Sue dysan - made up expert

[honetpot]

no one will ever convince me that riding a horse correctly is bad for it, the time and effort taken to produce a properly schooled horse is a passage of joy in itself, and to see an animal grow and change in posture and self esteem beats winning rosettes any day

if you have never gone down that road don`t tell others it does not exist, if you are not knowledgeable enough to travel it why try to tell others it can`t be done

horses are like people in the way they can enjoy movement and mental stimulation and have the intelligence to learn and to feel the benefits of regular gymnastics, and generally taking part in life thats what its for, not sitting on the sidelines or in a stable 23 hours a day or hanging around in the mud bored stiff, and when man and horse come together something wonderful happens and both rise above the everyday

of course if you are too lazy to make the effort l don`t try to drag others down with you

I think its a bit like a ballerina dancing in point shoes, if it was natural that is how we all would walk. As a child I used to want to do ballet, so of course I would balance on my toes, but not for long. Of course a trained ballet dancer has had many years of exercise and training, before they go en pointe, but their feet are often a battle ground of injury to achieve that outward looking perfection.
https://humankinetics.me/2018/09/25/starting-pointe-work/
To a degree their, ' way of going' although looking good on stage, they often waddle like ducks with open hips in real life.

As children we scramble on a ponies back, and the pony lopes along in a way that is most comfortable, usually with its nose stuck out, unless you use gadgets a child has little chance of changing its shape, and the weight is negligible.
When we want the horse to 'perform' and add extra weight, it either has to develop muscles to cope with that extra burden, or if it can not, it will hurt and it will object. I think there is an attitude now it's the horses fault and not that the human who is in control has either picked the wrong horse for the job it's supposed to do, or they have not spent enough time conditioning it with exercise to enable it to do that job.
Hunting is perhaps the closest in to days world where a horse does a full days work. To work one day a week, it has perhaps three months of increased exercise, a bit like couch to 20km , six days a week. How many people drag a horse out a field give it a brush, and then expect it to perform to the standard they want, that may be carrying 13st for 10miles or a forty-five minutes lesson, most of the time they are just asking too much too quickly.
The ONS said the average man in England was 5ft 9in (175.3cm) tall and weighed 13.16 stone (83.6kg).
The average woman in England weighed 11 stone (70.2kg) and was 5ft 3in tall (161.6cm).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11534042
I do not know if being ridden is detrimental to horses, there is no real large scale researched evidence, most studies are based on TB's and the racing industry. What I do know is asking any animal to do something that stresses it body, and sometimes its mind, comes with a responsibility for its welfare, and the end result the rider is wanting, may not be in its best welfare interests, no matter how much the rider weighs or what task they want it to complete.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I can’t see an update on Sue Dyson’s hearing, but by chance the rider weight study was linked to by a poster on my FB feed.

Now, I have no problems with the very heavy rider coming forward for the study. But a 27.5% match should never have been allowed to happen, even very briefly . The rider will have done as she was instructed, by a very well respected equine vet.

 

[TPO]

If my maths is right (and every chance it's not!) that indicates that Very Heavy Rider could/should only be riding horses that are (when fit and healthy) in excess of 700kg?

I guess that's possible? I still dont think there would ever be a saddle to fit a rider of the proportions in the photo.

 

[conniegirl]

If my maths is right (and every chance it's not!) that indicates that Very Heavy Rider could/should only be riding horses that are (when fit and healthy) in excess of 700kg?

I guess that's possible? I still dont think there would ever be a saddle to fit a rider of the proportions in the photo.

A horse over 700kg (fit not fat) would be quite easy to find. My 15.2hh small hunter was nearly 600kg fully fit, i would think a 16.2hh or 17hh version of him would be around 700kg
A saddle to fit both horse and rider, i very much doubt it.

 

[Annagain]

If my maths is right (and every chance it's not!) that indicates that Very Heavy Rider could/should only be riding horses that are (when fit and healthy) in excess of 700kg?

I guess that's possible? I still dont think there would ever be a saddle to fit a rider of the proportions in the photo.

It is possible, all three of mine (only ride the one now but the other two are still around) are between 650 and 700 at their ideal weight and while they're big boys, they're definitely not the biggest horses I've seen. This is Archie, 16.3 ID type (unrecorded breeding). In 15 years, his weight has never really changed (6kg difference at most!) so he's always around his ideal weight, which is between 668 and 674. He's hardly a giant, so there are big strong horses out there. Whether they should be carrying quite that much weight (and as you say, whether a saddle could be found to fit) is another question. He wore (now retired at 25) a 17.5" saddle. He's quite short backed so I doubt he'd have taken a much bigger one.

Monty (17hh) is more of a famine and feast beast, He's weighed in between 652kg and 720kg. 652kg was coming out of winter when he looked a bit poor, 720kg was Sept when we like him a bit heavier to cope with losing the weight we know he will over the winter. His fighting fit eventing weight was around 690kg. He also wears a 17.5" saddle but could probably go to 18". I always felt Archie to be the stronger of the two though. Having said that M is 24 and still jumping so he's not fared too badly (although never carried more than about 110kgs max.) This is him at 720kg.

 

[honetpot]

My 16hand maxi cob could easily carry a 18inch saddle, he was some sort of Belgium Draft cross, and was about 650kg on grass and no hard feed. This is on a weigh tape but I think he could have weighed 25-50kg more.
I was astonished when my then three year old Highland was weighed at a show, I like them on the slim side, and he weighed 465kg, at around 13.2. Both these breeds have relatively short thick cannon bones in comparison to their size.
For cattle, they can do body scans to determine how much fat to muscle they have. I would be interesting to scan some horses and see which ones are actually fat, as opposed to well muscled.

 

[brighteyes]

Poor bloody horse on the far right... even momentarily, for comparison only.

 

[brighteyes]

My 16hand maxi cob could easily carry a 18inch saddle, he was some sort of Belgium Draft cross, and was about 650kg on grass and no hard feed. This is on a weigh tape but I think he could have weighed 25-50kg more.
I was astonished when my then three year old Highland was weighed at a show, I like them on the slim side, and he weighed 465kg, at around 13.2. Both these breeds have relatively short thick cannon bones in comparison to their size.
For cattle, they can do body scans to determine how much fat to muscle they have. It would be interesting to scan some horses and see which ones are actually fat, as opposed to well muscled.

Oh boy, would it!

 

[BronsonNutter]

If my maths is right (and every chance it's not!) that indicates that Very Heavy Rider could/should only be riding horses that are (when fit and healthy) in excess of 700kg?

700kg would still put them in between the 'heavy' and 'very heavy' category in this study though - ~20% body weight... without allowing for tack. To get nearer 15% you're talking 950kg horse - how many of those exist and are rideable?

I'm really hoping this whole thing is some sort of mistake and there's an honest explanation for it, otherwise it will tarnish her whole career and discredit some research (admittedly pilot research) which we do actually need for animal welfare.

 

[sbloom]

You are coming at it from a different angle, though? The vet and bodyworker may be unaware that it will be difficult to fit a saddle to the horse that will fit the rider.

Of course, but things need to change, because our current way of doing things isn't working. I see horses recently purchased that haven't a chance in hell of carrying the saddle ideal for the rider, and I see long term issues caused by heavy riders, the bodyworker finds the issues but, just like me, is left to decide whether to tell the rider they are part of the problem. And we all HATE shaming riders, that is never what we want to do, I hope I have found the right ways to talk about this to customers, but I still choose very carefully how. when and if.

about 5 mins ago i sold a treed race exercise saddle to a race horse trainer, two weeks ago i sold a treeless one to another trainer,
what do you think about the use of treeless as opposed to treed race ex saddles, if you don`t mind please

I'm not the biggest fan of treeless, they can work, I have no experience whatsoever of them for racing, the racing industry is almost entirely separate in terms of saddle fitting, to what we do as regular saddle fitters.

If my maths is right (and every chance it's not!) that indicates that Very Heavy Rider could/should only be riding horses that are (when fit and healthy) in excess of 700kg?

I guess that's possible? I still dont think there would ever be a saddle to fit a rider of the proportions in the photo.

And yet the larger horses aren't bred to take riders, they're drafts, and built to pull, not to carry. I'm sure we could change that, but look at all the issues that the 17hh+ warmbloods can have, and ultimately their lineage goes back to these crosses.

My 16hand maxi cob could easily carry a 18inch saddle, he was some sort of Belgium Draft cross, and was about 650kg on grass and no hard feed. This is on a weigh tape but I think he could have weighed 25-50kg more.

And of course 18" saddles vary massively, an 18" Fylde Haydon with a thin foam panel is A tiny and B not suitable for carrying a heavy rider especially outside of the show ring. So really "an 18" saddle" is almost meaningless, sadly. And why saddle fitting is complicated, some riders have a brilliant instinct for it and can DIY but mostly it's a complex job for people who really understand horses, saddles and riders.

 

[teapot]

So , just to reiterate , I am talking about colleges here . Where does the 14st student expect to find employment that includes RIDING on completing their course ?

In my experience of sifting applicants pre interview for job roles, they will struggle. It's not just about the weight, it's about their fitness, and general health too. That's assuming they get on their college course in the first place and don't lose three stone in the process of doing the course when they realise what working with horses is actually like

Weight limits are also one of the reasons why exam centres are dropping in number - they don't want unknown riders on their horses, at all levels.

 

[Tiddlypom]

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-vi...mittee-to-hold-two-hearings-in-november-2020/

Update: The hearing in respect of Sue Dyson has been adjourned until further notice due to a member of the Disciplinary Committee being taken ill and it was not considered appropriate to continue the hearing virtually. A notification will be issued ahead of the adjourned hearing taking place.

 

[ozpoz]

Poor bloody horse on the far right... even momentarily, for comparison only.

 

[Shilasdair]

Just saying that my Shire X Tb will vary between 750 and 800kg at any point.
She's around 16.2 to 16.3hh and to look at her, you'd not think she was so heavy as she's proportionate but she takes a 7ft 3" rug and XL headcollars etc.
She's not overweight just solid.

 

[windand rain]

How many times do you see a rider that heavy ride a horse that lightweight. I would suggest not often although I have seen endurance arabs carrying far more than was reasonable

 

[Steerpike]

For FEI 3*160km endurance rides horses no matter what size have to carry minimum 75kg, saddle and rider together, the riders are all weighed before the ride and sometimes spot checked during, and at the end if placed.

 

[windand rain]

no maximum though is there steerpike

For FEI 3*160km endurance rides horses no matter what size have to carry minimum 75kg, saddle and rider together, the riders are all weighed before the ride and sometimes spot checked during, and at the end if placed.

 

[Steerpike]

No no maximum but if you are on a 14h fine Arab and others are on 16h Arabs it's not a fair playing field. And they have now brought in a minimum weight for junior FEI rides. The whole weight and horses is a massive can of worms.

 

[Malindaba]

Yes the heaviest rider rode in an saddle that did not fit her .

I've watched the webinar about this study, the problem is that yes the heaviest rider was in a saddle that didn't fit her, but it fitted the horse, you can't just put a bigger saddle on the horse if it means its going to be sitting beyond the last rib, that won't make it any better for the horse. The saddle must fit the horse!

 

[Gingerwitch]

Has anyone heard anymore about the outcome?

 

[Malindaba]

I've watched the webinar on:

The horse only becomes lame during the study and the tack fits the horse, a bigger saddle that fitted the rider but not the horse wouldn't have made it any better!

Being desperate for some rider weight data because it comes up *all the time*. The same reason people hang onto the 20%/15%/whichever one is in vogue currently.
And the name, the name stood for a lot.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Has anyone heard anymore about the outcome?

Reconvened hearing due later this month. ETA Whoops, no, that was another hearing from 2020.

 

[teapot]

Has anyone heard anymore about the outcome?

Not sure it's happened yet?

I notice she's down as one of the speakers for the PC Coaching Conference tonight.

 

[Chuffy99]

I do hope this works out well for Sue Dyson, she was the vet we were sent to as a last resort by our local but very good practice after they ran out of ideas.
She basically diagnosed the problem watching him walk into the clinic, confirmed by MRI.
And yes basically if you’re asking if you’re too big to ride you probably are.

 

[Goldenstar]

I've watched the webinar about this study, the problem is that yes the heaviest rider was in a saddle that didn't fit her, but it fitted the horse, you can't just put a bigger saddle on the horse if it means its going to be sitting beyond the last rib, that won't make it any better for the horse. The saddle must fit the horse!

Of course the saddle must fit the horse .
It must also fit the rider , saddles that don’t fit the rider especially if the rider is heavy make horses sore .
The rider must be in balance or it’s detrimental to the horse .
If ( and it was not case in this example ) the rider needs a longer saddle than the horse can carry this is usually when a rider is tall and a horse is short backed then the flaps and blocking of the saddle can usually be made to accommodate them both if it can’t then that rider is not the rider for that horse .
But that was not the case in the study .

 

[sbloom]

Of course the saddle must fit the horse .
It must also fit the rider , saddles that don’t fit the rider especially if the rider is heavy make horses sore .
The rider must be in balance or it’s detrimental to the horse .
If ( and it was not case in this example ) the rider needs a longer saddle than the horse can carry this is usually when a rider is tall and a horse is short backed then the flaps and blocking of the saddle can usually be made to accommodate them both if it can’t then that rider is not the rider for that horse .
But that was not the case in the study .

Yep, you can't always get a saddle that completely fits the rider, but you can usually correct the basic balance issues that crop up with a heavier and/or taller rider - a short heavy rider often compresses the front of the saddle, needing more lift there, easily corrected with a thicker pad in some cases. A taller rider is more likely to sit too far back pushing the back of the saddle down, again can often be corrected with shims. However the latter case can be tricky because if the rider's heavy a more shock absorbing pad is ideal, one that spreads pressure and bounces back, and often those a thicker, I prefer sheepskin overall. This will tip a saddle back MORE, and so shimming must be done very carefully, a random rear riser, even if the balance looks good, may cause bridging and pressure points.

However I would argue that taller riders are the ones that need the bigger saddles, there is a more direct relationship with hip measurement in my experience, whatever the TG website might say, a slim hip measurement is best with a seat size that suits, and a bigger/more forwards (more often the latter) flap to suit, with, as you cay, block placement to allow space for the long femur. It's never as simple as measuring your thigh length and that being your biggest determinant in seat size selection.

Long term then rider weight or height could be a deal breaker, but for a one-off study corrections could be made in order to make better assessments/conclusions.

 

[ester]

Update TL;DR she faked her ethics approval letter from the home office
https://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-li...RVRivAiGXGgn8xigyQcUKs0Zwfdvq-seK9VgfLkJ0puXc

ETA details of said letter on pg 6.

 

[hollyandivy123]

Update TL;DR she faked her ethics approval letter from the home office
https://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-li...RVRivAiGXGgn8xigyQcUKs0Zwfdvq-seK9VgfLkJ0puXc

ETA details of said letter on pg 6.

All I can say is stupid stupid ...I best not finish the sentence

 

[ester]

Her defence seems to centre around her writing the letter in some sort of memory haze so that she no longer can remember writing it, or using an address from her address book (of an ex employee) while attending international conferences as speaker.
And how a senior clinician was taking maternity leave for the fourth time.

 

[Tiddlypom]

She's been struck off .

It was the only option after she did what she did. What a sad and ignominious end to such a distinguished career.