Spurs or no spurs?

[Mithras]

I had a good chuckle for the most reading the replies. It was like riffling the grandparents attic for their fragile sepia copies of Punch magazine, flashbacks of Thelwell's ponies and camp political indignation. You would've thought I had closed the ship yards! Sadly I also get the distinct and rather uncomfortable feeling most of those that replied should most definitely not be anywhere near a pair of spurs or even a pony for that matter..

Interesting set of cultural clichés, though not really of reference to the country I live in.

The excitement will die down very quickly amongst the punters but obviously it will take
commitment from the FEI but maybe even legislation is the answere if need be, Im not fussed. The sooner the better.

The only excitement here seems to be from you. There are no plans to legislate in terms of use of spurs in the UK or from a European directive - there is absolutely no EU intentions of harmonisation in this area whatsoever. The FEI does not have the power to legislate. It is irrelevant whether you are "fussed" or not.

I would definitely suggest a horse with a lot of TB in it, where you can use the waiting aids. These horses also take to learning the seat aids very very easily.

If you ride horses for a living (which I have done, at some top yards), you are expected to adapt to whatever horse you are on. Telling your employer you will be riding a type of horse more suited to you would make you a laughing stock! And unemployable. I found it helpful to work at top yards when I had the opportunity, and to learn from those who have a higher level of skill than me. You seem unaware of the existence of sharp full bred Irish Draughts, or sluggish TBs! Maybe you could try and see if you could get some yard experience in a yard in Ireland or somewhere?

Even the amateur rider has to adapt to different horses - it might take decades to find that perfect horse, and from what you suggest, the amount of wastage in amateurs rejecting horses that might not be quite right for them without ever giving it time to form a partnership would be horrific.

Another thing I find useful is to be open to new ideas and solutions and tailor them to the individual horse. ie treating the horse as an individual, not expecting the horse to adapt to you. This is one advantage smaller yards or your hated "amateur rider" sometimes have over the larger yards - I know many examples of horses which won virtually nothing in showjumping in bigger yards or who were written off as not even being worth going out to compete, which have excelled and become regular winners with those self same amateur riders.

I also think you treat your "amateur rider" as stupid and misguided at your peril. Many of them are anything but have simply because someone has chosen not to make a career in the notoriously unreliable equestrian field.

 

[tristar]

there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages' and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly

 

[Koen]

there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages' and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly

Yes...

There is obviously in some quarters a belief that the word amateur is also somehow derogatory? Could this have something to do with the racing industry?

 

[Koen]

Oh dear... I suspect you have never ridden a highly schooled horse which has sooo many "buttons" its scary. My horse wouldn't know what to do if i gave it a pony club kick, he'd probably throw a wobble and put me on the floor! why? because you have to be precise with him, there is a different spot of about an inch for collected trot vs medium vs extension, then if you happen to apply a fraction too much on one side he will transition up, shift your weight slightly or move the other leg a fraction and you'll have flying changes all over the place! But hey if you want to get the best out of my beautifully schooled ned without them feel free, although I expect he will either put you on the floor for annoying the hell out of him with nondescript aids, or go in to hack mode (don't ware them to hack him) which is Ill just doodle along thank you very much. oh and the whip, not needed for schooling, however on a hack he is half likely to stop or decide to go home, you don't have to touch him with it, in fact DONT touch him with it because that will spark a strop, simply show him it, and he will happily carry on as you wanted.

Random choice here but I didn't want everyone thinking I was being "rude" by ignoring the generally motley responses from the pro spur lobby that I seem to have elicited. I don't ever intend to be rude, it's a simple thought process.

Horses don't have "buttons". I wish people would stop using that word, I detest it. If yours does in fact have buttons it's been hopelessly and complicatedly trained to respond to "buttons". "A different spot of about an inch for for collected trot vs medium.........."

In the days when preferred dressage horses where generally (though there were the few outstanding exceptions, horses like Ahlerich ) heavy plough horses circus trick tactics were the norm as was the extremely heavy use of the spur. Legs pumping and jabbing was seen as acceptable, buttons all over the place like hard labouring steam engines. Far as Im concerned dressage horses today have gone way beyond the combustion engine, if anything and we go with the engineering "button" analogy we are in the digital age of control. Touch screens.

Shifting weight shifting legs not ideal its meant to be effortless. For passage I sit squarely and slightly deeper closing my legs softly being absolutely steady with soft hands, he comes up. No jab with the spur or at the correct buttons, no flapping with the lower leg! For extended trot I sit I relax some my fingers monetarily he opens up and I hold the extent I wish him to extend by its touch and feely then immediately adjusting my fingers.......

It's quite difficult explaining granted I understand that, so in my case if Im exaggerating my apologies. But why oh why all the marching and some in some cases flying riders legs for simple tempe changes! Not only that torso's flopping.....spurs raking up and down. When all you need to do is ask with alternative seat bones. Hips, seat, torso for all intensive purposes completely still but soft holding the tempo with gentle fingers. Like playing the piano, light varying pressure on the keys, fingers.

Maybe you guys aren't getting enough sex but refine the rutting process to barely perceivable movements and you have your most accurate and influential aids. And you don't see it because those aids are encased in the good old gluteus maximus.

Anyone know what the waiting aids are?

Spurs are a crutch. So is the double bridle, a horses mouth is a miracle of feeling. And why would you even try and do dressage on a horse with a dead mouth? Try something else like gentle hacking instead just as pleasurable.

 

[babymare]

wow as anyone explained to carl and charlotte how wrong they are riding. think they should be asking for lessons

 

[Luci07]

Amazing amount of drivel written on this post. Koen, you are keen to express your opinion, you don't actually support it by explaining what experience you have or what horses you ride. Your comment about TB blood would lead me to believe you are not widely experienced. My young TB x gelding is ridden with small spurs. My older TB x mare is not. I look at what works for my different horses and use it accordingly and a GOOD horseman will always review what works for their horses and what is comfortable for them. Every single piece of equipment that is put on or used on a horse has the potential to be harmful. It is up to us to ensure this is not the case.

 

[RachelBristol]

Maybe you guys aren't getting enough sex

Well that doesnt apply to me LOL

 

[RachelBristol]

Koen, you are keen to express your opinion, you don't actually support it by explaining what experience you have or what horses you ride.

I think Koen should post some lovely pics of these amassing horses being ridden

 

[JFTDWS]

Bridle. Your ideals are perhaps more suited to the bridal industry.

Best post ever.

 

[Koen]

Best post ever.

Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.

 

[Cortez]

You know, from reading all the drivel you've written, on this thread and others, I'm beginning to think you've never actually ridden a real horse. The negative scenarios you are describing do exist, unfortunately, but they are not the norm by any means, and the riding you are holding up as "the way" also does not, although you could misquote something like it from certain books - theory is easily trotted out; those of us who can actually do it learn to spot that kind of common aggrandizement on these internet forums. No one had been rude to you here, but you are consistently and aggressively baiting people in order to get a reaction. Go away, you are a troll.

 

[Cortez]

Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.

The accolade was not being awarded to YOU. Adorable Alice gets the rosette for being witty and to the point; that's most certainly not a feature of your posts.

 

[Bertieb123]

You know, from reading all the drivel you've written, on this thread and others, I'm beginning to think you've never actually ridden a real horse. The negative scenarios you are describing do exist, unfortunately, but they are not the norm by any means, and the riding you are holding up as "the way" also does not, although you could misquote something like it from certain books - theory is easily trotted out; those of us who can actually do it learn to spot that kind of common aggrandizement on these internet forums. No one had been rude to you here, but you are consistently and aggressively baiting people in order to get a reaction. Go away, you are a troll.

Agree, the thought of 'a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands' springs to mind, let alone the use of spurs etc in the wrong hands, I think most of us are intelligent enough to see through this idiot.

 

[Mithras]

I think probably best to be sympathetic to people like this. Although it is hard. Equine therapy can be very useful...

 

[s4sugar]

I think probably best to be sympathetic to people like this. Although it is hard. Equine therapy can be very useful...

<< Snort >>

 

[Koen]

Many of the reactionary responses here of course don't come as a great surprise. The reliance on spurs being so entrenched as they are, resistance to change can only be expected. For some Im just hoping the sun is indeed over the yardarm.


To bring this up to speed in my opinion governments and governing bodies ike the the FEI should ban the use of spurs.

It's an unnessesary tool that can and is being abused, even as I write these words. Thats enough for me and every single horse out there.

Force is not needed to train any animal. Pain is not a tool it's abuse no matter how slight, insidious or expertly applied.

I notice there is exactly the same incalcitrant resistance to the call for the ban of hooks to train elephants (sharp blunt or otherwise) governments in those countries should be doing more.

Horses allow us to train and ride them, is this not enough?

 

[Mickyjoe]

there's better places than ireland to gain experience, in my australian osteopath's opinion 'its like the dark ages' and joking apart it is infested with ragwort, sadly

Wow!! Almost as clueless as Koen there. Have you ever even been to Ireland?

 

[JFTDWS]

Thank you [blush] but I can't take all the credit for that. I have to at least partialy thank spell-check and the whole ipad team.

My ipad understands that bridle is a valid word and doesn't autocorrect it. Perhaps yours is in need of a software update - rather like yourself, I fear.

 

[amandap]

Horses don't have "buttons". I wish people would stop using that word, I detest it. If yours does in fact have buttons it's been hopelessly and complicatedly trained to respond to "buttons". "A different spot of about an inch for for collected trot vs medium.........."

In the days when preferred dressage horses where generally (though there were the few outstanding exceptions, horses like Ahlerich ) heavy plough horses circus trick tactics were the norm as was the extremely heavy use of the spur. Legs pumping and jabbing was seen as acceptable, buttons all over the place like hard labouring steam engines. Far as Im concerned dressage horses today have gone way beyond the combustion engine, if anything and we go with the engineering "button" analogy we are in the digital age of control. Touch screens.

Shifting weight shifting legs not ideal its meant to be effortless. For passage I sit squarely and slightly deeper closing my legs softly being absolutely steady with soft hands, he comes up. No jab with the spur or at the correct buttons, no flapping with the lower leg! For extended trot I sit I relax some my fingers monetarily he opens up and I hold the extent I wish him to extend by its touch and feely then immediately adjusting my fingers.......

It's quite difficult explaining granted I understand that, so in my case if Im exaggerating my apologies. But why oh why all the marching and some in some cases flying riders legs for simple tempe changes! Not only that torso's flopping.....spurs raking up and down. When all you need to do is ask with alternative seat bones. Hips, seat, torso for all intensive purposes completely still but soft holding the tempo with gentle fingers. Like playing the piano, light varying pressure on the keys, fingers.


Anyone know what the waiting aids are?

Spurs are a crutch. So is the double bridle, a horses mouth is a miracle of feeling. And why would you even try and do dressage on a horse with a dead mouth? Try something else like gentle hacking instead just as pleasurable.

I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.

Wait - tiny half halts
Weight - loaded seat bone, iron etc.

 

[Arizahn]

Please do not encourage them to visit Ireland. That is all I ask.

 

[tristar]

its pretty bad here in ireland, troytown clinic in kildare say they are putting down horses every day for owners who cannot afford to feed them, i am feeding two foals abandoned by their owner with no feed or water twice each day since before christmas, i am told that twice before the same people had horses on their land which died fom neglect, what can i say to 'encourage' them to not take on any more animals arizahn.?
yet still they keep churning them out, year after year

 

[maggiehorse]

I can't agree.

Spurs are totally unnecessary in my opinion.

I believe the rules that spurs are a mandatory requirement for example at the top levels of dressage a complete nonsense. The rules should be changed this is 2014 not the late Middle Ages. The opposite should be in place. Spurs should not be tolerated at all.

I cant agree "in the right hands etc" they simply don't belong anywhere near a horse.

I've never watched a dressage competition at the highest international level where I haven't seen spurs routinely abused. This doesn't mean bleeding sides or marks and gauges necessarily. Insidious, continuous use (contact) as an aid is abuse. Same in show jumping at international level. These are apparently "the right hands" ?

In the realms of the amateur rider this sanctioned abuse is widely copied but it honestly doesn't make any difference who is using them or what contrived reasons they have for using them. Their use is abuse.

A properly schooled, properly fed and fit horse should not need "artificial" aids of any kind. Fine tuning high energy feed for the job at hand and keeping a horse fit is the way, no short cuts at the horses expense.

If the horse or even the rider is not up to the job abusing the horse wont help. Understanding the horses character and working with not against it might be more ideal. Truly phlegmatic horses shouldn't be asked to do anything they aren't up for doing. Nor should riders be involved in an activity on a horse if they can't cope with a job that requires high energy.

As far as mentioned here having extremely short legs or being extremely light as a rider are not a reason to use spurs. An educated well schooled rider on a well schooled horse should have no problems with the rider using only seat and hand aids if need be. They should ride horses with more blood and feed accordingly, or accept their limitations.

Horses will move away from a whip and this is useful in training some youngsters, but it should never be used other than a light tap or gesture on or just behind the leg. Horses don't move away from spurs they cant see them to start with its only contact that will force the horse to move forward. It's also not at all constructive to use spurs instead of a whip as described above either on any horse to teach it to move away from the leg if it doesn't already by instinct.

I can't think of a single good use for spurs, only reasons why they should be banned outright.

yep bunny hugging drivel

 

[Koen]

I've hashed your post but I do think you have made some interesting points. I am not allowed an opinion on riding though as I don't post pics or even ride to a standard that requires passage etc. However it seems to me horses will respond to any cues they are trained to respond to! So, much tack may not be essential but training has evolved from/along with tack used initially for control, so other ways have rarely been considered an option. Also, fashion and the image produced is a big part in tack use I think.

I'd love to know what the "waiting aids" are.

Someone with an enquiring mind at least amongst the rabble. Hash first ask later seems to be a general attitude on internet forums, it's the anonymity Dutch courage it allows. Why the need I have no clue.

Being open is a very important state of mind in any discipline, though.

Thankfully many good riders are open to change, this has of course had positive benefits for the welfare of our horses over the years too, not only for success in the saddle. Contrary to what some readers might believe nothing is set in stone. I like to think of myself as open, and not just some of the time but all of the time. After all what we are doing today is never what we will be doing ten, twenty years hence, we advance hopefully.

As you say training methods evolve as has the use of tack.

Certainly there will always be areas where the current doesn't reach where the flotsam and jetsam accumulates and stagnation is a way of being. Strap on the old martingale stick on a curbed bit and a pair of spurs and you're all set for any days activity.

A particularly pertinent example on this topic of change was the recent and very unsuccessful transition of a top scoring dressage horse from one rider to another at the pinnacle of the combinations success. What ever one might have thought about training methods used to get the horse to the pinnacle of success under its first rider their riding styles were in sharp contrast to those "traditionally" held as appropriate under the second rider. The rapid decline in the horses abilities was the result.

This brought sharply into focus for many trainers and riders the change horses are going through themselves.

Horses bred today for example for dressage are bred with a greater and greater sensitivity and natural expression to be able to compete at the top level. Methods used for their training and riding have to evolve too. This doesn't happen by magic it has to be a conscious effort. You can't have a modern sport horse with an "old school" trained rider on board, there needs to be harmony and understanding along with the recognition that some riding styles and equipment are simply no longer appropriate. For me the mandatory requirement of riding with spurs is redundant.

The FEI should at least make this optional for a time along with eventually the double bridal. Neither being necessary IMO at any level.

Pictures. Pictures are a flash moment and dont always tell much other than the general way of going like outline, though videos are always useful IMO.
Of course you are allowed opinions without pictures! This is a forum where I think it's safe to assume a free exchange of ideas is encouraged.

The waiting aids wont be or even aren't I would say a great mystery to anyone having ridden horses with a lot of blood in them, they almost come spontaneously if not things are generally a bit of a disaster.
Im assuming a fair number of riders in the UK ride like this already, not in dressage though but certainly in some aspects of showing, eventing and show jumping. On the continent especially in Germany this isn't the case for most dressage riders it's not the taught method. Waiting aids are simply aids that are applied once and not applied again until you need a change transitioned with perhaps a barely perceptible half halt, soft hands and seat, supple back. No constant asking with the legs at every stride, for impulsion, instruction, bend and rhythm, usually accompanied with a very stiff rigid spine, deep seat and hands that are relatively speaking taking much greater weight.

Im not saying this is how everyone should ride or passing judgement on anyone who doesn't its just part of riding horses which are very much more sensitive than they used to be, the example being the case of the contemporary dressage sport horse. Spurs are superfluous at best and pain and angst inducing at worst. To be successfully ridden otherwise these horses have to be desensitised and forced into submission /discipline, not a happy horse. Sadly some of the most popular horses in the eyes of audiences and some judges have been horses in the latter category.

 

[Alec Swan]

Koen, with such a depth of knowledge, and practical experience, are we to assume that you ride at International level? Perhaps with such passion and such obvious experience, you teach, would I be right?

I don't ride, so Im not in a position to contradict you, but having owned and trained a dog or two, and having read of your claimed for canine experiences, I would wonder if you may just be allowing your imagination to run away with you.

Alec.

 

[Mithras]

Koen is just doing that bored Dutch male thing of being facetious and what passes for controversial to get attention. Its probably best ignored.

What I want to know is, are they a duifje or een schatje? At least the male version, as they claim to be. tbh sounds more like duifje to me.

 

[Hedwards]

I wear spurs (blunt) when i'm schooling my gelding, not for speed/impulsion, but because I want to refine my aids, he is a lazy ****** by nature, and so it saves me nagging him constantly with my leg, i can ask him to move away from my leg with very slight pressure from the spur. I dont wear them for jumping/hacking/xc etc. they work for me, and i will continue to use them. I've never done any damage to him.

Oh... and he's a blood horse, a thoroughbred (who has a history of stomach ulcers so i wouldnt dream of adding oats/racehorse mix to his diet!!!!)

 

[AdorableAlice]

Koen is just doing that bored Dutch male thing of being facetious and what passes for controversial to get attention. Its probably best ignored.

What I want to know is, are they a duifje or een schatje? At least the male version, as they claim to be. tbh sounds more like duifje to me.

I can't wait any longer, English please.

 

[slormesher]

Definatly all for spurs .... if used correctly!! Inexperienced riders who are yet to have lower leg control should stay away but experienced riders with the control and knowledge of why and how spurs are used should continue to use them. Horses skin is much thicker than ours so blunt spares and slight pressure only encourages not harms the horse. mis-use of them should be acknowledged but compared to the amount of people using spares and how many miss use them doesnt even compare. People who are so against them and claim for them to be horse welfare need to go back and research the use and purpose of spurs because they are clearly delooded and are completly missing the point!!

I ride my mare with spurs for all diciplines except hacking to encourage her and to apply the correct aid so i dont have to keep asking and making matters worse. I have never cut or grazed my horse and i plan on keeping it that way!!

 

[ribbons]

Koen, possibly your spell check taking over again but what the hell does "all intensive purposes" mean.
Are you trying to say " all intents and purposes"

I have a funny feeling you are doing a lot of quoting from things you've read.(not very well either)

It amuses me when people do this, thinking no one else has read the same things. Some of the things you've said are almost word for word, other people's opinions that they have put in print.

Carry on though, it's quite fun watching you trying to change a bit here and there to avoid detection, and then throwing in some absolute hilarious grammar and spelling blunders.