Taught Mr G to rear on command in-hand :)

I wasn't in time to see the video, but I have read the responses and I have to say I agree with the majority. I think it is a pointless and dangerous thing to teach a horse. Bearing in mind that the OP is not a new poster on this forum, and must be aware of the general lack of 'I taught my horse to rear for a bit of fun' type posts, I think she has a bit of a cheek, getting on her high horse (no pun intended :D her VERY high horse) and removing the video, because she didn't get the reaction that she expected. What did she want? Applause? She did nearly get what she deserved, ie the kick!
All I can ask is, even if you are an expect, why does anyone want a horse to rear? What purpose does it serve? Why teach something that could be used as an evasion?
 
jesstinsel said:
BH can't do turn on the forehand either. But he can rein back :) I'm a bit worried now that if I rode him I'd spend the whole time going up and down and confusing the heck out of the poor lad! :o
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You have to be quite precise to get him to rear. A number of other people have ridden him and he's never even offered a rear to him ;) You don't have to ride him, of course. I don't know what the plan is, but if we want to go out, someone will have to ride one of mine unless dafthoss has access to another :o
 
debsg- because it is part of a classic high school movement for a start I expect. Hence the Spanish Riding School teaching it to this day!
 
The Spanish Riding School teach capriole too, not sure I'd want one of mine to do it!! :D
OK, I will concede the point that those involved in higher end CD might teach Haute Ecole movements.
 
Yes excatly and we should respect that. Horses are big, dangerous creatures so why put yourself in a dangerous position when you dont need to. I felt like the OP didnt respect the danger in her video which is what made me mad.

I do apologise if i do come across as rude but when something winds me up i just see red.
 
JustFindingTheDecorations said:
Jess, if you want I will show you Fergs "buttons" when you come done? If you want to ride him after seeing what he does?

I often get asked how I differentiate it from rein back. The aids for rein back are completely different - legs back behind the girth, weight slightly forward. Walk on is a normal leg position / seat. Go up is a forward leg position with seat back / weight central. I can differentiate between those 3 without any problems. I can't, for some reason, reliably differentiate between rein back and turn on the forehand at the moment though ;)
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I want to see him do it! :D and watch JT try it :p
 
I think those of little knowledge should not be teaching a horse to rear.

I don't see the point in teaching a horse to rear, full stop. Bit childish, isn't it? It's like, ha ha, look what my pony can do, he's so cute, oops, didn't mean to squish you, he's just being friendly. Duh.

The OP comes across as very young. It's quite clear that this is not a forum where this toe of behaviour will be applauded. Wise up. Maybe find a forum where people think that's a cute thing.
 
Late to this! Didn't see the vid but wanted to comment none the less.

I have had experience of a trained rearer over from Spain, and if anything, he was worse than a rearer that hadn't been. His owner spent years and years 'un-training' him. He reared whenever he was put under any amount of pressure/stress, because this is what he knew. Obviously his training had involved putting him under pressure, therefore stressing him out, to get him to go up. He just couldn't cope with it.

He went up infront of cars, at random points schooling if any pressure was put on him to perform a certain movement, in the stable if he got left alone etc etc. The owner managed to get him to an ok point, in which he could accept daily pressures without going up, but he would still do it if he got overly-stressed.

What I'm saying is, it seems to me that it isn't the rearing that's the problem, it's the method in which it is taught, and the temperament/attitude of the horse towards it.

Now, onto spanish/french high schools. Both use specific breeds of horse, which makes me think again that the breed type is used partly because of it's attitude/disposition, obviously there are other factors there to consider, but that isn't the point. Also, of course not every horse that is bred to perform these high school movements, will, the horses must be carefully selected for the job right? The horses that are trained are also, not a general riding horse, they aren't going to be going out eventing or to TREC. They are schooled, they do their performances, and possibly hack out for fitness, but probably not.

All the above is based on my limited knowledge/common sense, so please correct me if I am wrong about any of that.

MY PERSONAL OPINION is that rearing, unless taught to counteract itself, is a pretty pointless thing to teach a bog standard riding horse. If a horse can learn that then why not teach it some decent dressage movements? That's just my opinion though. I, myself, would never do it because I don't see what it's achieving.

OP is there any particular reason why you wanted to teach it to your horse, BTW that isn't a pop, genuinely intrigued by it? :)
 
SnowfieLouBee said:
What I'm saying is, it seems to me that it isn't the rearing that's the problem, it's the method in which it is taught, and the temperament/attitude of the horse towards it.

Can't dispute that - teach a horse anything badly and you have to face the repercussions

The horses that are trained are also, not a general riding horse, they aren't going to be going out eventing or to TREC.

disagree with this though - why can a specially trained horse not do TREC? Mine both do... Both have ended in top 20 in the national leagues for the winter series (at open and novice respectively). the reason we've had no success at full trecs is 'cos I'm rubbish at map reading :o Pretty unrelated to their tricks! Maybe one day I will take the highland eventing too ;)

OP is there any particular reason why you wanted to teach it to your horse, BTW that isn't a pop, genuinely intrigued by it? :)
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I'm not the OP, but since I taught mine o do the same things, I will answer - for me, because it's something different to do, I do a lot of groundwork of all forms, so rearing is a reasonably natural progression. I am not concerned I'm teaching him to rear since he had already shown it was his natural avoidance tactic before I started teaching - and I can use the teaching to hijack his natural instincts and stop him doing it. I also use it to encourage him to shift back onto his hind quarters - not probably the usual way of acheiving this, but it works with my boy ;)
 
as to whether it is suitable /desirable etc to teach a horse to rear is a personal decision and I am not going to say that is is in all cases wrong....


however what I think is crucial is that if one is going to do it then there are certain points that should be considered before you do it OP.

* The need for a good knowledge and skill in the timing of rewarding a behaviour so that you get what you intend not what you reward in error (like I understand from the comments made about the video that has happened here). If you are new to teaching using positive reinforecement then please may I suggest you hone your skills on behaviours or tricks where the action is less risky.

* Have you used treats as your positive reinforecement before because it may be that if you have either not charged the "click", or not used one at all , then your horse might be expressing frustration becuse he did as you asked and you were slow to live up to your end of the "bargain".

* Are you aware of the progression of behaviours taught by pos reinforcement ..... that once you move on to intermittant rewards the horse will try harder with the action to get a treat because he had been given one previously every time he presented the behaviour..... he may go higher or use his legs more in order to get what he thinks he deserves.


* Are you aware that often before the action is on cue horses will offer the behaviour more and more and sometimes at times when you think you are not working / training him. The heav enot yt learned that it is only rewarded at certain times . This is the time that is dangerous for these type of actions. So unless your horse is used to the principle of not doing an action unless cued ..... again I would be wary of doing this as a first foray into "tricks" and positive reinfocement.





Please get you and your horse used to the principle of this type of training with other things first. I must admit that I am making presumptions here .... from other peoples description as well as what you dont say in your replies ..... that you are not experienced in CT style training.





and perhaps a little illustration of how long their memories are for this....... my daughter unbeknown to me taught B to "give a hoof" when she pointed at her leg. At that point we always wore bum bags with our treats in so they knew when they were on offer. Soon though I moved on to not having a bum bag.

Daughter grew up and out of horses but B stayed with me and for two years all was fine...... till one day for some rare reason I put a bum bag on when I was on the yard and as I went towards B to ask her to lift a leg for me to clean her hoof out.......... I was nearly smacked in the face by her "giving a hoof". She remembered the cue I had inadvertantly and in ignorance given (confirmed by daughter later when I told her about the incident !!!!)


I think the majority of the posters on here , whilst some my be a little more vociferous than others ;), have your safety at heart so please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater and please look at what is being said :).
 
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JustFindingTheDecorations said:
I'm not the OP, but since I taught mine o do the same things, I will answer - for me, because it's something different to do, I do a lot of groundwork of all forms, so rearing is a reasonably natural progression. I am not concerned I'm teaching him to rear since he had already shown it was his natural avoidance tactic before I started teaching - and I can use the teaching to hijack his natural instincts and stop him doing it. I also use it to encourage him to shift back onto his hind quarters - not probably the usual way of acheiving this, but it works with my boy ;)
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Thanks JFTD, I get why you have chosen to do this, seems a reasonable option for a horse displaying the behaviour already, infact I'd probably even go as far as saying it might be a good idea in this scenario! I'd certainly give it a thought it if I had explored other routes and failed with an established rearer.

I agree about horses that have been trained to do it, going out and doing every-day stuff, but I was talking specifically about High School horses. It's not even the fact they can't, it's that they wouldn't be expected to? I think that's what I'm getting at anyway lol.... I've never seen any ex-high school horses doing anything normal either. I know of one, that isn't really an 'ex', just useless at it, he's driven I think. Totally unrelated, but very uncomfortable to rear in a cart!
 
I was not going to comment on this thread but as i know the OP and have ridden that horse, he is fab by the way.

This horse and rider has represented GB in the Trec champs. She is very talented young rider. However i do think it was silly but knowing G like i know him its something that will become very boring after a while.
 
SnowfieLouBee said:
I agree about horses that have been trained to do it, going out and doing every-day stuff, but I was talking specifically about High School horses. It's not even the fact they can't, it's that they wouldn't be expected to? I think that's what I'm getting at anyway lol.... I've never seen any ex-high school horses doing anything normal either. I know of one, that isn't really an 'ex', just useless at it, he's driven I think. Totally unrelated, but very uncomfortable to rear in a cart!
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Hmm, I'm not sure that's a particularly valid analogy though (sorry!) simply because more high level horses in any discipline aren't expected to go out and venture into completely different disciplines - high level "normal" dr horses rarely compete at trec either. It's true, probably, but not especially relevant to why not to teach a horse to rear - I bet if the SRS wanted to compete at trec they'd be pretty good at it :o Normal horses are often expected to perform in all different disciplines - mine included - and can be taught to show different behaviours in different environments ;)

video of my boy if you want to tear it apart :p Both old clips - can't find an new ones :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAnNhVWMqYs
 
JustFindingTheDecorations said:
Hmm, I'm not sure that's a particularly valid analogy though (sorry!) simply because more high level horses in any discipline aren't expected to go out and venture into completely different disciplines - high level "normal" dr horses rarely compete at trec either. It's true, probably, but not especially relevant to why not to teach a horse to rear - I bet if the SRS wanted to compete at trec they'd be pretty good at it :o Normal horses are often expected to perform in all different disciplines - mine included - and can be taught to show different behaviours in different environments ;)

video of my boy if you want to tear it apart :p Both old clips - can't find an new ones :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAnNhVWMqYs
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I think, I'm finding it hard to say what I mean, with, as I said before, limited knowledge! (I have a funny image of SRS doing airs above the ground at random whilst partaking in TREC, thanks for that :p)

That being, said, why should 'normal horses' be expected to perform a rear, if say high school horses aren't expected to do a round of SJ? Works both ways I guess, well in my mind. I don't think I'm even saying they shouldn't, it's just they don't!

Agree with be expected to show different behaviours in different environments, that can definitely/obviously be taught. For example, rein back, I use in the school, and for opening gates. However, I will say my horses that know rein back, can & do shoot/go backwards more often than the ones that I haven't taught...Coincidence perhaps, or maybe not. Also, you have to throw in the mix the unpredictability of the horse, now it knows a new thing, is it more likely to display it at random undesired points in time? Who knows! Again, perhaps that is related to the temperament of the horse?

Why would I tear those videos apart?! They are both controlled and carried out in a safe and positive way, with the horse obviously listening to you, the handler. I don't have any problem with that fact :)

Another question for you, does your horse do full scale rears, or just lifts like those in the vid?

Sorry if I am rambling on a bit! You are a lovely person to have a discussion with, makes a change from the ranting that can/does happen on here ;)
 
now it knows a new thing, is it more likely to display it at random undesired points in time?
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if he has been positively rewarded for it and its not yet learned to only do it on cue ..... highly likely ;) ... or if a similar cue is accidentally given :rolleyes:

these "tricks" have got to be trained well especially with horses that learn fast and / or get frustrated.
 
I see what you're getting at. Yes, that's certainly one way of looking at it. I would agree I think, if I didn't think my horses enjoy doing it - if I felt I was expecting more from them than they wanted to give (in terms of doing specific things and in terms of versatility) then I wouldn't ask them to - if you know what I mean? But yes, that's certainly a valid view point (though who am I to judge validity of opinions - I mean, I understand!)

When ridden I don't encourage him to go any higher than this -

neckreinrear2.png


Because I don't want to risk him over balancing and going back on himself (or me). Fortunately, he's a very sane sort of horse (nonsense, don't mean that at all, I mean, he has a good self preservation instinct!) so he doesn't get silly and do it stupidly. I would be less inclined to train a horse who I didn't feel was so careful with his own life ;)

He does go up pretty high when I ask him from the ground. I can't find a photo right now on my pb account. But even at that, he rarely goes to the full vertical, and you really have to ask for that - if he's in any way uncertain that you want a rear, he will bunny hop the way he does in that video. Because he always starts with those sorts of heights, I am fairly confident he is unlikely to go bolt upright unprovoked!

My cob really only bunny hops. If I really psych him up I can get a 45 degree angle type rear (and he loves being allowed to do it as he really does know it's "misbehaving"). Nobody else who has ridden him has ever managed to get him to do it :p He's very laid back, he's not going to expend energy doing silly things for no reason.

Thanks. I try not to rant blindly, but sometimes we all get a bit wound up and blinkered ;) It's aways nice to be able to exchange ideas with someone who is willing to see it from different view points and respond coherently to things like this. I think this is the point of forums - not for lynching and ganging up on people.

eta- sorry that photo is seriously rubbish quality, sorry :/
 
Yes, I get what you mean, I can see it's done in a controlled manner, and that you don't push it too far, which is perfectly acceptable.

That's really interesting, so you are able to control the height that he goes, by using your excitement. So it's all done with positive reinforcement, interesting. Obviously your methods are very different to that of the people that taught the horse I was talking about earlier.

What's also interesting is how you've mentioned the temperament of the horses, self-preserving & laid back, and how you'd not encourage it with horses not of that disposition. (Can you tell I like psychology, what a geek)

I think, what probably gets most people, is the fact that although you have taught the rearing in (what I think) is the correct manner to do so, that the horse has still be taught to do it, and perhaps this makes it more likely for a horse to do it unprovoked, than if it hasn't been taught? Coupling that with the fact that most people who have rearers, do not desire this fact, thus go about solving it by negative association. They see, you, as an example, as someone who is positively reinforcing what they view to be negative behaviour.

I, un-intentionally, probably somewhat encourage undesirable behaviour. When I see my horses getting a bit fruity in the field, as in playful, I will clap my hands and make a squealing noise, which they have now associated with play, and they go cantering off with their tails in the air. Now does that mean that I am associated with cantering off? I don't think so, the noises are. However, if I were to make that noise whilst mounted, I highly doubt my horses would tank off, infact I'd bet you they wouldn't. As you said before, different environments have been distinguished, my horses know when it's field/play time, and hen it's work time. The problem would arise if you failed to separate between the two.

I must go to bed now! I'm hoping to study equine behaviour one day (when I have time and/or funds lol), and this would be a really interesting topic for a paper!
 
burness_21 said:
I was not going to comment on this thread but as i know the OP and have ridden that horse, he is fab by the way.

This horse and rider has represented GB in the Trec champs. She is very talented young rider. However i do think it was silly but knowing G like i know him its something that will become very boring after a while.
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Appreciating that she may have competed for GB but having competed at that level for many years also in a non-professional (& not equestrian) sport i would be the first to admit that you cannot ever call yourself an expert, you still frequenty make errors in judgement and there is always room to learn - if you can't accept this you have to ask yourself whether you really are a sports person.

But as they say you learn from your experiences so once the OP has considered both the positives and negatives of teaching him this hopefully she will recognise her strengths in being able to infulencing her horse and turn it into a real positive in his training for the future to go out and do GB proud!
 
'I agree, its your horse, do what you like.

BUT if you ever get fed up of him, or cant afford him, or any other reason why you need to move him on. Please dont.

Apart from a very limited market of people who think this is clever, your horse will be unsaleable.

Be prepared to have him PTS if no-one with similar ideas to yourself wants him.

I hope for his sake you can give him a home for life because no-one else will want to.'


Exactly...and also remember that Life being what it is, wanting to keep a horse for its lifetime is one thing, being able to is another. Horses live a long time and in this present climate, fiscal security is at best unsure.
 
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