Sue dysan - made up expert

[windand rain]

So, she gets struck off and all the questionably ratioed riders:their horses heave (no pun) a sigh of relief. Their horses, however...

The experiment was hugely flawed from the start was unethical and the results were dubious at best. I hope it doesn't make horses suffer but it wont make anything based on her judgement valid which is a shame. The weight to horse ratio is fairly clear from the original thought I believe instigated by the army of 20% as a max including tack and equipment. I also think it was appallingly badly done caused injury to the horses and did not have a control. Time for a clean research programme with thousands of examples to work from preferrably pressure points on an anatomically correct artificial horse

 

[ozpoz]

The experiment was hugely flawed from the start was unethical and the results were dubious at best. I hope it doesn't make horses suffer but it wont make anything based on her judgement valid which is a shame. The weight to horse ratio is fairly clear from the original thought I believe instigated by the army of 20% as a max including tack and equipment. I also think it was appallingly badly done caused injury to the sorry horses and did not have a control. Time for a clean research programme with thousands of examples to work from preferrably pressure points on an anatomically correct artificial horse

The experiment was hugely flawed from the start was unethical and the results were dubious at best.

Sorry, that is simply not true. The study replicated what is seen everyday on yards,riding schools and Facebook, apart from the horses being dismounted as soon as they showed signs of discomfort or momentary lameness. None of them suffered any long term effects or lameness at the end of the study and they results were clear with huge potential to move on from the ancient history of 20%.
It was also passed by the AHT Ethics Committee.
Exhaustion, stress, overwork, ridiculous workload, who knows?
I think the result is very harsh, for someone who has literally devoted their life to horse welfare. Very sad news.

 

[conniegirl]

If you have any sort of science background it is very easy to see that the study was hugely flawed.
For a start the riders were all different heights, so would have sat differently in the saddle. How do you tell if the discomfort/lameness was from the weight or from the position of the rider? A rider of a good weight for the horse can still cause issues for a horse if they are sat on the cantle due to the length of their thigh.

 

[ozpoz]

Yes, I believe that was described in the study. Have you actually read it?

 

[Shilasdair]

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.

 

[ycbm]

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest. It becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.

Do you need some of my prosecco?

 

[brighteyes]

I think the result was because she showed no remorse and it was a planned act of deception but maybe I mis understood that, however her crimes were rather more a crime against society as apposed to a crime against the animal welfare but sadly in criminal court too those crimes often carry the heaviest penalties. I am sure she did not falsify any research even though it was badly flawed but it does call into question that all her research was equally flawed

And yet, the 'crimes against animal welfare' she might have prevented, continue. A cynical part of me wonders if there's some 'adversely weighted' person wanted to discredit this study and sabotaged it.

 

[MuddyMonster]

A very sad end to a career that saw her achieve so much and undoubtedly help so many.

From what I've read, it sounds as though her mental health may have had played a part. If that's the case, I hope she's able to seek some help.

 

[Illusion100]

Sue has been struck off.

 

[hollyandivy123]

And yet, the 'crimes against animal welfare' she might have prevented, continue. A cynical part of me wonders if there's some 'adversely weighted' person wanted to discredit this study and sabotaged it.

Impersonating a home office inspector is not an acceptable. ......

 

[MuddyMonster]

Impersonating a home office inspector is not an acceptable. ......

This, 100%

That's very different from potential career rivalry or having upset someone else in the field.

Terribly sad enf of her career, but very little other option left but to strike her off in the circumstances.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A cynical part of me wonders if there's some 'adversely weighted' person wanted to discredit this study and sabotaged it.

Have you read the full report?

The 'sabotage' was entirely by SD. She had a very fair hearing.

 

[PurBee]

Its intriguing in the report, she stated she had/has no memory at all writing the ‘fake’ letter, citing a fake inspector with a real address which was actually an address of an old collegue from years back.

Most other info pertaining to her personal life is redacted, yet what small info is printed tells of her under enormous stress, both work and personal life.

Stress can reach high levels relatable to trauma in which the person then experiences what’s akin to depersonalisation/de-realisation and borders into disassociative episodes. Disassociation is often coupled with memory loss for the person.
During disassociative episodes the only thing the person is ’running’ on is memory - so perhaps thats why an old yet real address was used, and her ‘solution’ to her research licence problem was to lie, which to her real personality was absolutely abhorrent to even consoder - yet these elements, when trauma states are experienced, become a soup of personality shift/memory alterations etc.


I’m wondering if she experienced such a degree of stress that these other personality-changing co-morbidities attributable to trauma/high stress episodes, well documented by the psych industry, was the cause of her apparent out of character behaviour.

Im inclined to believe she suffered from the above because most (professional) people who intend to lie about anything, eventually, when caught, and up against the law, to gain a lenient sentence admit remorse and wholly to doing wrong and lying with intent…certainly people of good previous character/behaviour.
She continued to protest no memory of writing the letter, and never intending to lie, aswell as constantly stating she’s extremely truthful in all her dealings.
This tallies even moreso she is being honest. We all eventually ‘give it up’ when caught - especially when under pressure.
Common lying criminals easily give it up (if theyre scared of jail time) despite trying to lie their way out of it….but when their backs are against the wall, they give it up hoping honesty and remorse at the 11th hour will garner some sympathy from judgement and a lenient sentence.

It was noted in the report her ‘offensive manner’ when it was suggested she intended to lie. It was noted she showed no remorse. This was obviously outrageous to the committee who are understandably ignorant of dissociative psych episodes.
For someone with an impeccable career of high regard, confirmed by notable persons in her field for her integrity, to suddenly turn criminal, without their being mitigating circumstance, which i am inclined to think were psychological - the chance of her being intentionally dishonest, is extraordinarily slim.
Surely, in her right mind, under normal circumstances, she would have postponed progress of the study, had the relevent licenses granted and proceeded, allbeit delayed.


Unfortunately, all other people giving evidence were her professional peers - and if personal allies of hers had given evidence of her changed behaviour during that time of ‘extraordinary stress’, im sure a very different outcome would have occurred, rather than being struck off after such a career.

Many ‘high functioning’ professionals who do experience these psychotic breaks rarely recognise the severity of the stress they’re under and try with all their might to plough on, creating more stress. It’s unusual for them therefore to seek psychotherapy of any kind as their perceived workload stress wont recognise the mental stress process that’s occurring, as often its slow, insidious and isn’t just one day wake up in psychosis!
In these states many actions can be taken by a person that’s completely inaccessible to their conscious memory.
Its very similar to memory wipe that abise victims experience.
Stress can become so abusive to us we wont recall all actions. We think our personal mentality is robust until overwhelming stress gnaws at it. It’s more common than we know, modern day stress, accumulating day by day, can turn even the most robust mentality inside out, if there’s no reprieve.

Many are fortunate not to have life circumstance stress bordering onto trauma spilled-over into depersonalisation/disassociation episode but be grateful you haven’t, and not judge so harshly, the ’apparently’ insane actions of those that are experiencing such deep, overwhelming stress.
Should a mistake made during such an episode be able to wipe out and taint a person’s previous impeccable career?

It often does, and that’s a shame…whoever it happens to.

 

[Illusion100]

Sue was doing independent lameness work ups in the Essex area at least recently.

https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.amp...-letter-Home-Office-inspector-struck-off.html

This was published today stating she has been struck off.

I guess time will tell whether she follows the rules or not.

 

[PurBee]

And yet, the 'crimes against animal welfare' she might have prevented, continue. A cynical part of me wonders if there's some 'adversely weighted' person wanted to discredit this study and sabotaged it.

Admittedly, its a highly controversial and sensitive subject matter she was proposing to study - and studies are the start of the ball-rolling eventually towards laws being made.
Imagine if there were weight limits % to ride horses imposed by law? How would that impact the whole industry? Hugely, i imagine.

Do many studies get published without correct licensing? Is this a rare one-off for her to be brought to disciplinary action due to this? If yes, then i’d be cynical too.

 

[ester]

Sue has been struck off.

yeah, we already said that ?

 

[ester]

Have you read the full report?

The 'sabotage' was entirely by SD. She had a very fair hearing.

I think the suggestion of sabotage is pretty unfair on the reviewer! They didn't do anything wrong.

 

[ester]

How do we know the committee was unaware that dissociative psych episodes exist? I'm sure if she wished she could have made a robust case for that psych wise that might have been looked on more favourably but I didn't see anything to suggest that she had done so albeit I probably do need to read it again.

 

[BronsonNutter]

Its intriguing in the report, she stated she had/has no memory at all writing the ‘fake’ letter, citing a fake inspector with a real address which was actually an address of an old collegue from years back.
Most other info pertaining to her personal life is redacted, yet what small info is printed tells of her under enormous stress, both work and personal life.
Stress can reach high levels relatable to trauma in which the person then experiences what’s akin to depersonalisation/de-realisation and borders into disassociative episodes. Disassociation is often coupled with memory loss for the person.
During disassociative episodes the only thing the person is ’running’ on is memory - so perhaps thats why an old yet real address was used, and her ‘solution’ to her research licence problem was to lie, which to her real personality was absolutely abhorrent to even consoder - yet these elements, when trauma states are experienced, become a soup of personality shift/memory alterations etc.
I’m wondering if she experienced such a degree of stress that these other personality-changing co-morbidities attributable to trauma/high stress episodes, well documented by the psych industry, was the cause of her apparent out of character behaviour.

Thank you for posting this regarding the potential mental health issues that may be related/involved in this wrongdoing. Blanking out sections in the disciplinary committee reports is not common (usually it is to protect a third party's anominity) so there must be some sort of medical involvement. Sue Dyson must have been under immense stress at the time; the AHT was going under and for many years it has probably only been kept afloat on the equine side due to her status and research published. Imagine the turmoil at not having obtained the supposedly required licenses (as at the time no one thought they were required) potentially putting the hospital to which you have dedicated so much of your life's work to, and all your colleagues jobs, livelihoods etc, on the line. They had to rehome all of the research ponies! You'd try to correct it. She did wrong but is not a bad person, and this does not mean that all of her previous years of research and devotion to equine health should be discredited. I hope wherever she is now she has some support at this time.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pages 2 and 3. Part of the hearing was held in private.



Application for some of the hearing to be in private
4. Before hearing from Dr Dyson and the two expert medical witnesses relied on in this case Mr Edis QC made an application for the medical evidence and those parts of Dr Dyson’s evidence that related to her health and/or personal life to be heard in private. Mr Bradly did not oppose the application. The members of the press present were given the opportunity to make representations and one did raise some initial objections. However, after hearing the application in greater detail the member of the press indicated that he no longer opposed the application

 

[ester]

Thanks bronson and TP

 

[shortstuff99]

Admittedly, its a highly controversial and sensitive subject matter she was proposing to study - and studies are the start of the ball-rolling eventually towards laws being made.
Imagine if there were weight limits % to ride horses imposed by law? How would that impact the whole industry? Hugely, i imagine.

Do many studies get published without correct licensing? Is this a rare one-off for her to be brought to disciplinary action due to this? If yes, then i’d be cynical too.

No 99% of studies won't even get to a review without the correct licenses .

 

[shortstuff99]

Unfortunately whether she meant well and her previous work was stellar, there is always going to be suspicions about it now.

 

[PurBee]

How do we know the committee was unaware that dissociative psych episodes exist? I'm sure if she wished she could have made a robust case for that psych wise that might have been looked on more favourably but I didn't see anything to suggest that she had done so albeit I probably do need to read it again.

Due to the redacted personal info we cant know for sure what personal mitigating circumstances were present, and if official psych counsel were advising.
The fact that the committee don’t mention something along the lines of ‘taking into account mrs D’s psychological state…and evidence of altered behaviour…etc’
All that is mentioned is ‘in light of the stress she was experiencing…’

I do question if she ever got professional help during this time, as she could have used those sessions and resulting diagnosis of (temporary)state of mind to aid her case, and the fact that there’s very little redacted in the committee’s conclusions kf the ‘evidence’ suggests she never sought professional psych help, or put forward their findings, as evidence for herself ‘not acting herself’.

Like i said, high-functioning folk really are able to take high stress anyway….and plough through remarkably with stress levels that would flatten most, but the risk is, at any time - it can peak and break them, causing temporary episodes of weeks/months of altered behaviour/perception etc. The shame associated with these things stops most professionals from seeking help too. They’re the ones who normally help others, and rarely ask for help, even when they really need it.

Its a possibility is all im saying. She may have intentionally lied etc…but knowing it wouldnt pass through the channels it needed to, why would she self-sabotage like that?
Especially considering her reputation. People only gain a glowing reputation career-long like that due to being so ‘good and straight’. To suddenly become evasive of protocol by lying and then defensive attitude to the committee, doesnt make sense at all.

 

[ester]

I skipped over the redacted bits too quick I think

I've spent enough time in academia to observe it in action if that makes sense.

 

[Renvers]

Terrible end to a distinguished career it seems like one seemingly little lie can just snowball.

To any researchers here, is the paperwork etc for a Home Office licence really onerous? Would filling it in, or accepting they had made a mistake and just starting again have been so terrible?

I think of how many times HHO posts referred to her other research as a benchmark for improving some aspect of horse welfare. If that work is now tainted by association it will be really sad just because they couldn't/wouldn't do one step in the process.

 

[shortstuff99]

Terrible end to a distinguished career it seems like one seemingly little lie can just snowball.

To any researchers here, is the paperwork etc for a Home Office licence really onerous? Would filling it in, or accepting they had made a mistake and just starting again have been so terrible?

I think of how many times HHO posts referred to her other research as a benchmark for improving some aspect of horse welfare. If that work is now tainted by association it will be really sad just because they couldn't/wouldn't do one step in the process.

It can be onerous as you have to deal with government departments which is always annoying! You also have to show why you need that animal, why you need to do it, risk assessment etc etc

 

[Renvers]

It can be onerous as you have to deal with government departments which is always annoying! You also have to show why you need that animal, why you need to do it, risk assessment etc etc

Thanks, it was hard to assess why a experienced researcher wouldn't try to address the problem with trying to negotiate getting the approval rather than asking the HO to overlook it (as I think was quoted) and then impersonating them. Just seems a trivial step to end her career over after so much success.

 

[Illusion100]

yeah, we already said that ?

My bad

 

[Boulty]

I know someone who used to work with her years ago. Apparently she’s always been quite a rude person & a bit of a bully & empathy has never been her strong point. (& from sounds of it she probably was arrogant enough to think the rules shouldn’t apply / that she could blag it)

I don’t think there’s been any sort of conspiracy here & can’t see that RCVS had any option but to strike her off with the lengths she went to with her fabrications.

Also just because she was generally thought of as an ok vet does not automatically make her a nice person... I’ve met plenty of very good vets who can tantrum like you wouldn’t believe at relatively minor inconveniences / generally lacking in people skills