St. Nicholas Abbey

Mithras

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Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.

St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons. Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old. He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old. He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself. However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding. Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred". However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).
 

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Without any relevant experience of the likely influences of any stallions upon the genetic strengths, or otherwise, of today's TB, and considering that I suspect that with our advances in genetics and veterinary care, firstly that the pressures upon specifically the most precocious colts, will be far greater, and that as course records tumble on a fairly regular basis, I'm none too sure whether the industry's wringing out a dry sponge, or not.

However, for ever faster times to be achieved, and assuming that the previous poster is correct, as I'm sure that she is, then to have endured at least 3-5 years of intense training, would imply that the horse in question is probably as durable as one could expect. Considering the horse, as an animal, had he been backed and broken as a 4 yo, he probably wouldn't have been at any greater risk than any other horse.

For his pastern to shatter as comprehensively as it did, I'd also wonder if that would have been a soundness issue. I would think it far more likely to be an accident where a massive trauma was responsible, and not a weakness. I'd have thought that a genetic weakness would be more likely to result in tissue damage, as opposed to bone, am I wrong?

Alec.
 

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St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons. Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old. He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old. He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself. However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding. Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred". However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).

Very interesting, thank you. That makes perfect sense.
 

Mithras

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Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.

Mill Reef of course broke a pastern and was saved for stud, where he became a highly successful sire and sire of sires. But the ND blood does seem to be more potent in that it delivers what the racing industry currently wants more frequently.

Didn't it used to be said that the Godolphin Arab male line was the best? But that it is slightly later maturing, and along with the Byerely Turk line, is in real danger of dying out. I always think its a pity there are no efforts to save these male lines for the future of the TB racehorse. Can anyone think of any remants? Godolphin is represented by Ahonoora - Indian Ridge etc and Byerly Turk I can only think of In Reality descended horses like the 2000 Guineas winner Known Fact, but that was a while ago now. I might have got those two mixed up! There are of course far more female "families" than the 3 male lines, so the breed is not as inbred as male line only would suggest.

Anyway, good luck to St Nicholas Abbey and I hope he is saved for stud or at least retirement, as he really was an exceptionally durable horse. Galloping horses regularly stresses all horses, inc eventers.
 

gadetra

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St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons. Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old. He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old. He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself. However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding. Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred". However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).

Mill Reef of course broke a pastern and was saved for stud, where he became a highly successful sire and sire of sires. But the ND blood does seem to be more potent in that it delivers what the racing industry currently wants more frequently.

Didn't it used to be said that the Godolphin Arab male line was the best? But that it is slightly later maturing, and along with the Byerely Turk line, is in real danger of dying out. I always think its a pity there are no efforts to save these male lines for the future of the TB racehorse. Can anyone think of any remants? Godolphin is represented by Ahonoora - Indian Ridge etc and Byerly Turk I can only think of In Reality descended horses like the 2000 Guineas winner Known Fact, but that was a while ago now. I might have got those two mixed up! There are of course far more female "families" than the 3 male lines, so the breed is not as inbred as male line only would suggest.

Anyway, good luck to St Nicholas Abbey and I hope he is saved for stud or at least retirement, as he really was an exceptionally durable horse. Galloping horses regularly stresses all horses, inc eventers.


Very informative and interesting. I am not a TB head, this gives much food for thought.

Ps I agree re Danzig. The few I have seen have nothing to recommend themselves with. He appears in a couple of sporthorse TB sires I avoid like the plague.

I suppose the ultimate problem is the obsession with precocity, early speed. It would appear more prevalent in America than Europe, but is becoming pervasive.

It's not one of St Nicolas Abbey's problems though. On the Coolmore site, I can only see the video they made after his surgery, no further updates. Am I missing something?
 

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The NH bred TB is a rarity these days. Many of the horses, especially at lower levels, running over fences are flat bred and are weeds. I stood in the paddock at Hereford in the spring and 80% of the horses were tiny light boned types and certainly not bred for the purpose of getting 3 miles over fences. The horses were the waste from the flat I suppose and that heads us into a whole different subject !

All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
 
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All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
Well there were & still are some jumping likes. Where mares specialise in producing strong staying stallions for store horses. some of these mares were from none thoroughbred "Half Bred" from Mrs Prior's none thoroughbred stud book. Some of them had Irish draught way back & were of more substance than flat bred horses, they were selected for soundness & good bone, as of course were the specialist jumping stallions. There were of course always horses who hadn't been successful on the flat, or who had become unfashionable. Horses like Cottage, Escart & Vulgan proved successful. Some failed flat racing sires like Airborne, the 1946 Derby & St Leger winner & Black Tarquin the 1948 St Leger winner also; Black Tarquin was big with good bone & sired impressive jumpers.
What Millikins is referring to is the increase in flat cast offs going over jumps. There are less store horses, as there are less of the right mares & more crucially, less money to spend the time raising them.
 

Mithras

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Thanks both Louise12 and Honeylight. I'm not as up to date as I used to be! Its good to hear that the other two tail mail lines are still just hanging on. I'm really surprised there is not some kind of movement by someone in TB breeding to preserve those two lines, for future diversity if nothing else.
 

Louise12

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Thanks both Louise12 and Honeylight. I'm not as up to date as I used to be! Its good to hear that the other two tail mail lines are still just hanging on. I'm really surprised there is not some kind of movement by someone in TB breeding to preserve those two lines, for future diversity if nothing else.

Well unfortunately this is where the destructive effect of marketing comes in. As you can see on here and elsewhere, people firmly believe that the Northern Dancer (and particularly Sadler's Wells) line is invincible and nothing else will do
 

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It is a shame that breeding the NH type seems to have been sidelined behind getting ex-flat horses for speed that may be able to jump enough. These lovely big boned chaser types are brilliant, but too few people have the patience for them to mature. A few years ago the soundness issue was discussed on C4 racing, & I emailed in an article from 50 years earlier which predicted that this would happen due to the restricted gene pool (though they had no way of predicting how much it would shrink due to marketing, huge stallion books & the desire for a few specific lines). It actually suggested reinfusing the breed with some new arab blood. I'm not talking about the matchstick legged, banana faced with breathing issues that you see all to often in the ih-hand ring (often because they are so off their heads no-one would want to sit on them), but how about thoses with old breeding? I've mentioned before I'm involved with Crabbet arabs, which are linked to general stud book (registered roughly by turn 1900) & old english (registered pre WW2) lines. These are all true desert arab war horse types, athletic (excell in endurance), tough, sane, & sound! Feet like rock, excellent bone density, powerful athletes. It would take a few generations, but a little mingling of this blood (which after all is what TB came from & ows its athletic abilities too) could revitalise it. I know it would never happen, breeders wouldn't take the chance because first few generations would be too anglo for them. Wouldn't it be wonderful though if there was a serious breeder with foresight to try.

We are working with a muchsmaller gene pool, but work hard to find fresh lines, such as those that were exported to Australia & USA 100 years ago & left no decendants in UK. Yes every so often a stallion crops up that is more popular than average (was Imad, now Prince Sadik), but they don't get the lions share of mares.
 
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Louise12

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Louise12, in case you were meaning what I'd written, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between refuting the soundness of ND and offspring, and claiming they're "invincible and nothing else will do".

If it wasn't directed me, then I apologise!

Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.
 

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All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.


and they are getting weedier by the day. I am old enough to remember the type of horse that David Nicholson, Jenny Pitman etc trained. Proper big TB's with bone and depth, where are they today.
 

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Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.

^^^^^^^So very true. It all comes back to business and money. And setting up a proper, rigorous scientific program to test the soundness of ND lines is too expensive, and hampered by significantly wealthy vested interests to happen. The level of inbreeding will reach a tipping point, I believe, where it will become too expensive to keep an animal right to race. Or maybe it will go like most things, and end up with only the very very wealthy owning/breeding/racing and everyone else working for them, so diversity is never questioned as long as results are achieved at any cost, so it may not become an issue. The small/medium sized breeder will disappear completely in that scenario. Jesus that can never be let happen!

I think your system is the only way around. Let me know when your stock get to the racecourse, I will cheer them on :wink3:
 

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and they are getting weedier by the day. I am old enough to remember the type of horse that David Nicholson, Jenny Pitman etc trained. Proper big TB's with bone and depth, where are they today.

i agree. i have 2 ex racers myself but they are typical old fasioned steeple chasers in their looks and movement! flat racers are impressive but personally i find them to dainty looking. we need more big proper NH horses!
 

Louise12

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Thank you Gadetra, that's really nice of you. The problem we have in Ireland is that it is getting harder and harder to find the right sort of stallions. The small studs with the quirky little blood lines have all but disappeared, and many people have jumped on the Sadler's Wells band wagon in an effort to keep custom. The types of horse AdorableAlice and Dreamer515 talk about are getting wiped out. Where do you think wispy little St Nick will end up if he is a failure as a flat stallion?
 

gadetra

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Thank you Gadetra, that's really nice of you. The problem we have in Ireland is that it is getting harder and harder to find the right sort of stallions. The small studs with the quirky little blood lines have all but disappeared, and many people have jumped on the Sadler's Wells band wagon in an effort to keep custom. The types of horse AdorableAlice and Dreamer515 talk about are getting wiped out. Where do you think wispy little St Nick will end up if he is a failure as a flat stallion?

Yep completely agree. I really can't find a marketable solution though. Breeders are extra cautious mow with the whole recession thing (those that survived it) so are going for what's going to give them the biggest returns at the sales, fast maturing, flashy fine flat types ND line animals. ND is nothing if not proven, but given the numbers involved it would be difficult not to be.
What doesn't make money is big, rangy, slow maturing, strong boned substantial NH types. They are almost extinct here. So sad. Some strong enough mares still around but dying out. It'll get to the bringing sand to the Sahara stage yet.
Also what do you think of the influx of French breds in NH in recent years? I think this also has something to do with the decline in traditional NH types. They mature so much quicker but don't seem to last as long. Is this right? I may well be talking out of my arse but it us something I have noticed. Be interested in an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about!
 

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Yep completely agree. I really can't find a marketable solution though. Breeders are extra cautious mow with the whole recession thing (those that survived it) so are going for what's going to give them the biggest returns at the sales, fast maturing, flashy fine flat types ND line animals. ND is nothing if not proven, but given the numbers involved it would be difficult not to be.
What doesn't make money is big, rangy, slow maturing, strong boned substantial NH types. They are almost extinct here. So sad. Some strong enough mares still around but dying out. It'll get to the bringing sand to the Sahara stage yet.
Also what do you think of the influx of French breds in NH in recent years? I think this also has something to do with the decline in traditional NH types. They mature so much quicker but don't seem to last as long. Is this right? I may well be talking out of my arse but it us something I have noticed. Be interested in an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about!
The French horses are not as inbred & a large number of them are Selle Francais rather than pure bred thoroughbred, this might make them tougher. I think quite a lot of them have had long careers, some of the training methods might have soured others though.
Interestingly many of the most successful stallions in the NH sphere in the recent past have been French bred; Manicou, Escart III, Vulgan & Cantab, spring to mind, so it is not a new thing. In the past the French were less concerned with speed than the British, however they have shortened their Derby, so that is not a good thing.

In my earlier post I didn't say ND horses were necessarily unsound (though he does carry Native Dancer too), but the rabid inbreeding to such a line has long term dangers for the breed. ND has been such an influence that half the thoroughbred population are bright bay with white socks & silver tails! The big problem is there are no tough lines to out cross to any more. Take a 1970s stallion book & compare it to today's & you will see what I mean.

Someone mentioned the size & substance of what is available for NH breeders. I remember John Dunlop saying on a TV interview that Millenary the ST Leger winner was being kept in training as he was too small for an NH stallion & not commercially viable for the flat. Take a look at the Weatherby's NH stallion book & who is there? Millenary! Well someone who has trained a horse should be aware of it's suitability for breeding a.certain type.
 

Caledonia

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Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.

Thanks Louise12.

In fairness, even the allowed US medication wouldn't keep a horse sound enough for those sort of figures tho!

As a general response to the rest of the thread, I understand to a degree the concerns over diversity. However the current racing population is mainly descended from just three significant stallions who were necessarily interbreeding within a tiny gene pool at the time. ND's impact is diluted by a far greater pool of horses than those initial three had access to, so I don't really see why ND's influence is considered a problem. He is a sum of his parents, and both his grandsire, Nearco, and his grand damsire, Hyperion, are in more pedigrees than he is.

Two of the strongest NH sires of the last few years have those influences, without ND. They both are in Strong Gale's 4 generation pedigree, and Hyperion is within 4 generations of Roselier.

Via the Coolmore influence there are clearly a great amount of ND bloodlines in the UK and Ireland as previously discussed. But the situation is similar in France too.

So whilst I am agreeing about the influence of that line, I wholeheartedly disagree about the soundness of ensuing generations being compromised because of it.

One of the top jumps sire in France for a long time, Green Dancer, is a grandson of ND. He is the sire of Cadoudal (Big Buck's, Long Run, Fadalko, Lacdoudal), the damsire of Kalanisi (Katchit, Barizan).

There are a lot of French sires with ND in their pedigrees that have consistent winners in the jumps field (as well as some G1 on the flat) - Assessor, Kahyasi, Montjeu, Hernando, Passing Sale (Mon Mome), Montelimar (Hedgehunter) etc.

Interestingly, several of the French stallions without ND have the Never Bend lineage dominant. Which takes us back to Nearco again.

It's soundness and ability that have determined the direction breeding took, nothing else. Yes, there are fashionable stallions, and many new stallions are overpriced and overhyped, but that very quickly stops if the progeny are slow.

Racing over hurdles and fences is still ultimately about speed, even though a modicum of talent to leave the ground is important. The fastest horse mostly wins the race. Also, longevity in NH horses is in the main important, so that is considered too. No trainer is going to want to buy a horse that will knowingly break down. Just because NH horses don't look the same big boned raw types of previous years, it's not to say that they are more fragile. Bone density is not measured by size. Arabs are considered very tough, that's partly why they are incredibly successful at endurance, but you couldn't ever call them big-boned.

Many horses are lighter framed nowadays, but is that necessarily a bad thing? But to play devil's advocate, and it's just a thought - what's to say that it was maybe harder on horses in the past because of their size?

The whole discussion is fascinating, but far more complicated than just the influence of one stallion being responsible for all that's wrong with the breeding.
 

Louise12

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The problem with NH racing these days is that owners no longer have the patience to wait for the big, late maturing types. It's not that the smaller types are tougher, or even as tough, but they don't need to be. In these ridiculous times we live in a horse can win the Cheltenham bumper and be a grade 1 NH winner without ever leaving the ground. I can't agree with the comment about jumping ability not being important
 

Caledonia

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The problem with NH racing these days is that owners no longer have the patience to wait for the big, late maturing types. It's not that the smaller types are tougher, or even as tough, but they don't need to be. In these ridiculous times we live in a horse can win the Cheltenham bumper and be a grade 1 NH winner without ever leaving the ground. I can't agree with the comment about jumping ability not being important

That's a sweeping generalisation about not waiting. Starting horses off in PTPs in Ireland is still a route followed by a lot of Irish horses. Denman got thro the ranks that way. If the big horses are good enough they win. Racing has evolved from the way it used to be run for various reasons, and the flat and jumps are far more interlinked than before. Dual purpose trainers used to be a rarity, and now they are relatively common. I think it's better for horses that there is a crossover. It offers more options for more horses.
I don't follow that is it ridiculous that the Chelts bumper is a Gr 1. It's the end of a campaign in its own right, the first step for horses that are going to pursue a career in jumping. There's no reason for them not to have recognition. Plenty decent horses have begun their careers winning the bumper in March.

I didn't say jumping ability was unimportant, but within jump racing it is unquestionably secondary to speed. Slow horses, however beautifully they jump rarely win races. Indeed, horses that jump too well tend to be slow thro the air. Istabraq, Hurricane Fly, Viking Flagship are the ones that spring to mind as being fast and slick over a fence. Then you have horses like Sprinter Sacre who can do both perfectly. That's where the heroes start!
 

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Your post sums up why we will never agree - I would run all bumpers outside the rules of racing as schooling-only races, and don't consider the likes of Hurricane Fly or Istabraq true jumpers until they win a novice chase! It's great to hear all sides
 

Caledonia

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Your post sums up why we will never agree - I would run all bumpers outside the rules of racing as schooling-only races, and don't consider the likes of Hurricane Fly or Istabraq true jumpers until they win a novice chase! It's great to hear all sides

So you only really class chasing as NH then? No wonder we disagree about the jumping! Although I did mention SS and VK! :p:D
 

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My TB is a 'good old fashioned type'. When I took him in hand showing he didn't get placed higher than 5th. I noticed the judges always picked the flashier, daintier types. One judge asked about his breeding and I said 'he's an ex hurdler by Generous.' She made some remark about him not being one of the more fashionable stallions. I guess judges and those in racing don't like that type.
 

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My TB is a 'good old fashioned type'. When I took him in hand showing he didn't get placed higher than 5th. I noticed the judges always picked the flashier, daintier types. One judge asked about his breeding and I said 'he's an ex hurdler by Generous.' She made some remark about him not being one of the more fashionable stallions. I guess judges and those in racing don't like that type.


Hmm I much prefer the old fashioned type! Much more my style. I hate the greyhound look, but ultimately it comes down to what crosses the line first and makes the most money (more importantly!) and the downhill, flashy, light boned and framed animal has a tendency to do that a lot now! I am with others with the lack of type left in NH animals. It is a big big problem for us sporthorse breeders too. At one of the first racehorse to riding horse classes in Dublin War of Attrition won it. Super stamp of a horse, middleweight really. I seen him run as a 4 year old in Fairyhouse and he looked impressive but not being a TB person I had no idea he would turn out so good, I did not know what I was looking at! Poor old Colonel Rayburn was last, god there's a big, hefty, ugly horse-but I loved him! He didn't settle at all, sweated up and pranced around! He was like rather camel like but then who cares what he looks like when you see what he did on the track (I wouldn't have picked him out as a young one that's for sure! ).
 

DonkeyClub

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The racehorses that have broken down in & died in racing like eight belles, barbaro, ruffian etc carried many in crosses to native dancer- which is a very weak and unsound line to be inbred to. People were actually able to predict these horses deaths before they died..
St Nicholas only seems to have native dancer once very far back in his pedigree, so in this case genetics was not the cause.
 

Mithras

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It is a shame that breeding the NH type seems to have been sidelined behind getting ex-flat horses for speed that may be able to jump enough. These lovely big boned chaser types are brilliant, but too few people have the patience for them to mature. A few years ago the soundness issue was discussed on C4 racing, & I emailed in an article from 50 years earlier which predicted that this would happen due to the restricted gene pool (though they had no way of predicting how much it would shrink due to marketing, huge stallion books & the desire for a few specific lines). It actually suggested reinfusing the breed with some new arab blood. I'm not talking about the matchstick legged, banana faced with breathing issues that you see all to often in the ih-hand ring (often because they are so off their heads no-one would want to sit on them), but how about thoses with old breeding? I've mentioned before I'm involved with Crabbet arabs, which are linked to general stud book (registered roughly by turn 1900) & old english (registered pre WW2) lines. These are all true desert arab war horse types, athletic (excell in endurance), tough, sane, & sound! Feet like rock, excellent bone density, powerful athletes. It would take a few generations, but a little mingling of this blood (which after all is what TB came from & ows its athletic abilities too) could revitalise it. I know it would never happen, breeders wouldn't take the chance because first few generations would be too anglo for them. Wouldn't it be wonderful though if there was a serious breeder with foresight to try.

We are working with a muchsmaller gene pool, but work hard to find fresh lines, such as those that were exported to Australia & USA 100 years ago & left no decendants in UK. Yes every so often a stallion crops up that is more popular than average (was Imad, now Prince Sadik), but they don't get the lions share of mares.

In recent years, German breeding has really come to the fore. Previously it was considered unfashionable, despite producing such successful racehorses and sires such as Star Appeal (and the dam of Slip Anchor), but the Germans have concentrated on soundness, good conformation and durability, often at the expense of the quick maturing types which have seen a fast return for pinhookers and breeders backing unproven stallions looking for the next big thing. In fact, we've seen much more international breeding in successful pedigrees in recent years, which is an interesting trend.

And the obsession with black type and pattern races has coincided with the move towards even more inbreeding to fashionable sires and families. It does sort of encourage it - it is a statistician's dream. As does the quicker return provided by yet more fast maturing two year olds, sprinters and milers. What the French have done - reducing the length of their Derby - is a nightmare. Do we want to end up with Quarter Horses eventually?!

As for outcrossing - why only Arabs? The TB is a product also of English hunter mares, so why not bring in Cleveland Bays, and some of the better types of warmblood? But we've probably not reached that stage yet. And you would need special prizes perhaps to encourage it. I do wish though that some breeders would try to preserve the Godlophin and Byerley Turk male lines.
 
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