Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National

[Tinypony]

But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race. As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).

 

[lannerch]

But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race. As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).

Well said tinypony

We should be conparing all the fatalities jump racing with all the fatalities eventing and as a percentage in relation to number of events to make it a truer conparison!

 

[Caledonia]

But... we still seem to be looking at the whole of eventing and comparing it to one race. As long as we do that how can the discussion make any sense?
(Anyway, as I said, I made my mind up ages ago, and I'm not going to cook tea before the household start rioting!).

Tinypony - you said horses die every year - they don't.

 

[glenruby]

For what its worth, at the point I was responding we were mostly discussing falls not fatalities. Falls are most definitely as expected at all levels of eventing as they are at NH racing and the GN.

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.

 

[Caledonia]

Well said tinypony

We should be conparing all the fatalities jump racing with all the fatalities eventing and as a percentage in relation to number of events to make it a truer conparison!

That's just it though - you can't because those records are not public. I'd dearly like to see them too. I love eventing, I'm not trying to knock it, but I also love racing, and think the very open aspect of the sport, and publicity counts unfairly against it. Any sport involving horses jumping holds degrees of risk, and it's not right to subject one to more scrutiny than another as happens with racing.

 

[lannerch]

But with all falls in afiliated eventing a thorough investigation is carried out to see if lessons can be learned to prevent it happening again not so in nh, but fair enough they will happen in both and I am not anti gn or nh racing, however I do not think you can conpare eventing as an equivalent risk!

 

[Caledonia]

For what its worth, at the point I was responding we were mostly discussing falls not fatalities. Falls are most definitely as expected at all levels of eventing as they are at NH racing and the GN.

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.

Calgary Bay fell at the same fence (4th) as the ill-fated Ornais. Calgary Bay was middle to inside, whereas Ornais was on the outside of the field.

Agree about falls being expected eventing - hence the need for frangible pins.

 

[ladyt25]

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.[/QUOTE]

No, sorry I didn't mean he fell at the first, I meant the 1st of the fences that they have to divert round on the second time round. I was pretty sure it was Calgary Bay and when they did the replay they said Calgary Bay was the one who fell and that was when the horse didn't move at all after it fell (the fall itself didn't look that bad in the replay though). When they said the horses that had died he wasn't mentioned so i was/am confused as the fatalities were definitely at 2 separate fences. Hmm, i may have to go check that out again.

 

[Caledonia]

But with all falls in afiliated eventing a thorough investigation is carried out to see if lessons can be learned to prevent it happening again not so in nh, but fair enough they will happen in both and I am not anti gn or nh racing, however I do not think you can conpare eventing as an equivalent risk!

It's not just that, it's the perception as was said earlier. When Zara fell and Tsunami was killed, it was poor Zara. When Daisy lost Springalong, poor Daisy. And rightly so. But nobody's baying for blood from the event fraternity, and calling for it to be banned.

Really, I wish ALL sports were forced to have the same stringent accountability for comp records that racing has. Then maybe this argument wouldn't continue to rage.

 

[Caledonia]

Calgary Bay did not fall at the first. It was the 4th I think. Thats Rhythm fell at the 1st. Think it was Calgary Bay that nose dived through the fence - you could see that fall coming 3 strides out.

No, sorry I didn't mean he fell at the first, I meant the 1st of the fences that they have to divert round on the second time round. I was pretty sure it was Calgary Bay and when they did the replay they said Calgary Bay was the one who fell and that was when the horse didn't move at all after it fell (the fall itself didn't look that bad in the replay though). When they said the horses that had died he wasn't mentioned so i was/am confused as the fatalities were definitely at 2 separate fences. Hmm, i may have to go check that out again.[/QUOTE]

Calgary Bay got up - Ornais didn't. The second fatality was at Bechers first time round, Dooney's Gate.

 

[Birker2020]

I would just like to say how sickened I was when I watched the replay of the National that we taped earlier in the day. It has made me ashamed to be british and even more ashamed that I put a bet on. You cannot compare racing to eventing. The two are nothing alike. And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind. So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc. Not because they like taking death defying leaps over fences designed to 'challenge' them.

It is a horrid race, I don't for the life of me know why I watched in and I am digusted with myself for having a bet this morning upon it. RIP the lovely horses who gave their lives in the name of 'sport'.

And I agree with Dovorian about the inane remarks. When Clare Spalding spoke to the jockey he mentioned about having to veer around the fallen horses and the chap to the left of him changed the subject so that it was not 'focused' on. I have to agree that these incidents ARE NOT discussed, the BBC seem to gloss over them and the horses aren't even mentioned. Its easy to forget that these are living breathing animals, who feel pain, fright, worry and goodness knows what else. When you see a fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport -I can't help but think that the British public and the racing industry is doing something wrong somewhere.

And please do not slag me off for my opinions.

 

[sonjafoers]

I love NH racing, I love P2P and I love Eventing however I'm with a few posters on here who say that the GN really makes me feel uneasy. I watched the Topham yesterday and felt the fences were too big so to see them again today with 2 circuits to go doesn't sit well with me. Like I say I love National Hunt but there's just something about the National that makes me question it.

I know Clare Balding gave her condolences today but there were 2 bits of reporting that p***ed me off a bit - the 1st was when she said the winner came home 'full of running' or words to that effect. Did she not see him afterwards? I thought he was going to collapse at one point, yes he came in well but to see him in that state makes a bit of a mockery of her comment. If he had come home that full of running why wasn't he in the Winners Enclosure enjoying his win?

The 2nd bit I disliked was from that p**tt Richard Pitman ( only my opinion! ) when he was interviewing in the jockeys room after. He was talking to AP and then said something like the only downside to the race was when Robbie McNamaras saddle slipped and as a result he came off. I don't know the exact words. How insensitive a comment when 2 horses had died, I know some things get said without thinking, especially with the pressure of live TV I guess, but that really takes the biscuit.

 

[glenruby]

Ah, it was Ornais that nose dived then - the one of the outside towards the back.


Watching it again - I think he may have lost his action 3 strides out and that was the cause of his demise.

 

[Birker2020]

That's just it though - you can't because those records are not public. I'd dearly like to see them too. .

Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race. When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point. Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse. Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner. Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level. The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.

 

[PeterNatt]

I would suggest that there is still room for improvement to reduce the number of horses killed or injured in the grand national.

 

[sonjafoers]

Applecart14 I couldn't agree with both of your posts more. Well said.

 

[teagreen]

Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.

Racing is NEVER going to be banned - if you don't like it, don't watch it. By Monday, everyone will have forgotten and horses will continue racing, with the odd fatality. And the stable staff and trainer and owner of that horse will grieve, and few others will notice. It happends everyday, not just in the National.

But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.

 

[glenruby]

Worth also taking into account that racing has a much lower "human" fatality rate than eventing. 35 riders lost their lives from 1997-2008 and I believe 22 since 2008. Nowhere near this number of jockeys have been killed in NH racing in the same time period. And those who say that eventing makes changes following horse/rider deaths and racing does not - thats not true. Regardless of the changes eventing has brought in there have still been a significant number of deaths (especially human) since their ntroduction.
Teagreen - yes I think it was Tom Scudamore yesterday. Sam WC had a rough fall before the GN too though. Nope - Peter Toole was the one hospitalised - RP reported he was regaining conscousness as he was being moved to hospital.

 

[Cedars]

My one and only complaint about the racing today, because I dont disagree with it and I think actually the horses are much better cared for than they are in most other areas, is that the fallen horses arent named and remembered.

To brush over it seems a little harsh and insensitive, because at the end of the day, someone has gone home without a horse theyve loved and cared for.

 

[Amaranta]

Enjoy? How would you know! Those whips are out frequently, I dont think those extremely young, innocent horses have any choice in the matter. Ban this race, just horrific.

You need to do some research, NH horses are not youngsters, it is not like flat racing.

Having said that, I do not like the National and do not watch or bet on it. To ban it however is very extreme, there are far far worse things that happen to horses and I agree that they do seem to enjoy the race.

 

[3Beasties]

Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.

Racing is NEVER going to be banned - if you don't like it, don't watch it. By Monday, everyone will have forgotten and horses will continue racing, with the odd fatality. And the stable staff and trainer and owner of that horse will grieve, and few others will notice. It happends everyday, not just in the National.

But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.

Well said! I was just thinking how everyone is so concerned about the horses but no-one seems to worry about the jockeys!

Thoughts are with the hospitalised Jockey (do you know who it was?) It looked like a very heavy fall and I believe he was knocked unconscious on landing

 

[Puppy]

It has made me ashamed to be british

Blimey, that's a bit extreme....

 

[Birker2020]

I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day. But I feel it doesn't really matter when you hear that a jockey is hurt.

I have empathy for both horse and human. But the human has the choice of whether he risks his life or not, the horse does not.

I'd rather nothing died to be honest. But in reality that's never going to happen.

All I would say is that I am extremely grateful to God that a) I am not a horse, and b) that I am not your horse in particular

And that is all I have to say.

 

[hollibobs]

Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

I would also like to say that the winning horse was extremely lucky not to have collapsed and died after the race. When you saw it walking whilst being led, it looked like it was about to go down at one point. Disgusting, the excuse about it being hot was just that, an excuse. Yes it was hot but the other horses didn't seem to be so affected as the winner. Maybe questions should be asked around his fitness level. The horse giving it all he could does not wash with me either.

This exactly. I thought he was going to collapse when they were walking him into the winners enclosure
I'm no do gooder & have watched the national for as long as I can remember & fully accept the dangers of horse sport but watching the GN today made for very un comfortable viewing for me.

 

[Cedars]

Hope the jockey is ok, I have to say I thought he had died on landing, the fall was awful.

I also thought the winner was about to drop dead. I was very glad when he was ok.

 

[3Beasties]

I am glad I am not your horse.

Huh?!

 

[ladyt25]

Having just read that one of the jockeys is in a pretty bad way in hospital following a fall (not in the National, I dont think), it puts it into perspective. I'd rather a horse die than a jockey any day.Jockeys being injured is totally different - and we should be praying for him, not arguing.

Was that a fall at Aintree or was that the one in the Thirsk flat race shown on CH4? That was pretty horrendous, the horse obviously severely damage it's leg, fell and just crashed through the white rails. Couldn't see where the jockey was but heard later he'd suffered a shoulder injury (although they didn't go in to much detail). There was a quite a long delay though as they had to wait for the medics to get back in place before the racing could continue.

It is amazing actually the small number of human fatalities in NH racing when you see the falls. As you said, so many people have died recently in eventing it's quite worrying.

 

[Millyard Rejects]

Spring Along was 'forced' to go eventing in his late teens and eventually died of a heart attack in front of hundreds of spectators.

Was there any outrage? No. Quite rightly. Because the old horse looked well and wanted to go eventing, he was bred to do it, they knew the risks with an old horse but they still did it. He died doing what he loved, everyone said. Well, same for the two that died today. It is the same principle.

Fatal falls or horses collapsing are not played live anymore from eventing.
Seems non horsey people dont like it. The same horsey people putting bets on these horses today in their droves?

Did Clare Balding not say how she felt unable to be jubilant about the winner knowing that 2 horses had lost their lives during the race?
Jeez, what do you want, wailing and screaming?

As above- the BBC dont like to get it in the ear regarding complaints about viewers been upset. Thought it was handled quite well. The presenters can only tell the viewers the news when they hear it through their earpieces or from other sources.

When I was at Burghley a few years ago I was the Leaf Pit. I lost count of how many times I heard people say "ahhh, damn I thought that one was going to fall" and the excitement of people saying "ohhh wow I got that fall on camera, that'll get loads of hits on youtube". Same applies to EVERY other cross country course I have been to.

I thought Claire Balding handled the fatalities very well, she showed genuine sadness and respect.

Loads of people attend events and purposely sit by the water jumps!

I would just like to say how sickened I was when I watched the replay of the National that we taped earlier in the day. It has made me ashamed to be british and even more ashamed that I put a bet on. You cannot compare racing to eventing. The two are nothing alike. And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind. So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc. Not because they like taking death defying leaps over fences designed to 'challenge' them.

It is a horrid race, I don't for the life of me know why I watched in and I am digusted with myself for having a bet this morning upon it. RIP the lovely horses who gave their lives in the name of 'sport'.

And I agree with Dovorian about the inane remarks. When Clare Spalding spoke to the jockey he mentioned about having to veer around the fallen horses and the chap to the left of him changed the subject so that it was not 'focused' on. I have to agree that these incidents ARE NOT discussed, the BBC seem to gloss over them and the horses aren't even mentioned. Its easy to forget that these are living breathing animals, who feel pain, fright, worry and goodness knows what else. When you see a fataly injured horse try desparately to rise to its feet in the name of sport -I can't help but think that the British public and the racing industry is doing something wrong somewhere.

And please do not slag me off for my opinions.

Any sport that requires an animal to lift all four feet off the ground is a risk sport-showjumping,eventing,racing jeeez even polo has its deaths!
The reason deaths arent discussed is that the licence fee payer doesnt want to see or know if the horse has died! the only person that genuinely gives a monkeys is the lad or lass who led it up!
And as I put on FB today- all those that have bet on the race should also be handing some if not all their winnings back to Thoroughbred Rehabilitation or WHW-as they often pick up the cast offs from racing.

Someone somewhere will be keeping a tally on eventing deaths as animal aid keeps a tally on racehorse deaths which is called racehorse deathwatch.

www.horsedeathwatch.co.uk

shame these people dont tally the 27 horses pts last month due to rescue centres couldnt take them in? and many were YOUNG TBs that never got to a racecourse

 

[Birker2020]

Blimey, that's a bit extreme....

I suppose it is but I do feel ashamed of this country and its double standards. An nation of animal lovers apparently.

I don't cry at many things I see on TV but I cried this afternoon. And I felt very ashamed too. And the blonde who they interviewed after the race that was dancing around like a maniac screaming that she had won £1900. Yes, love, but at what price? Ask yourself that.

 

[teagreen]

Was that a fall at Aintree or was that the one in the Thirsk flat race shown on CH4? That was pretty horrendous, the horse obviously severely damage it's leg, fell and just crashed through the white rails. Couldn't see where the jockey was but heard later he'd suffered a shoulder injury (although they didn't go in to much detail). There was a quite a long delay though as they had to wait for the medics to get back in place before the racing could continue.

It is amazing actually the small number of human fatalities in NH racing when you see the falls. As you said, so many people have died recently in eventing it's quite worrying.

The one at Aintree in the chase before the National - wasn't aware someone had fallen at Thirsk, hope he is ok too.

I care for my horses very much, I cared for the racehorses I looked after too. Until you have seen a distraught lass who has lost her horse, you will not understand how loved each and every horse is. I'd rather they werent injured too (btw, did you see Channinbar refuse to race twice? Don't have a choice?! Ha!) but I'd rather they died than the jockeys. You can replace a horse. You can't replace a brother/sister/son/daughter.