually. I can't make him do anything, but he's a really good boy now.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

One of my horses (Boggle) has experienced every aspect of life you could hope for. Lived on a farm, hunting, eventing, beaches, hacked down A roads, I can’t think of any “experience” box left untouched.

That has not meant we’ve avoided him being an absolute tit over an oddly shaped stone ?

How about a single daffodil?
Thr late L Fuzzy used to have an attack of the vapours about those ???

 

[Michen]

How about a single daffodil?
Thr late L Fuzzy used to have an attack of the vapours about those ???

Don’t even talk to me about daffodils. I think it was one of the things Boggle actually managed to evict me for as a 5yo.

 

[palo1]

Don’t even talk to me about daffodils. I think it was one of the things Boggle actually managed to evict me for as a 5yo.

This reminds me of both my older and younger horse: the older is a very sharp but brave chap who as a 4 yo would march past anything whilst snorting his utter disdain for notions of fear....except for bits of sheep's wool on a fence. And he lived with sheep!! My young horse is literally totally unphased by anything; any kind of traffic, horses galloping up and down a nearby fenceline, chainsaws, hedgetrimmers, (she piaffes and passages very prettily but there is no sense whatsoever of her losing the plot) but me removing a piece of paper from my pocket whilst I am on board calls for all hell to be let loose and total rodeo to ensue...

 

[TwoForTwo]

My gelding (retired now) was very much the type that needed sending on, if allowed to look he was a total twat. My mare is scared of NOTHING! I don’t know if that’s because she was born wild on Dartmoor, her bravery is not always helpful as sometimes she wants to get really close and have look at things, the day she stuck her head in a mans wheelie bin to see what was in their was mortifying but not as bad as the day a man stopped to ask me for directions, she spotted he was eating and stuck her head through the window to steal his crisps!! ?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I can identify the following types of horses in dealing with spooks.

1. I need confidence given me by my rider.

Will often respond to a boot or a tap with the whip.

2. The fighter.

Will escalate into bucking and/or rearing if you try to force the issue.

3. I can't hear you.

Will shut down with its fingers firmly in its ears, and no amount of booting or hitting will do anything but make it shut down more. Might reach a point where it suddenly reacts and explodes.

4. The runner.

If pressured will suddenly run for it. May be past the danger or spin and away from it or high speed reverse. If prevented, may rear.


I currently own two runners, but I have had all types. Any others?

Skylla is an occasional stop, look, assess, move on type.

She is so independent, doesn’t join in with other horses nonsense of spooking or running, which is so refreshing. I think it could be an outcome of having Topaz as a cover ride when she was a baby ??, she learnt quickly that Topaz is bonkers and best ignored...

 

[Michen]

Skylla is an occasional stop, look, assess, move on type.

She is so independent, doesn’t join in with other horses nonsense of spooking or running, which is so refreshing. I think it could be an outcome of having Topaz as a cover ride when she was a baby ??, she learnt quickly that Topaz is bonkers and best ignored...

I think that’s what Bear is doing with Bog too ? the more Boggle dances around being an idiot the more Bear actively turns his head away looking into the distance with his ears pricked, humming along

 

[tristar]

One of my horses (Boggle) has experienced every aspect of life you could hope for. Lived on a farm, hunting, eventing, beaches, hacked down A roads, I can’t think of any “experience” box left untouched.

That has not meant we’ve avoided him being an absolute tit over an oddly shaped stone ?

but lumps of craggy irish granite are very different to english stones, (really), probably a case of culture shock