missshell
Well-Known Member
I've just been reading the local paper and theres an advert for springer spaniels. It says they are docked. is this not illegal now?
Tail Docking
- Thread starter missshell
- Start date
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
It is perfectly legal to dock dogs which are going to be working animals. In practical terms if the breeder has a shotgun licence then all the puppies can be legally docked - he/she just has to declare that they will all go to working homes.
Whether they do or not is another matter
Whether they do or not is another matter
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily, under the AWA it makes allowances for puppies that are to be working dogs to be docked under the age of 5 days old. Working dogs include hunt, point, retrieve dogs hence inculding the springer. If it was done legally then a vet would have had to sign certificates for each puppy, that the owner/breeder had shown sufficient evidence (letter from game keeper etc) that they were to be working dogs. The owner then has up to 3 months to gain evidence of assessing/training the puppies to work. The puppies also have to be microchipped to identify them.
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
And it is illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock the tails.
Hope that is clear enough!!!!
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
And it is illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock the tails.
Hope that is clear enough!!!!
merlinsquest
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the case, but the way they get round it for show dogs is that they have to do a simple retrieve and they then get on with the showing part of the class!!!
Clever
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the case, but the way they get round it for show dogs is that they have to do a simple retrieve and they then get on with the showing part of the class!!!
Clever
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the case, but the way they get round it for show dogs is that they have to do a simple retrieve and they then get on with the showing part of the class!!!
Clever
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that only in the Gamekeeper Ring at Crufts though?
TBH most docked gundog breeds crossover into the working side too, it is only really Spaniels that have a different working and showing type.
[ QUOTE ]
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot be show dogs)
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the case, but the way they get round it for show dogs is that they have to do a simple retrieve and they then get on with the showing part of the class!!!
Clever
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that only in the Gamekeeper Ring at Crufts though?
TBH most docked gundog breeds crossover into the working side too, it is only really Spaniels that have a different working and showing type.
missshell
Well-Known Member
QR
Hmmm ok the ad says nothing about them being working dogs.
Hmmm ok the ad says nothing about them being working dogs.
Horseyscot
Well-Known Member
As Splotchy said, although not legal at all in Scotland now (bl**dy ridiculous law if you ask me
) .
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
As someone who is not anti-docking, couldnt agree more HorseyScot
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Hmmm ok the ad says nothing about them being working dogs.
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But you would dock them so as not to exclude the people who want working dogs.
After Otto I would never have another Springer with a long tail, whether I planned to work it or not.
QR
Hmmm ok the ad says nothing about them being working dogs.
[/ QUOTE ]
But you would dock them so as not to exclude the people who want working dogs.
After Otto I would never have another Springer with a long tail, whether I planned to work it or not.
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
Only way to really know if it was done legally is to find out if the puppies are out of working parents whether the puppies were docked by a vet, and ask if they are microchipped. If the answer is yes to all then legal, if not then could be dubious in which case trading standards may be interested!
maddielove
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot
[/ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a reeeeally dumb question? Does this mean I cannot do things like fun shows with my docked doglet? He was docked for medical resons at the age of 7 months last october.
Docked puppies/dogs born since april 07 are not allowed to be shown at any show where the public pay entry except where they are doing working demonstrations. (cannot
[/ QUOTE ]
Can I ask a reeeeally dumb question? Does this mean I cannot do things like fun shows with my docked doglet? He was docked for medical resons at the age of 7 months last october.
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
I think with fun dog shows you pay to enter the class, the public don't pay to enter the show, so in that case perfectly legal. It is still perfectly legal for a dog (any breed) to have its tail amputated for injury/health reasons by a vet.
GinaB
Well-Known Member
Tail docking has been illegal in NI for a while, but breeders just travelled them to ROI instead.
Steeleydan
Well-Known Member
Totally agree Heinmeister, I wouldnt buy another Springer unless it has a docked tail, they look like Retreivers with a long tail. My Jerry Springer has a docked tail and his owner/breeder did it himself although its a bit too short, but I dont care. He is 10 now so was within legal docking by owners. My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
Oneofthepack
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Totally agree Heinmeister, I wouldnt buy another Springer unless it has a docked tail, they look like Retreivers with a long tail. My Jerry Springer has a docked tail and his owner/breeder did it himself although its a bit too short, but I dont care. He is 10 now so was within legal docking by owners. My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
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And to disagree with everyone else
this is why I'm AGAINST tail docking. Because for all the good reasons there's always the people who think there's nothing wrong with cutting puppies tails off with kitchen scissors (and yes I know it's illegal now but it still happens) and continue to support docking simply because it 'looks wrong'.
Totally agree Heinmeister, I wouldnt buy another Springer unless it has a docked tail, they look like Retreivers with a long tail. My Jerry Springer has a docked tail and his owner/breeder did it himself although its a bit too short, but I dont care. He is 10 now so was within legal docking by owners. My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
And to disagree with everyone else
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
I understand the reasons for docking the tails of working dogs but I am very glad Henry still has his tail. He is always in and out of cover and so far he has had no problems (fingers crossed this continues!).
I know others may disagree but I see no justification for docking a dog's tail for purely cosmetic reasons, any more than docking a horse's tail which was also once common. Working dogs are different as there is a good reason for docking and I believe in the case of spaniels at least, that their tails are not docked so short.
I know others may disagree but I see no justification for docking a dog's tail for purely cosmetic reasons, any more than docking a horse's tail which was also once common. Working dogs are different as there is a good reason for docking and I believe in the case of spaniels at least, that their tails are not docked so short.
missshell
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
Puppy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
[/ QUOTE ]
I should say
SD, did you not express disapproval for his methods?
[ QUOTE ]
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
[/ QUOTE ]
I should say
SD, did you not express disapproval for his methods?
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as a matter of interest, why is that so awful? How does that technique differ from the one which a vet would use?
When I was young (less than 10 years old) my mum bred boxers, and took me with her to the vets one time when they were docked and dew clawed (at MY insistance
) As long as you use the correct technique, snipping between the vertebrae of the tail, using scissors dipped in antiseptic is no different to what the vet did.
I always wonder why everyone is so violently against tail docking when dew clawing of puppies is perfectly accepted and goes on without a murmur? The thing I hate most about having rescue greyhounds is that usually they are not dew clawed, and having had one who ripped out a dew claw on three seperate occasions then I cannot understand why they arent done. But the mechanics are just the same as tail docking (I was going to explain what happens, but thought I had better not for the more sensitive readers!)
[ QUOTE ]
My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh My God thats awful
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as a matter of interest, why is that so awful? How does that technique differ from the one which a vet would use?
When I was young (less than 10 years old) my mum bred boxers, and took me with her to the vets one time when they were docked and dew clawed (at MY insistance
I always wonder why everyone is so violently against tail docking when dew clawing of puppies is perfectly accepted and goes on without a murmur? The thing I hate most about having rescue greyhounds is that usually they are not dew clawed, and having had one who ripped out a dew claw on three seperate occasions then I cannot understand why they arent done. But the mechanics are just the same as tail docking (I was going to explain what happens, but thought I had better not for the more sensitive readers!)
missshell
Well-Known Member
I just don't agree with tail docking in general (unless for medical reasons) and I can't say I agree with dew claw removal either.
Oneofthepack
Well-Known Member
The person who posted that their ex cut off the pups tails himself did say they never had a problem so perhaps they knew what they were doing but for each one of those I'll bet there's 10 who didn't have a clue and hacked the pups tails off causing all manner of problems. I've certainly read enough stories and seen the photos of the damage.
Totally agree with the dewclaws thing though. My mums lurcher hadn't had hers done and has ripped them both off which was hideous
Still think all that should be done at the vets though.
Totally agree with the dewclaws thing though. My mums lurcher hadn't had hers done and has ripped them both off which was hideous
FestiveSpirit
Well-Known Member
Interestingly it was Talisker who kept ripping his out - he only had one, and judging by the way it needed a general anaesthetic to clip his claws when we got him, I imagine the other was a bodged dew claw removal job
Cant comment about insisting on a vet to do both jobs however
as someone I know does all their own dew claws and has never had a problem...
Cant comment about insisting on a vet to do both jobs however
jvoyce
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Cant comment about insisting on a vet to do both jobs however
as someone I know does all their own dew claws and has never had a problem...
[/ QUOTE ]
Problem with this is that it's both cruel and illegal
Cant comment about insisting on a vet to do both jobs however
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Problem with this is that it's both cruel and illegal
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
Personally I don't give a toss what my dog looks like, however I hate seeing his tail look like this...
That is after strapping, applying sprays, creams and everything else to try and prevent it happening. The only other thing would be keep him constantly on the lead to stop him going into cover.
Perhaps not all Spaniels are affected as badly as he has been, however I would never risk it again and it is for that reason I hope a full ban never comes into place here.
It had started to heal, but has started ripping open again, so we now face an operation and lengthy recovery.
And for those of you who think his tail doesn't look too bad, feel free to come and see the stress he goes through both during and after EVERY walk.
Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs, they don't just go for a jolly in the woods, they hit cover with a passion.
Otto never looks for a gap, he goes through no matter what is in his way. His tail is constantly wagging, and this is the reason Spaniels rip their tails open.
I can't speak for any other breed that has been docked in the past, as I have no experiance.
That is after strapping, applying sprays, creams and everything else to try and prevent it happening. The only other thing would be keep him constantly on the lead to stop him going into cover.
Perhaps not all Spaniels are affected as badly as he has been, however I would never risk it again and it is for that reason I hope a full ban never comes into place here.
It had started to heal, but has started ripping open again, so we now face an operation and lengthy recovery.
And for those of you who think his tail doesn't look too bad, feel free to come and see the stress he goes through both during and after EVERY walk.
Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs, they don't just go for a jolly in the woods, they hit cover with a passion.
Otto never looks for a gap, he goes through no matter what is in his way. His tail is constantly wagging, and this is the reason Spaniels rip their tails open.
I can't speak for any other breed that has been docked in the past, as I have no experiance.
GinaB
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't agree with tail docking in general (unless for medical reasons) and I can't say I agree with dew claw removal either.
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I'm sorry, going to have to disagree with you there, as I think it should be carried out on working dogs. Have you ever seen the cover that working dogs have to do? I have seen undocked Springers and Cockers come out with some really nasty injuries on their tails and they are a nightmare to heal, they split open so easily, which I'm sure the likes of Henmeister will tell you about after it happening to Otto.
I just don't agree with tail docking in general (unless for medical reasons) and I can't say I agree with dew claw removal either.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, going to have to disagree with you there, as I think it should be carried out on working dogs. Have you ever seen the cover that working dogs have to do? I have seen undocked Springers and Cockers come out with some really nasty injuries on their tails and they are a nightmare to heal, they split open so easily, which I'm sure the likes of Henmeister will tell you about after it happening to Otto.
missshell
Well-Known Member
Thats fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets
kirstyhen
Well-Known Member
I have more pictures
It started happening again
So back to the Vet's we go
I don't think people realise how a proper working Spaniel attacks cover. My Parent's have had a fair few Spaniels in their time, and they are still amazed at how hard Otto works cover!!
I don't think people realise how a proper working Spaniel attacks cover. My Parent's have had a fair few Spaniels in their time, and they are still amazed at how hard Otto works cover!!
jvoyce
Well-Known Member
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Thats fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets
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Me too - I prefer to leave my animals as nature intended. I don't think we're in a position to argue with evolution.
Thats fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets
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Me too - I prefer to leave my animals as nature intended. I don't think we're in a position to argue with evolution.
Puppy
Well-Known Member
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Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs
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I should say!
If only someone had warned me...
Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs
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I should say!
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Oh no poor Otto I thought that the strapping had cracked it
Healing vibes for his bot
To be fair Henry is more a show type than a working type so he doesn't have the same full on working instinct, although he is still pretty enthusiatic when bunnies are about...
To be fair Henry is more a show type than a working type so he doesn't have the same full on working instinct, although he is still pretty enthusiatic when bunnies are about...