Stubborn pony napping badly for my daughter

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book_lover

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Helllp! You guys have helped me before, and I put a lot of the advice into practice and we really made leaps and bounds. My daughter (10 next month) has a Welshie who can be very stubborn and difficult. We'll have had her for about 9 months. When she first arrived she was great, no issues, but then the bucking started - we got through that (my daughter now has a great seat!). Things were great for a bit, then we had a lot of snow up here over the winter which stopped us from working as we don't have an indoor school.... Since getting back into work since February, she's never really been going properly - not bucking (well hardly at all) - but the new trick is stopping, walking backwards, and turning around when L lifts her hand to smack her on the bum.... it really seems to be working in the pony's favour - which is strange because my daughter had got a lot stronger and assertive with her. She'll go forward for a bit but slow down at the ends of the school then stop - or near the gate. She's worse if there are people in the school (naps to them) or another pony stood doing nothing. Even though L was winning about 2 weeks ago - it seems to have escalated and now the pony is winning. I guess she knows that L is a child... it really interferes with her progress. We've joined L up to the PC as we thought it would help, but they didn't get on well at her first rally (same problem). She is off for XC training tomorrow and I have no idea how it will go! Today we eventually won by lungeing the pony with L on her, then letting them go but me occasionally cracking the lunge whip nearby. But really - this isn't going to cause behavioural change I doubt? Plus when my own horse is shod next week I'll be back in the saddle and not on the ground.... today I even had a little meltdown about and felt so sorry for my daughter who is a good strong rider and should really be out competing by now. I don't know at what stage you give in - but I certainly want to try one last push as this pony is amazing when she is going and has huge potential, plus they are bonded (at least on the ground) and L loves her. Even I do!! Worth mentioning that she only ever had adult or teen rider before. What kind of support can we seek? People keep saying I should get on her, or another adult - but we feel she'll just revert to her old behaviour once she has a child on her again... any advice on exercises or tactics or anything - much appreciated.
Editing to add teeth done recently and back checked - saddle fitted a few months ago but seems fine to me? She's 8 y old and a welsh D, sound and good healthy strides - fit but hairy and we missed our chance to clip (although the napping starts early in the schooling).
 
Have you tried long-reining her?

It might be worth you getting on her occasionally; it is more likely to help than do harm!

I know a 14.2hh that used to be very strong/take off in open spaces with a 12 year old on him. For ages the owner didn't want anyone else to ride him as he thought that pony would then take the p!ss more with the child but I eventually got on him. Put him in the same situation that he would be in with a child, he went to take off with me and he was told in no uncertain terms that it was not acceptable. Pony was much better for the child afterwards and if he started reverting I would get back on ad remind him of his manners!! It also allowed me to get a feeling for the pony and I was able to offer tips/advice when the child was riding.
 
Thanks 3Beasties... I am willing to do that - just hope she doesn't start the bucking trick with me as my most recent experience of that goes back to my first horse over 20 years ago - eek! In fact I have only recently started riding properly again with my own horse, who is a gentleman (although a wuss and can spook) so I'm not used to bad manners - let's hope my riding is good enough for her. I may actually not be a better rider than my daughter now - although I will most likely be a stronger one! Long reining, no only lunging, could be an idea?!
 
From what I understand napping can be down to various reasons, two of these being lack of confidence (horse I mean) and/or discomfort (ie saddle not fitting correctly).
So, I would suggest first getting the saddle checked and back checked and, if all deemed ok work on building up the pony's confidence. Maybe some private tuition to see if a fresh pair of eyes on the issues and they may have some specific advice.
 
If you don't feel confident enough to get her it may be worth getting a teenager on her or another adult.

Ponies always seem to go through some 'testing' stages with new riders so try not to be too disheartened! She sounds like she will be fab once over this little blip!
 
lady25, as the problem is new, I think you could be right. I have a super lady I can call up for saddle fitting, and a highly recommended back checker! 3Beasties I am confident enough to give it a go at least - we have a very soft school ;) Yeah she really will be fab, but I don't want my daughter to have to wait for 2 years before she can progress on her so really want to get this fixed if at all possible. Ponies - who'd have 'em!
 
also lady25 the confidence thing - she is quite a confident pony as far as I can work out, and she's familiar with the school, the work etc. It perhaps might explain her behaviour away from home, or maybe she needs more gentle treatment - although most people are certain she's just taking the mick out of her small rider. Wishing I'd spent three times as much on a "perfect" pony now although knowing our luck, such a pony might develop issues anyway!
 
Another tip which I use with my nappy horse (not a confidence issue!) is if she won't go forward when I ask I turn her tightly in a circle repeatedly until she will go forward (usually only have to turn her a couple of times!). If you are sure there are no physical problems this might be worth trying (although it may not be a suitable exercise for your daughter!).
 
Pressure and release might work. Do this on the ground and work with her like that. Then try the same voice ques in the saddle.

Just to add is there a chance she's just overhorsed? She can be confident as you like but if she hasn't got the strength and assertiveness the horse is used to it won't matter how confident she is.
 
thanks 3Beasties, we can try that with her. Equi I am indeed starting to wonder this. We did take advice on this when purchasing (because we'd already struggled with one smaller loan pony who had to go home eventually as he was just a bucking bronco then started to rear - after several checks we suspect some underlying stiffness is to blame, but his owner didn't listen and put him out to another child as far as I know!). So she didn't seem over horsed at first or even during the 1 month trial as the pony was so very sensitive to commands and forward going (her owner had trained her to voice commands but my daughter found this hard to maintain and reverted to mostly body commands). I really do suspect that it's a case that the pony is trying stuff on more with her as she knows she's smaller. But I want to do one really good push at cracking this before we change the pony AGAIN (starting to feel like a real failure tbh I don't know if I could face going through it again!) so any tips on how to do this big push to crack it welcome. Bearing in mind they've been great together before. The very thought of going through it all again, plus - how do you even sell a nappy pony? How do I raise the £4k I'd probably need to pay the premium for a well behaved pony? Argh. Will try the pressure and release, thank you.
 
What is the pony like out hacking? It sounds as if she is fed up of the school, plus if it is "soft" it may be very hard work for her.
 
Hi YorksG - she's great hacking in company - although she can put in an excited buck in the canter (but only when she's coming back into work and first cantering). She'll go anywhere and do anything if she's with another horse. We took her out today on her own for the first time ever - she was great mostly but DID try to turn around a few times, none the less my daughter got her to trot and canter (she was "racing" my little boy on his bike!). Only a few strides of canter then she was trying to turn around! And she refused point blank to canter in the wee field that we have a canter in on the way home - clearly she'll follow her friends anywhere but it's a different story if it's just her! Bearing in mind though that's the first time we've had her out on her own. We then tried to take her into the school for 10 minutes and a couple of jumps, and she was REALLY bad - but perhaps this is partly because she never normally does that after a hack (but we only did a short hack today). However, the others at the yard say this is me making excuses for her again.... the school is soft, it's the ripped up rubber school.... I would like to do more hacking with her (and we usually do) but my horse has been "footy" so I've been giving him a break hence no hacking. Actually thinking about it perhaps this problem has been worse since then? Anything in the school can make her decide to be nappy - seeing a friend being put back in the field; other horses stopping in the middle of the school; other horses arriving home in their boxes. You name it!
 
My Welsh D used to be very nappy when I first got her and definitely think she was testing me out! What I found through trial and error was voice commands put me back in complete control, strong, very athortative voice commands. If she napped a no nonsense 'walk on' worked better than anything else. I haven't looked back and can go anywhere now. It also doesn't reply on strength just voice tone. Ive know a few Welshies who work better with voice commands. It might be worth a go?
 
Its very hard with young children, the pony knows more about being ridden, and learns a new trick with every rider whilst the child is trying to catch up.
I have a very clever welsh A, who is almost perfect in every way apart from the fact he's smarter than most children he would be bought for. I have tried selling him on a couple of occasions, he did PC, hunted, broken to drive WHP, good in traffic, snaffle mouth, not sharp, so he should be perfect as FR but no he is far too clever for a small child, a child 10+ and they have an amazing time. Think ATV with legs.
I would not put an adult on him, tried that and the pony will be clever enough to know the difference and the leg aids are in totally the wrong place. To be honest I would avoid the issue as much as possible. He hates schooling and napes, what small pony likes schooling. Find out what he will cooperate with the least amount of hassle and do that. Do a different thing every day, if its only a walk to the shops, you will do a lot of walking and running. Get him and your daughter thinking forward. Get her to use her voice as an aid, it will let her breathe, get her to sing, get the tension out. Do not get him fit, if you give him three or four days on don't worry about days off as long as its consistent and the work varied. Find a field out on hack, and do an oval in trot, work on small steps of success.
Most teachers ( most of forgotten want its like to be small)will try and make the pony or the child do it, which ends up most of the time the pony winning, you have to stack the odds in your childs favour and be smarter than the pony. The more saying yes becomes ingrained your daughter will relax and get the measure of him. I wish you well, I have been though this at least twice and have seen enough naughty ponies at PC, but even the best pony will start to say no if its bored or can see the easy way out, that just the way they are.
 
oh gosh, sorry OP, its horrible when this happens!

My daughter had some struggles with her horse (I bought one that was too big and strong for her then couldn't sell him as he developed arthritis) and the one thing that worked was to send them both to our wonderful RS for a week where Polly had lessons with him a couple of times a day and really got her confidence up and gave her the tools to deal with his behaviour. The key is to act BEFORE the evasion really takes hold.

From being frightened to ride, my daughter, all 8 stone of her, was riding her 16.1hh Welsh x TB bareback in canter. If you have the option to do this then it may help with a solution. Good luck in any case :)
 
Tess great idea and interesting you should suggest this - when she came to us her owner had trained her with mostly voice - although Laura found it hard to work that way so reverted to body commands. I will get her to try this. Honetpot thank you - I am ingraining this sentence in my brain: "The more saying yes becomes ingrained your daughter will relax and get the measure of him." Tobiano that would work I am sure, but not sure when/how we would be able to do that. I am going to emplore her instructor to come more often, or if not I need to find someone who can.... I am now wondering if she's in season. She can be hard work but this is one of her "phases" and I think the last ones may have coincided with that, too! Bloomin' heck is it not bad enough having to deal with my own PMT??? But then - it may not be that at all.
 
Does the whip work, will the pony go forward when tapped! I had a particularly naughty native who knew all the tricks in the book, to get out of everything, what I found to help was to carry two schooling whips, I know your daughter will have small hands but you can get them with very thin handles, and thin reins, when pony was grinding to a halt or trying to turn/nap to gate,I was able to tickle behind the leg without taking hands off the reins, trying to turn away from the tickle resulted in the other side, pony soon got bored and realised he wasn't getting away with it, keep schooling short, sweet and fun, games, handy pony type things.
 
Another trick when they begin to back up is for the rider to immediately ASK them to back, and then keep them backing. It puts the rider back in control of what the horse is doing and the horse finds itself working when it was trying to get out of work. Then rider asks horse to move on and 9 times out of 10, the horse does.

It does require confidence and timing but can be effective.
 
If you ring round you can find a small instructor, or send him away for a week or more, the longer it goes on, the more ingrained.
If she leans back, it will be uncomfortable and he may move forward.
 
You may not have the money for a ready made pony but is there some money you can throw at this one? I'd be inclined to invest in some private lessons with a really good instructor.

Does the pony have a good level of schooling already? She may ne eight but could still be green and unsure of what she is being asked

If she isn't green I would crack on and school her yourself for a while

If she is green then sending her away for schooling may be a good idea, if you go on to sell her you may not get the cost of this back but it will make the pony far more sellable

I would very tentatively add that if the last pony was difficult and this one is too is there a chance you are overestimating your childs ability? It could be that a loaned more experienced more forgiving pony could be the way to go
 
My only experience of a nappy horse was a little mare I had who used to nap in the yard when I tried to ride her up to the school. YO stood behind her with a carriage whip (lunge whip is fine too, anything long enough to put a safe distance between human and hooves). I put my leg on, mare stepped back and got a sharp tap with the whip. She jumped forward and got a pat and asked to move on. We repeated this a few times and she got the picture quite quickly that it was easier to just move forward.
However, she was a lazy little ID cross who was just after an easy life. Clever ponies can be trickier!
 
It is quite sensitive to suggest but you've now had 2 ponies who were perfect on arrival that have now manifested poor behaviour. I think some lessons with a really good instructor may be the solution as these behaviours appear to be being learnt by the ponies once they are with you.
 
jakkibag said:
Does the whip work, will the pony go forward when tapped! I had a particularly naughty native who knew all the tricks in the book, to get out of everything, what I found to help was to carry two schooling whips, I know your daughter will have small hands but you can get them with very thin handles, and thin reins, when pony was grinding to a halt or trying to turn/nap to gate,I was able to tickle behind the leg without taking hands off the reins, trying to turn away from the tickle resulted in the other side, pony soon got bored and realised he wasn't getting away with it, keep schooling short, sweet and fun, games, handy pony type things.
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Jakkibag thanks (sorry for late reply I hand't realised there were more replies here). this idea has a lot of potential - sounds very similar to her behaviour too. Will try that.


thanks
 
baymareb said:
Another trick when they begin to back up is for the rider to immediately ASK them to back, and then keep them backing. It puts the rider back in control of what the horse is doing and the horse finds itself working when it was trying to get out of work. Then rider asks horse to move on and 9 times out of 10, the horse does.

It does require confidence and timing but can be effective.
Click to expand...

this is a fantastic idea. It's similar to tricks I had to use on my own horse when I was 15 - she came with all sorts of problems but we eventually worked through them. thanks :)
 
Bonkers2 said:
If you ring round you can find a small instructor, or send him away for a week or more, the longer it goes on, the more ingrained.
If she leans back, it will be uncomfortable and he may move forward.
Click to expand...
will ask her instructor to be ready to get on if needed next time - thanks Bonkers. But I suspect that if she goes away, she will come back and just realise she has a smaller rider again and pull out the tricks once more. I do think it would be better to fix with her main rider.
 
WelshD said:
You may not have the money for a ready made pony but is there some money you can throw at this one? I'd be inclined to invest in some private lessons with a really good instructor.

Does the pony have a good level of schooling already? She may ne eight but could still be green and unsure of what she is being asked

If she isn't green I would crack on and school her yourself for a while

If she is green then sending her away for schooling may be a good idea, if you go on to sell her you may not get the cost of this back but it will make the pony far more sellable

I would very tentatively add that if the last pony was difficult and this one is too is there a chance you are overestimating your childs ability? It could be that a loaned more experienced more forgiving pony could be the way to go
Click to expand...

Laura has been told by many people (pro and otherwise) that she is a cracking rider. Really good for her years in the saddle (now 4 years). In hindsight a schoolmaster would have been better, yes. BUT I think with additional lessons (they are not regular enough, I agree - the instructor tends to come only when she can pull together a group, but I have asked her to come more frequently). This is the pony we have though, she doesn't do anything to endanger her rider and is a sweet pony, so I think we can work with her.
 
Flicker said:
My only experience of a nappy horse was a little mare I had who used to nap in the yard when I tried to ride her up to the school. YO stood behind her with a carriage whip (lunge whip is fine too, anything long enough to put a safe distance between human and hooves). I put my leg on, mare stepped back and got a sharp tap with the whip. She jumped forward and got a pat and asked to move on. We repeated this a few times and she got the picture quite quickly that it was easier to just move forward.
However, she was a lazy little ID cross who was just after an easy life. Clever ponies can be trickier!
Click to expand...

This sounds promising. I know she will go forward if she sees a lunge whip out the corner of her eye. Ultimately we want a better result though as in Laura being totally independent. will use this idea though if we have another bad day - thank you :)
 
Spotsrock said:
It is quite sensitive to suggest but you've now had 2 ponies who were perfect on arrival that have now manifested poor behaviour. I think some lessons with a really good instructor may be the solution as these behaviours appear to be being learnt by the ponies once they are with you.
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Spotsrock you are entitled to your opinion, although I don't recall ever saying the ponies were perfect. The first one especially it turns out had a history of bucking (it was played down when we went to view him). Actually I believe he should be given early retirement as he is not safe for children (according to many of the professionals around us), but the loaner may have had other ideas. Becky was perfect when we viewed her - but that doesn't mean she was perfect. She was green if I remember correctly but responding very well to her adult rider's aids.

I would have to agree that the behaviours are learned. But with respect - not through any fault of my daughter's. She is a great little rider (I have that on authority from multiple instructors and experienced peers at the livery) but yes - the pony is clever, and the pony learns! She learns she has a smaller rider who she can take advantage of. This is classic for Welsh Ds.

You know when you wish you hadn't come back to see if there were more replies?? Jeez. If you knew us, and knew my daughter's riding, you would know that we are spending a lot of time with the pony, investing a lot of work into her - we are doing the best we can with guidance from professionals (and I thought it would be a good thing to come here and ask for more ideas - thanks to all who offered constructive advice). To have it suggested that we are ruining ponies is neither constructive nor particularly kind.
 
Also to give a little example of her the other day - she was behaving beautifully for my daughter - just me riding my horse, and her with her pony in the school. Warming up, trotting and some canter work, all fine. Then my husband arrived with the inlaws to meet their granddaughter's new pony - though they stood up on the bank quite far outside of the school. As soon as the audience showed up her behaviour changed. L got her going forward again in the end.
 
Sounds like you have a smart little pony who has got a little arena sour and knows how to get a rest - you could try letting the pony go to the gate, side, pony, person, etc., and then when it gets there start moving its feet in circles, working on transitions, leg yield, back up, etc., just keep its feet moving - when the pony moves away, take the pressure off and let the pony rest when it offers to move away (initially it might happen by mistake). The distance should increase to the point where you should find the pony moves away on request, without protest or having to resort to hitting with a stick - on said note, I would take away the stick and get your instructor to help you with getting the pony off the leg, a stick should be used as a schooling aid not as a punishment - every time your daughter turns her hand to use the stick, it upsets her balance, the pony's balance and the bond! Good luck and hope your lovely pony will soon return so that your daughter is soon enjoying the ridden work again.
 
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