Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National

[leah_x]

Enjoy? How would you know! Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter. Ban this race, just horrific.

I hate people who bring up the use of whips in racing when they clearly don't understand why they are used.
If you're riding a horse and it is drifting across infront of another horse, going at a gallop, causing danger to another horse...what would you do? A simple tap down the shoulder will sort that out.
If a horse is misbehaving and not doing what it's asked to do, what would you do? A little tap.
If a horse is going towards a fence not concentrating, or putting in enough effort, leaving the risk of falling and injuring itself, what would you do? Give it a little tap.
When riding a finish, if you look properly you will see the whip is only used every 6-7 strides. It's simply there to urge the horse on, to keep its mind on the job.
To ride a horse in a race without a stick would be plain stupidity. As McCoy once said; you ride some horses that feel like if it was human, it would be in prison. You need a stick to get them and yourselves out of dangerous situations.
And the whips are cushioned like mad! I can hit myself with mine as hard as I can and it doesn't hurt! unlike the ones used in eventing....

If this race was banned, then so many horses would go to slaughter. Not because the racing industry is cruel, but where else are thousands of horses going to go?

The racing industry is constantly being changed and made better. Maybe email the british horse racing authority and they will set you straight about some of your opinions.

 

[KatB]

Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.

Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealistic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright.

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.

 

[lhotse]

Yes, it is very sad that any horse should die, but remember that without racing, the veterinary care that we are able to access would be a whole lot less. There is a reason why Newmarket is home to one of the most advanced veterinary hospitals in the country and we can all tap into that. Horses do die in other sports, I have myself held a horse that was bleeding to death at Badminton after the flag incident, and there was no official vet in attendance at that fence. A spectator from france (a vet) was the first on the scene. They were using equipement from the St John's Ambulance. The screens were not put up for 15 minutes and the horse ambulance was on the other side of the park. I cannot imagine that happening on a racecourse.

 

[jendie]

>>>he won enthusiastically but you can see when pulled up how utterly knackered he was yet he was fully prepared to give everything, if he didn't like what he does then he wouldn't have put in such a huge effort<<<

I think animals put in such amazing efforts to please US. I think that, left to their own devices, these horses would have been eating the grass instread of hurtling round the course. It is further evidence, if any were needed, of just how fantastic man's relationship with these animals can be. But that relationship brings responsibilities and sadly man doesn't always come up to the mark.

 

[Ebenezer_Scrooge]

Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealsitic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright.

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.

Well put....

 

[3Beasties]

I don't think horses are expected to fall, owners/trainers/jockeys will not enter a race with the aim of the horse falling, they enter because they believe there horse has a chance to win.

The National has come on loads over the years, the course and jumps have been altered to try and make it safer and I believe that this has helped, not as many horses fall now compared to years ago.

 

[Caledonia]

Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.

Quite - well put.

 

[Hullabaloo]

There was no mention right until the very end.

To be fair to the commentators this is the first time (as far as I can remember) that its been so obvious to people watching that there was a dead horse on the course. However it was handled some people would have found it insensitive.
The presenters don't want to take away from the achievement of the winning jockey and trainer by talking about fatalities before they even get to the winners enclosure. Like everyone else I was glued to the screen waiting for news of the horses but I can understand why they did the interviews with the winners connections first (and as for Sam Walley Cohen without his shirt - my god, if I was 20 years younger!).
A lot of people watching the national won't be horsey and while I'm sure they are sorry that horses have died they are probably more concerned about how they won or lost their bet.
I actually thought Claire Balding handled it very well.

 

[KatB]

I don't think horses are expected to fall, owners/trainers/jockeys will not enter a race with the aim of the horse falling, they enter because they believe there horse has a chance to win.

The National has come on loads over the years, the course and jumps have been altered to try and make it safer and I believe that this has helped, not as many horses fall now compared to years ago.

Of course they wouldn't enter it with the aim of a horse falling!!! There would be no point in training it/working on it/spending money on it if that was the case!!! And yes, the grand national has improved hugely, but it is still KNOWN that horses WILL FALL! There is no getting away from that, and it is that that makes me feel uneasy about this particular race.

On the vet hospital/racing industry support arguement, I have some very good friends who love racing, and work in vet hospitals/vet industry, and follow it keenly because of the work they do with racehorses. However, they still feel uneasy about the grand national because of the fact they know it carries such a HUGE risk and it's not expected for a high % of horses to finish.

 

[Caledonia]

Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one. I am not anti it as said before, so I am not being "emotional" or unrealistic about it, but I could never fully support something where horses expect to be pushed so far to their limits, that they can't stay upright.

The ones who were 100% fit, well prepared etc, were all a credit to the sport and their trainers. However, the ones that aren't will end up either falling or (hopefully) being pulled up, and unfortunately horses falling at speed will be a lot more likely to die.

Yes accidents happen in fields, other equine sports, etc, but there is no other equine event where you KNOW without any doubt that horses WILL end up falling, and there is more often than not fatalities.

Of course other sports expect falls - why do you think the frangible pin was invented in eventing? Rotational falls are taken on board as part of eventing.

I hope you're not suggesting that those two fatally injured were in some way less fit that the rest? Dooney's Gate and Ornais made catastrophic jumping errors that ended their lives. Trained by Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins respectively, Willie's wife owned the horse and his son was riding. How can you be so cavalier as to suggest that the Champion trainer would send one out unprepared, or that WM would send the horse out unfit to race with his son riding?

It's a tragic end for those connections, and my heart goes out to them. The horses will have known little about it.

 

[sleepingdragon10]

I hope that I am not considered to be making a 'fuss', however I really do feel that BBC coverage was some what blase about the sad loss or injury to horses or riders. Having followed the race quite keenly for 30 plus years, I do feel that the negative side is ignored. Yes, horses love to race and indeed there are fatalities. Why can't we honour them after th tragic event? Is it not PC to show that we really do care? To answer those who mentioned eventing fatalities, I actually feel that these awful incidents are more 'openly' discussed and appropriate sympathies expressed. To ignore race fatalities and focus on wild celebration and inane remarks seems to assume we are all fools.... I wish I had not put any money on this race and the money from my 1st, 2nd 3rd 'success' will be donated to a racehorse welfare charity, such is my regret that I perpetuate the attitute to racing.

Did Clare Balding not say how she felt unable to be jubilant about the winner knowing that 2 horses had lost their lives during the race?
Jeez, what do you want, wailing and screaming?

 

[TGM]

I have to say I am a fan of racing generally, but I do have concerns about the Grand National because as others have said above, it does seem to be expected that some horses will die during it. Yes there is risk turning a horse out in the field or hacking out and competing in other equestrian sports - but if you turn 40 horses out in field in the morning, you don't expect 2 to be dead at the end of the day. At what point do we say that the risk is too high to be morally acceptable? It would be interesting to see what are the statistics for horse fatalities in the Grand National specifically as opposed to jump racing generally, and also in comparison to other high risk equestrian sports such as eventing. Do we, the general public, just think the fatality rate in the National is high because the race is so well publicised, or is there actually a proven increased fatality rate in this race?

 

[Dunlin]

Around 1997 I was at Hickstead and a horse broke a foreleg and had to be PTS in the arena, it was all done behind screens. Because it wasn't a publicised event only the owners/rider/connections and spectators who were there knew the horse had died.

The problem here is it's a well known race which millions of people watch. Horses die everyday sustaining injuries in the field, schooling, hacking, cross country etc. If they were on the TV on in the news I have no doubt there would be people saying "ohhh no, thats so cruel to make them do that and then they die".

No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall

I beg to differ.

When I was at Burghley a few years ago I was the Leaf Pit. I lost count of how many times I heard people say "ahhh, damn I thought that one was going to fall" and the excitement of people saying "ohhh wow I got that fall on camera, that'll get loads of hits on youtube". Same applies to EVERY other cross country course I have been to.

I thought Claire Balding handled the fatalities very well, she showed genuine sadness and respect.

 

[KatB]

Of course other sports expect falls - why do you think the frangible pin was invented in eventing? Rotational falls are taken on board as part of eventing.

I hope you're not suggesting that those two fatally injured were in some way less fit that the rest? Dooney's Gate and Ornais made catastrophic jumping errors that ended their lives. Trained by Paul Nicholls and Willie Mullins respectively, Willie's wife owned the horse and his son was riding. How can you be so cavalier as to suggest that the Champion trainer would send one out unprepared, or that WM would send the horse out unfit to race with his son riding?

It's a tragic end for those connections, and my heart goes out to them. The horses will have known little about it.

Falls happen with other sports, of course they do, and can have fatal consequences, I'm not saying they don't. However, they are relatively rare in the grand scheme of how many people event. If one event caused as many fallers as happens with the grand national, there would be a massive enquiry and it wouldn't run again unless something was changed dramatically.

I am not saying the horses that died were in any way under prepared, but every horse has off days, and it is unlikely everything racing will be 100% on that particular day. The grand national pushes the horses to the absolute limit, so regardless on how amazing the care/prep beforehand, if the horse is even a teeny tiny bit under par, or makes a mistake it is much more likely to fall because of the amount the national pushes them.

As I have said before, i am not anti national, it just makes me uneasy to see so many fall year in year out.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Fraid it's not. No other equine sport or event expects horses to fall. The national is the only one.

Only if you're VERY naive!! I 'expect' to see a horse fall in an ODE - from lower to higher levels; in hunter trials, team chases and certainly in point-to-points! I always breathe a sigh of relief for each horse that completes - and each horse that gets up unhurt!

Sadly, it is not particularly unusual to have one or two horses either killed (or so injured that they are PTS later) in any Point-to-point! If we only allowed horses to do things that were 'safe', we'd NEVER turn them out in a field!

 

[V1NN]

RIP lovely horses x

 

[KatB]

I am not naive, and stand by the point I made above. I have been involved with many eventers/hunters/showjumpers and have although we all know it CAN happen, you do not have the thought that the horse is likely to fall at the start of a ODE/SJing round/day hunting. If you do, there is something wrong somewhere IMHO!!!

 

[muddygreymare]

RIP Dooney's Gate + Ornais My thoughts are with the owners/trainers/jockeys etc. At least they died doing what they loved

 

[dominobrown]

Before I get anymore annoyed....
Can people not post uneducated rubbish please. You are entiltled to an opinion though to come out with 'random' statements which are untrue is irratating.

Having worked in racing, seen horses breaking down, losing horses and looking after them it never gets any easier.
However it a nasty part of racing the thrill of racing is amazing, and to say all horses don't enjoy it is rubbish, to say all staff don't care is rubbish and any other stupid genralisation is rubbish.
A racehorse trainer who also did a lot of over discplines said they didn't like eventing- it was just too dangerous!
I think on Comp riders there was a thread about top-class eventers that 'disappeared' for eventing. Most due to soundness isssues so please don't bunch racing into the only dangerous equine sport!
I personally event and point to point.

 

[lannerch]

Am loving the title of this thread it sounds like most of the field died!

 

[glenruby]

Falls happen with other sports, of course they do, and can have fatal consequences, I'm not saying they don't. However, they are relatively rare in the grand scheme of how many people event. If one event caused as many fallers as happens with the grand national, there would be a massive enquiry and it wouldn't run again unless something was changed dramatically.

"Relatively rare" - really?? I have no hesitations in saying that if you compared the thousands of runners in racing each year with the SIGNIFICANTLY smaller number who event, the percentage of deaths/fatal injuries and furthermore longterm/permanent unsound horses would be higher for eventing. Just reading a thread earlier about what happened former big name horses in eventing - most were said to be injured/broken down or had serious soundness issues. That makes it no better than racing- and probably even worse if exact percentages of these incidents were known.

And yes, at any 4star event, falls ARE expected. Of course they are. How many events have you ever been to/watched that there truely were no falls/injuries? So some racehorses have a greater tendency to fall than others (most GN runners have a good history over fences) and on board certain horses jockeys must have greater worries about falling than others but the same can be said for event horses of questionable sope. Muschamp Impala springs to mind.

I think any eventer saying they think the GN or NH racing in general is cruel (and this is not directed at you KatB but at some of the "pro-eventing" and "anti-NH" folk) are real hypocrits.

Also agree with what has been said about Spring Along - couldnt she have retired him gracefully instead of making him do another event then? He had nothing to prove. Is this greed too?

 

[Foxhunter49]

The Grand National has been modified over the years and there are many other races where horses die from falls.

These horses have to qualify for the race and in doing so, prove they are capable of jumping fences. It is something they are bred to do.

I think that Claire balding and Richard Dunwoody handled the aftermath well. I know what it is like not to have a horse come home from the races but you get over it and move on.

The fact that the ground was so perfect led to the race being very fast and speed will lead to harder falls for riders and horses.

I think that to change the National to anything less would take it from being a rough race to just being a long race that could be jumped around by a kid on a decent pony. \

 

[Tinypony]

Is there any single event where you would expect at least one horse to die? Say for example, on the cross country day? Just to be clear about what I am asking, is there an event where, just for example, people might expect that one horse will lose it's life every time the event is run? As an example (I know it's not true!) might some of these "not naive" and savvy horse people here say "Oh yes, a horse dies at Badminton every year doing the cross country, but they love what they are doing, the veterinary attendance is very good and the end is quick".
I'm not joining the argment, I made my mind up about the racing industry many years ago. It really hit home when there was a QED documentary called They Shoot Horses Don't They? (I wish they'd run it again). I am commenting because I don't think people are comparing like with like.
A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999. That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race. This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country. People are comparing it to horses that die in hunter trials, events and even hacking. So how many such events took place today in various parts of the UK? And how many horses died during them I wonder? Not many (if any!) I'm sure, and if it has happened I'm sure we'll see an RIP on here later today. 1000's of horses took part in ALL of the activities that people are comparing to the National today, and none of them died.

My observation is that it would be pretty accurate to say that "Every year at least one horse dies during the Grand National..." And that you can't make a comparable statement about any other competetive equine event in the UK.

Statistically a horse being entered into the Grand National is much more likely to die than one going into Badminton isn't it?

 

[zefragile]

I think any eventer saying they think the GN or NH racing in general is cruel (and this is not directed at you KatB but at some of the "pro-eventing" and "anti-NH" folk) are real hypocrits.

I disagree, there are so many horses in the GN running at speed together that I don't think you can really compare eventing and the GN. How many horses at Badminton get brought down by other horses? (Like KatB I am not anti-racing, although I'd rather there were less runners in the GN).

As to your point about Spring Along, unless his death was related to his age then I think that you don't really have much of a point there.

 

[glenruby]

What do you mean 1000's took place in the other events but NONE died? I know of 3 horses that died at hunter trials/hunt rides/eventing last weekend alone - 2 due to owner errors. I couldnt even hesitate to guess how many died competing at any level in any disipline in the UK over the last year.

 

[glenruby]

Oh yes, fewer runners is probably a idea - as many of the horses each year are not necessarily true fallers but brought down. Those are a direct result of the number of horses allowed in the race.

 

[Tinypony]

Glenruby, do the statistics, and maybe read my post again?
Is there any annual event where you can say that even one horse is expected to die every time it is run?
We're talking about what happens in one race, every year. Every year, an average of 2.5 horses die in a single day running in the same race. Where else does that happen?
I don't think that trying to guess how many horses die in any other sport in a year is releveant really (I'm saying this nicely, I'm not confrontational). We're talking about a particular race. As soon as people start listing all the other ways that horses can die then I think it becomes irrelevant. The reason I say that is the predictablility, where else can you predict an equine fatality with such sad accuracy?
Just to add - looking at it from another angle - how many horses might compete in the cross country stage of various events around the country during a single Saturday? I'm not an eventer, but say for argument and maths that it's 1,000 and on that particular day 5 died (unlikely I think). Even then, statistically, the horses taking part in those events would have been far less likely to die than a racehorse taking part in the Grand National.

 

[lannerch]

The difference between eventing fatalities and gn fatalities is with affiliated eventing not only are they not expected but when they do occur they will go to great dephs to find out why they occured and amendments will be made to the fence or even rules to prevent a carbon copy of the same fatality ever occuring again.

Not so with the gn ( I do no they lessened its intensity quite a few years ago ) with the gn if fatalitys occur its just one of those things.

So I too think you cannot really compare the fatatlitys in gn in the same light as the fatalitys that can occur in afiliated eventing.

I also think a fully fit horse dieing on the event or racing circuit dieing of a heart attack ( which is due to a weakness that could have occured at any time ) is not the same as one dieing as a result of a fall.

 

[Caledonia]

National deaths last 12 years

2011 - 2 from heavy falls - attributed, IMO due to fast ground.
2010 - no deaths
2009 - 1 death - not from a fall, but 'I hear the Echo' collapsed and died on the run in.
2008 - 1 death - McKelvey got injured running loose after unseating
2007 - no deaths
2006 - 1 death - Tyneandtyneagain - fall
2005 - no deaths
2004 - no deaths
2003 - no deaths
2002 - 2 deaths - The Last Fling and Manx Magic - both falls on good ground
2001 - no deaths
2000 - no deaths

I can't be bothered going further back, but 480 horses ran over the last twelve years and there have been 5 deaths from falls. More significantly the ground was good on both the days 2 horses were lost. So I guess it's to do with the speed not the fences. But how could they have forseen this weather? Also, it is dangerous to water late to change the going as false ground can be very treacherous.

It's not a huge statistic, 1 in 100. Eventing isn't much better at 3* and 4*.......

 

[ladyt25]

I have to say every yer I say I am not going to watch the National yet every year I do watch it! I almost watch it as i want to know the horses have got round safely and I hate when that isn't the case. This is the first time i have known the situation like today though where the two fences had to be avoided the next cicuit round. Very say to see the sheet covering the dead horse. Just gives you a chill. I do however think it's unfortunate and noone wants to see horses fall - God, the cheers a fallen horse gets from the crowd when it's been down a while but actually gets up ok is immense - often louder than the cheer for the winner. People don't like to see fatalities. I watched some flat racing earlier on today on CH4 and I think there were two fatalities there as well - awful. They are not jumping fences. Ok so I do question whether the fact they are immature and raced to young isa contributary factor in these incidents.

I am a little confused by the two horses that die though as i thought those were two that fell at Beechers? What happened to Calgary Bay? I thought that he too was one of the fatalities at the first fence that they had to cordon off - where the sheet was covering the horse? Does anyone know because I was sure there was only one faller at that fence and that was him?

I actually don't knwo how I feel about racing - some days i think it's awful and other days I am in awe of the likes of Denman who are juat amazing talented horses. There are many accidents and fatalities in eventing every week but we don't hear about them. Christ I have seen enough fallers eventing and I don't go and watch it that much!

I do think they could lessen the incidents in the GN by maybe reducing the runners to say 30. I think that would help as I think may of the accidents happen cos the horses are effectively stampeding and can't see the fence properly.

It did make me chuckled the though horse that plunged at the beginning (or jumped something that wasn't there) and then promptly jumped the fence so enthusiastically that it went flying! I don't think the jockey was intending that to happen and I don't think there was much he could do to have stopped it - that horse was so excited!

Oh and I am very pleased that my old PC pal Dominic Elsworth completed this year - he was 9th and i think that's the first time he's got round!