St. Nicholas Abbey

The French have been crossing with Selle Francais horses to make some tougher jumpers. Whilst a lot of these horses took off and everyone wanted a piece of them a few years ago, even the French are now taking flat horses jumping and so the trend of daintier continues.

Something needs done to put some more substance back into these horses but until you find someone brave enough with the time, money and patience to do the right crosses you will be fighting a losing battle. Plus these horses would naturally be slower and thus less desirable because they won't be winning. You might get a good one but they would be few and far between. And so the dainty trend continues!
 
EKW said:
Something needs done to put some more substance back into these horses but until you find someone brave enough with the time, money and patience to do the right crosses you will be fighting a losing battle. Plus these horses would naturally be slower and thus less desirable because they won't be winning. You might get a good one but they would be few and far between. And so the dainty trend continues!
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Won’t be winning early in their career all right (I think that is what you imply). I bet they would win the 3 mile chases – problem is they may be on the scrap heap by then because you need to wait and persist. Although it’s obvious that the horse that gets from A to B the fastest wins the race, I can’t have it that jump racing is JUST about speed. If that were the case then Hurricane Fly would have been aimed at the Gold Cup (Champion Chase perhaps in his case), as would Big Buck’s. They stay hurdling because of their limitations, not their superiority. Back to Caledonia's question, I think the pinnacle of NH racing is the Gold Cup, and the aim should always be chasing. I can respect good hurdlers without really warming to them, and bumper winners I disregard until they show more. The problem I really have with the black type bumpers is the effect on breeding - mares with black type on the page that haven't even proved their ability to jump and stay. I would like to think that NH breeders try to breed a chaser, but recent trends show a move towards breeding horses that win early (hence a lot of bumper winners that don't train on beyond novice hurdles). It's a slippery slope, and I do think the ND line is a part of that. I suppose my main point is that the ND line's success is beyond dispute, but it is always good to question it and try and look beyond it - it's not in danger after all... so a bit of querying it is no bad thing, and back to St Nick, well perhaps it's time we thought twice about using unsound horses as sires, unless there is overriding evidence that they are a better option than a sound alternative. I don't know what the exact criteria are in Germany (already mentioned by another poster), but they do have some soundness rules for stallions, and we do seem to be seeing the fruits of that
 
Really interesting post Louise12. Do you know any of the criteria for the soundness rules for stallions? That is a really good plan by the Germans. Bet it would never catch on here though.
 
Although he looks thin, in his condition I'd rather see that, less weight on his leg. Added bonus is that he does eat up, and won't take long to get rounder.. surely?
 
claracanter said:
Really interesting post Louise12. Do you know any of the criteria for the soundness rules for stallions? That is a really good plan by the Germans. Bet it would never catch on here though.
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I'm afraid I don't Claracanter - I have looked for them, but have only ever found vague reference to the fact that they must have raced to a certain level and retired sound. Surely we have a German native on here somewhere, or someone familiar with German breeding?
 
Louise12 said:
Won’t be winning early in their career all right (I think that is what you imply). I bet they would win the 3 mile chases – problem is they may be on the scrap heap by then because you need to wait and persist. Although it’s obvious that the horse that gets from A to B the fastest wins the race, I can’t have it that jump racing is JUST about speed. If that were the case then Hurricane Fly would have been aimed at the Gold Cup (Champion Chase perhaps in his case), as would Big Buck’s. They stay hurdling because of their limitations, not their superiority. Back to Caledonia's question, I think the pinnacle of NH racing is the Gold Cup, and the aim should always be chasing. I can respect good hurdlers without really warming to them, and bumper winners I disregard until they show more. The problem I really have with the black type bumpers is the effect on breeding - mares with black type on the page that haven't even proved their ability to jump and stay. I would like to think that NH breeders try to breed a chaser, but recent trends show a move towards breeding horses that win early (hence a lot of bumper winners that don't train on beyond novice hurdles). It's a slippery slope, and I do think the ND line is a part of that. I suppose my main point is that the ND line's success is beyond dispute, but it is always good to question it and try and look beyond it - it's not in danger after all... so a bit of querying it is no bad thing, and back to St Nick, well perhaps it's time we thought twice about using unsound horses as sires, unless there is overriding evidence that they are a better option than a sound alternative. I don't know what the exact criteria are in Germany (already mentioned by another poster), but they do have some soundness rules for stallions, and we do seem to be seeing the fruits of that
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Nobody is saying jump racing is JUST about speed. But jumping is not the criteria for winning races, otherwise we'd be running warmbloods! Jumpers have to get across the fence/hurdle as quickly as possible, but if they do it at 3mph slower than anyone else, they won't win. It's why it's called horseracing! :)

I don't understand why you won't comfortably accept that NH has three divisions - bumpers, hurdlers and chasers. The Gold Cup is the accepted pinnacle of chasing, although that in itself has some sections of racing questioning that mantle. Many believe the 2m chasers arguably are more talented because of the speed they jump at, and that the KG is the real judge of the best chaser in training. Some less that classy horses have won a GC, but they rarely win a KG.

Your original point that I disagreed with about bumpers was that there shouldn't be a championship bumper - look back at the horses that have won within the last 20 years - you cannot argue that there are no champions there!

http://cheltenham-festival.betting-directory.com/champion-bumper-winners.php

Surely a champion horse is one that can win at all three stages?

FWIW, much of the French blood input is TB or AA, it's just not TB as recognised in the UK. Selle Francaise just means riding horse, and it encompasses all shapes and types, TB included. If you look back thro the SF pedigrees in racing, they are mostly TB lines, possibly mixed with AA.

The Fly is too small to go chasing, and really why should he? He's mopped up the hurdling division much the way horses have done for decades. Historically hurdlers jump differently to chasers, they need to be slicker and faster through the air. But they still need to have some ability to leave the ground. Big Buck's went back hurdling because PN had both Kauto and Denman for the GC, and there was little or no chance of him taking either of them on and beating them, given he didn't jump as well.

I'm not sure there's much to worry about with NH.
 
To go back to St Nicholas Abbey....I don't think his injury was caused by his breeding immediately any more than Mill Reef's was, it was just one of those catastrophic injuries to effect a horse in training. Mill Reef had long pasterns & that is why Mellon sent him to the Uk to be trained, as it was thought when examined as a yearling he wouldn't stand training on dirt. As far as I know, his stock haven't had a more than normal breakage of limbs.
Never Say Die on the other hand was a very sound horse, who after a good start at the stud, got a lot of horses with weak bones & became unpopular with breeders...& of course he did get stayers. So nothing is cut & dried.
What I am concerned about is the increasing lack of any horses with out a line of ND & those who duplicate him & Native Dancer with the ND Mr Prospector nick. The decimation of the two other sire lines is also very sad & a worry. Because every thing is so financially orientated today & most of the small owner breeders have gone, I can't see a solution.
 
Can I just point out that St Nicholas Abbey is really not an example of an unsound horse - he has won the Coronation Cup three times over a mile and a half at Epsom, and raced at the top level ie Group 1 company for 5 seasons. To put this in perspective, that is more than double the racing Frankel did, and over longer distances, and far more than Mill Reef. St Nicholas Abbey is not at all what anyone would classify as an unsound horse.
 
Does anyone have any further news of the horse? I've looked on their website News section, and he hasn't been mentioned. It's getting on for a month since his set back, and I'm just wondering how he is.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Does anyone have any further news of the horse? I've looked on their website News section, and he hasn't been mentioned. It's getting on for a month since his set back, and I'm just wondering how he is.

Alec.
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Thought the same Alec, but like you haven't heard or read anything of late.
 
Waiting for news here too. I'd hate him to go the same way as Barbaro. Although they say ' no news is good news' , I think we would have heard if he was out of the woods. Get Well Soon Boy
 
I've just sent Coolmore an e/mail, to enquire as to how the horse fares, but as they've probably been asked the same question by media journalists, and declined to answer, so I suspect, that I may not succeed. If I get an answer, I'll let you know!

Alec.
 
I really hoped he'd have turned that corner by now. At least he is the best possible hands, I do hope he makes a recovery. Fingers crossed for him.
 
Dobiegirl, thanks for the update.

I have a horrible feeling that with talk of pedal bone-support damage, that all is not well, and that the laminitis is actually progressing. I hope that I'm wrong.

Alec.
 
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