Steve young training a dog

[Thundering]

Just can not understand why there are hundreds of comments saying how fantastic he is at dog training! Can people not see? Do they remove negative comments? He may be a good horse trainer but he really needs to keep away from dogs. I thought horse people were supposed to be sensible! How can they not see that poor dog is really scared.
He is simply manhandling it. Really really bad. Has he not heard of positive reinforcement? People must be wearing blinkers!

 

[Clodagh]

Just can not understand why there are hundreds of comments saying how fantastic he is at dog training! Can people not see? Do they remove negative comments? He may be a good horse trainer but he really needs to keep away from dogs. I thought horse people were supposed to be sensible! How can they not see that poor dog is really scared.
He is simply manhandling it. Really really bad. Has he not heard of positive reinforcement? People must be wearing blinkers!

I think there’s plenty of horse people who bully horses. And tbh we are used to using physical methods to control them. Whips, spurs, bits, cranks etc. so perhaps people easily transfer that dominance type training to dogs?

 

[Thundering]

I think there’s plenty of horse people who bully horses. And tbh we are used to using physical methods to control them. Whips, spurs, bits, cranks etc. so perhaps people easily transfer that dominance type training to dogs?

Yes, I guess you are right there. Although he makes a show out of making things the horses idea, and not using pain. Having just been watching some of his videos he does seem to have some good results with horses but I am not 100% about some of his methods. Dominance type training with dogs is out dated and the dominance theory has been disproved some time ago now. Not to say people do not still use it. It just makes me really upset that people are telling him how fantastic he is at dog training and people will copy him. In his videos he does not like horse mouths shut tight with flashes etc but hes happy to terrify a dog? I think its pure ignorance but it looks like he is going down the route of making money more important than anything.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I stopped going to large official group training as the dogs were all so sad, no eye contact, shut down. Surely it’s meant to be fun for them too?

Controversial but I find people (older...men) who have crossed over from gundog training completely uncoachable.
'But we always did it this way/but my spaniel did XYZ yada yada yada'.
Very into over-training a routine the day before a competition and being completely shocked when the dog is flat as a pancake in the trial.
'BUT IT WAS PERFECT YESTERDAY'.
Yes, the first two times but by four and five they were a bit tired and now you've done it for no reward at all and they're completely bolloxed.

 

[stangs]

so perhaps people easily transfer that dominance type training to dogs?

Was dominance type training not established first with dogs and only later used explicitly with horses?

Dominance theory itself was developed based of captive wolves after all, so I would have thought dogs would be the first application of it.

 

[Clodagh]

Was dominance type training not established first with dogs and only later used explicitly with horses?

Dominance theory itself was developed based of captive wolves after all, so I would have thought dogs would be the first application of it.

I really don’t know the science of it with horses. But most people would expect a horse to defer to them?

 

[Sandstone1]

Was dominance type training not established first with dogs and only later used explicitly with horses?

Dominance theory itself was developed based of captive wolves after all, so I would have thought dogs would be the first application of it.

Yes it was developed based on wolves but disproved because dogs are not wolves and domesticated dogs are about as far removed from wolves as we are from cavemen.
Clearly to live and work with us both dogs and horses have to live by rules. However how you get there is the point, Neither animal should be scared of you. There is a lot of science behind it all and horses and dogs are very different. Dominance based training using methods like the alpha roll etc is outdated but there are some trainers that still use it. Positive reinforcement is really the way to go. This trainer though really has no idea and the fact that so many people are telling him he is marvellous is very sad.

 

[stangs]

I really don’t know the science of it with horses. But most people would expect a horse to defer to them?

True, people have always expected, needed really, animals to be submissive/obedient - so 'dominance' has always existed in that way. However, in the modern day, dominance-based training imo tends to invoke the notion that we're using their 'natural' hierarchy/behaviour to become the 'alpha'. We're not just the boss, we're aiming to be the herd/pack leader. That's only really existed with horses since NH afaik, excluding some dominance studies in the 60s(?)-ish.

I don't know much about the history of dog training so wouldn't be able to compare.

Yes it was developed based on wolves but disproved because dogs are not wolves and domesticated dogs are about as far removed from wolves as we are from cavemen.

and not just because wolves aren't dogs, but also because captive wolves will exhibit behaviours far removed behaviours from that of wild wolves

 

[Fellewell]

It's a bit labour intensive for heelwork and the dog's focus is totally elsewhere. I don't see fear, the dog is surprised by his constant placing. The dog offers a few submissive behaviours but don't be fooled, spaniels, like collies, are quick to read the room and the dog immediately resets and locks on to something/anything else when he moves away. He even made the rookie mistake of achieving a loose lead by walking at the dog's pace, though he's clearly not a rookie.
I think dog trainers are between a rock and a hard place, they want to help but are constantly considering how the armchair critics will receive it. I watched a programme recently with a good trainer who was dealing with a dog which mouthed its lead. As he sat pondering on what would be acceptable to the viewers and just as I shouted " hands!!" at the screen he got nipped. The dog was then seen in a muzzle on its walks. If trainers are ignoring instinct in favour of PR I'm not surprised that there are accidents.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think dog trainers should know what avoidance behaviour and displacement behaviour mean

 

[skinnydipper]

I don't see fear, the dog is surprised by his constant placing.

You've got to be kidding, right?

You missed the shake off, lip lick, clamped tail. Probably more but I didn't watch from start to finish.

The dog offers a few submissive behaviours but don't be fooled,

You think the dog is acting?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Doesn't your dog have an Equity card?!

 

[Sandstone1]

Thats on a par with people saying " He knows hes done wrong, look at him" when they come home and see the dog has pooed on the floor or chewed the sofa. Dogs read our body language so well. Its a shame we dont read theirs as well!

 

[Sandstone1]

You've got to be kidding, right?

You missed the shake off, lip lick, clamped tail. Probably more but I didn't watch from start to finish.



You think the dog is acting?

And thats what we are dealing with with his followers on Facebook.

 

[skinnydipper]

He bullied that dog, there's no getting away from it. He did it because he could. It's a wonder she didn't shut down. What's really sad is that the owner allowed it.

 

[Sandstone1]

He bullied that dog, there's no getting away from it. He did it because he could. It's a wonder she didn't shut down. What's really sad is that the owner allowed it.

Yes, I agree 100% but he is being told on Facebook hes a fantastic dog trainer and should do more of it. I really despair sometimes. I did think he was great with horses but I am beginning to wonder what else goes on now. The worst thing is they can not see whats so wrong with the way he handled it.

 

[skinnydipper]

Doesn't your dog have an Equity card?!

Just when you think you've heard it all, eh?

 

[skinnydipper]

I've just watched more of this video, sound off.

Some people shouldn't be around dogs and he is one of them.

He's too busy listening to the sound of his own voice to watch what the dog is saying. He needs to learn before he gets his face taken off.

All I could see was wall to wall appeasement, avoidance and stress:

numerous lip licks and tongue flicks
closing her mouth, commissures drawn back
open tense mouth, long lips
look aways, avoidance of eye contact
appeasement postures, low crouching, dropping to the ground, he stops her rolling at one point
flinching
whale eye
ears pulled back
shake off

I can't watch any more.

 

[SilverLinings]

I hadn't seen any of his videos until this thread- is he any better at identifying signs of stress in horses? As he misses such obvious ones in the dog I find it hard to believe he would pick up on the more subtle ones in horses (or possibly even the more overt signals such as ear posture and tail swishing).

 

[Smitty]

I just wonder what people don't see.

I am in a very large syndicate with a racehorse. In the end I couldn't bear to watch the video updates that were sent as I felt he looked utterly miserable. It turned out he had stomach ulcers, but if I picked up something may be a problem for him, why the hell didn't the trainer. I failed my PC B test for heavens sake!!

I don't think the dog's in those vids look happy. No idea why he can't grasp it.

 

[Sandstone1]

I've just watched more of this video, sound off.

Some people shouldn't be around dogs and he is one of them.

He's too busy listening to the sound of his own voice to watch what the dog is saying. He needs to learn before he gets his face taken off.

All I could see was wall to wall appeasement, avoidance and stress:

numerous lip licks and tongue flicks
closing her mouth, commissures drawn back
open tense mouth, long lips
look aways, avoidance of eye contact
appeasement postures, low crouching, dropping to the ground, he stops her rolling at one point
flinching
whale eye
ears pulled back
shake off

I can't watch any more.

Im glad I am not the only one who can see all that because if you read the comments on Facebook you would think hes Gods gift to dog training.

 

[Sandstone1]

I hadn't seen any of his videos until this thread- is he any better at identifying signs of stress in horses? As he misses such obvious ones in the dog I find it hard to believe he would pick up on the more subtle ones in horses (or possibly even the more overt signals such as ear posture and tail swishing).

I have seen some videos with horse where the horse pins its ears etc. He normally uses a flag to send them away. I think he does know a lot about horses and notices body language with them. He does seem to have success with horses and does seem to have a way with them.

 

[Clodagh]

True, people have always expected, needed really, animals to be submissive/obedient - so 'dominance' has always existed in that way. However, in the modern day, dominance-based training imo tends to invoke the notion that we're using their 'natural' hierarchy/behaviour to become the 'alpha'. We're not just the boss, we're aiming to be the herd/pack leader. That's only really existed with horses since NH afaik, excluding some dominance studies in the 60s(?)-ish.

I don't know much about the history of dog training so wouldn't be able to compare.


and not just because wolves aren't dogs, but also because captive wolves will exhibit behaviours far removed behaviours from that of wild wolves

I’ve been at work so missed a lot here. I just wondered if maybe some horse people are happy their horse is obedient without wondering why. Although much as I expected my horse to move back when I opened the stable door I didn’t expect it to cower back. I probably didn’t put it very well. I wasn’t referring to the dominance theory as a theory, just that he was being dominant to get results.

 

[Sandstone1]

He talks a lot about being alpha to the horse...

 

[Clodagh]

He talks a lot about being alpha to the horse...

Ok, maybe that’s where he’s at then. I’ve never heard of him before this video.

 

[Sandstone1]

Ok, maybe that’s where he’s at then. I’ve never heard of him before this video.

From what I have seen he does have good points with horses and gets results, however seeing the video with the dog and his complete lack of understanding of dogs body language and heavy handed handling has completely put me off.
Also, his facebook followers are so blind as to what was wrong with the dog video.

 

[Ratface]

This video? I didn't watch all of it.

Poor little thing, that's bullying not training.

I want a happy dog who enjoys her walks on the end of my lead so it's force-free, reward based training all the way for me.

I prefer this video:

I feel very sorry for that poor confused puppy.

 

[Ratface]

Just can not understand why there are hundreds of comments saying how fantastic he is at dog training! Can people not see? Do they remove negative comments? He may be a good horse trainer but he really needs to keep away from dogs. I thought horse people were supposed to be sensible! How can they not see that poor dog is really scared.
He is simply manhandling it. Really really bad. Has he not heard of positive reinforcement? People must be wearing blinkers!

Thundering, I entirely agree with you. Dreadful little man. I did the three stages of the Good Citizens Dog Training classes with my German Shepherd and passed all of them. It took months, and lots of practice (like every walk!) with lots of reward-based play, and free running in a big secure field.
It was totally worth it. She lived a long and happy life and will never be forgotten.

 

[Thundering]

People like him put dog training back years. Its so sad. I feel that money is behind it and he sees a chance to make more money from dog training. If you listen to his wife talking at the start of the video that is what I feel. Maybe he just does not get what hes doing wrong but he needs to at least look in to signs of stress in dogs. That dog was screaming. He just was not listening.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Thats on a par with people saying " He knows hes done wrong, look at him" when they come home and see the dog has pooed on the floor or chewed the sofa. Dogs read our body language so well. Its a shame we dont read theirs as well!

Out of interest what behaviour are dogs showing when they look 'guilty' when they have done something, as in the videos they are sometimes already displaying the behaviour before the owner has found the destruction or whatever so I wouldn't have thought they would be reacting off of the owners body language or mood - unless owner has found it, then gone back out the door and come back in to make a better video I suppose..