Tell me I'm Daft. . . . .

[dorsetladette]

I also looked at this briefly as I have ridden there,used to be based at Parley and am still local-ish...then I remembered several people have tried to make a success of this place, the turnout was pants and the hacking is also rubbish in winter (and summer ?).

I don't think there is much call for Full in the ara anymore. The area already has Parley, Hurn and The Oaks within 10 min radius.

I'm shocked you say the hacking is rubbish? considering the lack of off-road hacking generally I would of thought that bridles ways at the bottom of the land would be a massive bonus? Why is it no good?

Who else has tried to make a go of it? I've only known of it being the riding school and then Lloyds - was there others?

I'd only really considered parley as competition to Stocks really, as I consider Hurn bridge and Oaks relatively small in comparison. Although Hurn is the base for east dorset riding club.

Sorry all the questions

 

[Abacus]

I only just looked at the site plan. I wonder how much could be made from turning the fields into a xc course for hire rather than bother about livery. Could use the stabling for PC camps and suchlike, or have just one pro with limited horses. Looks like there is existing water that might be modified into a water complex. No idea how much it would cost in ground prep and jumps.

 

[Andrew657]

Rateable value is £29750 - so rates will be just under £15000 per year.

This means rent and rates are nearly £5000 / month (ie nearly £150/month per stable ) just for rent and rates whether occupied or empty

 

[nagblagger]

I'm local to that to..knew it as Stocks Farm.
It would be definitely worth a look so you can see for yourself the amount of work that needs to be done, discuss concerns and negotiate in person.
What notice would the owner give you if they did decide to sell at later date?
Like i said - no harm in organising a viewing.

( if you get it can i box over and go off-road riding?)

 

[FlyingCircus]

I'm shocked you say the hacking is rubbish? considering the lack of off-road hacking generally I would of thought that bridles ways at the bottom of the land would be a massive bonus? Why is it no good?

Who else has tried to make a go of it? I've only known of it being the riding school and then Lloyds - was there others?

I'd only really considered parley as competition to Stocks really, as I consider Hurn bridge and Oaks relatively small in comparison. Although Hurn is the base for east dorset riding club.

Sorry all the questions

Depends what you want from your hacking. When I was there you could only safely hack around Parley Common. In the winter it was v wet sand and bog in some places. Then in the summer very hard in places. You could go out for an hour, maybe 2 at a push but defo wouldn't describe as good considering other hacking in the area. For instance, parley you can get to the Common and hack around their 800 acre estate. Then not too far away is access to the new forest or mores valley.

I think as Lloyds it had a couple of yard managers whilst under same ownership. I do think it's telling theyre aiming to rent it as empty. I'd be concerned there are no longer enough people interested in livery to make it worthwhile, now the people who were there have gone elsewhere.

Re the tack shop, I think the one at Parley struggled and ultimately closed in part due to online competition with prices. It was handy for last minute issues at shows (I.e forgot girth) but in the time I was there it wasn't busy on non show days. Cafe is still up and going tho I think! Was run by same people and they make amazing cakes ?

I guess like most have said a robust business plan is needed. Working out how much per stable you need coming in to make it worth it. Then seeing if that's something the area can sustain. Also would be useful to see if Parley still has a long wait list. I've heard in more recent years a number of long term liveries have moved.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I only just looked at the site plan. I wonder how much could be made from turning the fields into a xc course for hire rather than bother about livery. Could use the stabling for PC camps and suchlike, or have just one pro with limited horses. Looks like there is existing water that might be modified into a water complex. No idea how much it would cost in ground prep and jumps.

This is almost what Tile Barn in Brock does. They don't have livery but they rent stables and classrooms for lectures and on site stables for clinics. They also have a mechanics horse simulator there.

Poss worth some consideration- especially given the indoor to facilitate clinics and clubs in winter.

Amanda who owns it is lovely and may be open to a discussion as Lloyds isn't on her doorstep so unlikely to be direct competition for her clients!

 

[Dexter]

Rateable value is £29750 - so rates will be just under £15000 per year.

This means rent and rates are nearly £5000 / month (ie nearly £150/month per stable ) just for rent and rates whether occupied or empty

Plus insurance, plus 20k for fencing, and probably a school surface top-up and general repairs and maintenance. And thats before the running costs of horses added to it. Its a huge investment and there just can't be a profit in it. Especially with the school size, limited hacking and wet fields. Those things are all compromises people will make, but they expect the price to reflect it.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Plus insurance, plus 20k for fencing, and probably a school surface top-up and general repairs and maintenance. And thats before the running costs of horses added to it. Its a huge investment and there just can't be a profit in it. Especially with the school size, limited hacking and wet fields. Those things are all compromises people will make, but they expect the price to reflect it.

Not to mention that the total approx cost to the employer of having a staff member on 37.5 hours a week, at £9.50 an hour with a 5% pension is £20,296.01 - inc Ers NIC, tax, pension contrib. So an additional £40k per year for two full time staff which would cover the yard at a push with a lot of input from yourself.

Already here with rent, rateable value and staff we are at a cost of £98,000 per annum - not including insurance, maintenance, electricity, water, security, muck heap removal, website...

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Super ballpark and VERY conservative figures

If you allow £5k for insurance, £750pcm utilities, £12k pa maintenance, £1000 pa muck heap removal, £100 website domain (not including set up costs) you are looking at £114,000.

Then, inputs! Assume a hay round bale costs £25 because you bulk buy, and lasts 1 horse in at night 20 days - thats 9.5 round bales per horse for the cold 6 months of the year. That is £8,312 to feed all 35 horses. If you have to hay for 9 months of the year then thats £12,468.

Assume 35 horses are on wood pellets and are allowed 1 bag per week - £400 for a 65 bag pallet. That's £11,200 for bedding.

Feed: assume each horse has 1 scoop of spillers chaff (300g dry weight) and 1/2 scoop of fast fibre (750g dry weight) in a feed twice a day. Approx 30 scoops chaff in a bag at £10 a bag that's £8,516 in chaff and £13,200 in fast fibre per year.

Therefore assuming you are at max capacity, you have 2 horses of your own and you have no staffing issues, everyone pays on time, you are blessed withgood grass growth, there's no mass desire for more expensive feeds, utilities aren't abusedby liveries - that total is £159,300 or £402 per stable per month you would need to break even

If you want a salary of £1500pcm then £447 per stable per month for 33 head

 

[Abacus]

Super ballpark and VERY conservative figures

If you allow £5k for insurance, £750pcm utilities, £12k pa maintenance, £1000 pa muck heap removal, £100 website domain (not including set up costs) you are looking at £114,000.

Then, inputs! Assume a hay round bale costs £25 because you bulk buy, and lasts 1 horse in at night 20 days - thats 9.5 round bales per horse for the cold 6 months of the year. That is £8,312 to feed all 35 horses. If you have to hay for 9 months of the year then thats £12,468.

Assume 35 horses are on wood pellets and are allowed 1 bag per week - £400 for a 65 bag pallet. That's £11,200 for bedding.

Feed: assume each horse has 1 scoop of spillers chaff (300g dry weight) and 1/2 scoop of fast fibre (750g dry weight) in a feed twice a day. Approx 30 scoops chaff in a bag at £10 a bag that's £8,516 in chaff and £13,200 in fast fibre per year.

Therefore assuming you are at max capacity, you have 2 horses of your own and you have no staffing issues, everyone pays on time, you are blessed withgood grass growth, there's no mass desire for more expensive feeds, utilities aren't abusedby liveries - that total is £159,300 or £402 per stable per month you would need to break even

If you want a salary of £1500pcm then £447 per stable per month for 33 head

I love these stats. Good work!

I would add: £447 doesn’t sound much and for full you can charge more but this does assume nearly 100% capacity - from the word go. And I don’t think staff costs are included here? And you have to factor in (over perhaps 3 years) the initial setup costs in getting the place shipshape.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I love these stats. Good work!

I would add: £447 doesn’t sound much and for full you can charge more but this does assume nearly 100% capacity - from the word go. And I don’t think staff costs are included here? And you have to factor in (over perhaps 3 years) the initial setup costs in getting the place shipshape.

I included 2 full time staff on minimum wage from my 1st post. I didn’t include on-costs for OP’s salary as you would be more likely to take dividends than PAYE yourself a full salary.

 

[Abacus]

I included 2 full time staff on minimum wage from my 1st post. I didn’t include on-costs for OP’s salary as you would be more likely to take dividends than PAYE yourself a full salary.

Apologies. Missed that it was in there.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I love these stats. Good work!

I would add: £447 doesn’t sound much and for full you can charge more but this does assume nearly 100% capacity - from the word go. And I don’t think staff costs are included here? And you have to factor in (over perhaps 3 years) the initial setup costs in getting the place shipshape.

To maybe add some perspective on the ££, in the new forest which is not too far away you can get full care, no riding for around £500 a month, with 2 min hack to the forest where you can ride for miles/hours.

 

[Abacus]

To maybe add some perspective on the ££, in the new forest which is not too far away you can get full care, no riding for around £500 a month, with 2 min hack to the forest where you can ride for miles/hours.

Wow. I need to move. Here in south Oxfordshire it’s nearly double.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Wow. I need to move. Here in south Oxfordshire it’s nearly double.

no apology needed, it was quite a convoluted post!

Same! West Sussex - yard with naff to average hacking, no indoor and potentially restricted turnout is average about £700+

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

To maybe add some perspective on the ££, in the new forest which is not too far away you can get full care, no riding for around £500 a month, with 2 min hack to the forest where you can ride for miles/hours.

To add to this, if everything comes in at 10% more than I estimated and you had 10% vacancies then it would increase to £559 per stable - neither of those things are unlikely either

 

[NR88]

Are other full livery yards in the area full and operating wait lists? Might be worth calling around to investigate first.

I think full livery, and possibly horse ownership, will be decreasing due to the current circumstances.

It is worth viewing the yard and if you still want to proceed after that the time to put pen to paper and work out costs realistically.

 

[Winters100]

Honestly nothing could persuade me to get into that sort of business. There are way easier and less risky ways to make a living. It is the kind of business that can leave you bankrupt unless you have very deep pockets.

 

[black and brown]

I would check very carefully the length of lease and the notice period. Also, if it is a 'repairing lease' (I think this us what they are called) you may be left responsible for fencing, surface, etc to be up together before you are asked to leave and someone else benefits.

 

[HashRouge]

Honestly nothing could persuade me to get into that sort of business. There are way easier and less risky ways to make a living. It is the kind of business that can leave you bankrupt unless you have very deep pockets.

This. You'd need a lot of initial outlay I would think, especially as it might take a while to fill all the stables (if indeed you ever do!).

 

[J&S]

Sounds an absolute nightmare to me! Masses of work and money to get it going and then more masses of work and money to keep it going!

 

[July dreamer]

I wouldn't recommend that anyone ever had liveries! Some are lovely but some are not. For over 20 years I ran a DIY yard, really regret now I didn't give it up sooner, I owned the yard and had another income, just as well. Some people look at what you charge, multiply by the number of clients you have and think you are making that much money a week. No idea of all your outgoings. One of my concerns would be if you had 30 odd full liveries, they might all want to come and ride after work in the dark, there would be a bit of a bun fight to use the indoor school. Unlikely I know, but how many horses can use a 20x40m school at one time?

I don't think I would want to invest time, energy or money into a business where you could potentially have to leave after a few years if the lease wasn't renewed.

So a no from me, sorry.

 

[Winters100]

I would check very carefully the length of lease and the notice period. Also, if it is a 'repairing lease' (I think this us what they are called) you may be left responsible for fencing, surface, etc to be up together before you are asked to leave and someone else benefits.

This is a very good point. Unless property law has changed since I worked in the UK a typical lease would be FRI, ie Full Repairing and Insuring, tenant pays for all. Also most standard terms would require the tenant to 'put and keep' the premises in a substantial state of repair. This means that you could be required to hand the premises back in a better state of repair than when you took them. Arena needs a new roof? Down to the tenant, and has to be done under the repair obligations.

Business security would also need to be considered. A short lease allows you to walk away if it does not go well, but also gives no long term security. A long lease, for which the owner would almost certainly require a personal guarantee if you were signing using a newly formed limited company, means that you are on the hook for the rent for a long period.

Also others have mentioned costs. Don't forget the 'soft' costs. Cost of running the company, using advisers to oversee repairs etc (no Landlord will let you just get a friend to go on the roof and patch it), legal advisers for the set up, paying accountants for the running of the company etc etc etc

I don't know what your business experience is OP, but seriously this needs very careful thought.

 

[Merry neddy man]

Surely people paying for full livery would want someone living on site.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

Having worked as a groom for nearly 15yrs, and 8 of them on a full livery yard, I wouldn't be keen to run my own yard for lots of reasons already mentioned.
Also you can't please everyone all if the time which generally means someone unhappy complaining so you need very thick skin to shrug this off.

It's also always been fairly hard to find good reliable staff and in the last few years has become even harder as people don't seem to really want to work for their money let alone do hard physical work for it.

If you decide to go for it good luck and do a good business plan and make sure to include on going maintenance to the property and repair/ replacement of equipment etc

 

[dorsetladette]

This morning my sensible head is telling me not too. For me the biggest negative is that there is no accommodation on site. It would make for very long days when liveries want to ride in evenings or be out early for shows etc.

Financially I think it could work if aimed at the right clients. I'm not sure it would be the right yard for the happy hacker types, more BE/BD (possibly BS & showing) semi serious types with a couple of horses each.

Putting in a walker, solarium, horse shower etc would be first on the list after fencing. Set of show jumps and mobile cross country jumps too.

OH runs own building business so I'd be covered there, I'd cover accounts etc myself so apart from end of year etc that's pretty inexpensive.

I'm going to get a plan together. I've spoken to agents and they are sending more info and arranging a viewing. I think I just need to get it out of my system. Interesting distraction from the rest of life for a while maybe if nothing else.

 

[Polos Mum]

How far away is it from your home? If you have to be there at 5am to open up for early shows and then not leave until 10pm late night checks ? If you can pop home maybe that's OK but include your own fuel in your budget.

Also budget the repayments on the £100k you'd need to put in all the kit for semi serious types. No sensible BE / showing etc. person would turn out on weed infested baggy barbed wire fencing.

If you need 15 x 2 horse owner competitive people I would think about where they are going to come from. Where are those people today.
Also think about space for 15 lorries - if that is your market they will all have a box.

I would call around the local professional yards and ask them about their pricing and wait list (pretend to be a potential client). If they all have long wait lists then there is demand - if they all offer you immediate space then your market just isn't there.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'm local to that to..knew it as Stocks Farm.
It would be definitely worth a look so you can see for yourself the amount of work that needs to be done, discuss concerns and negotiate in person.
What notice would the owner give you if they did decide to sell at later date?
Like i said - no harm in organising a viewing.

( if you get it can i box over and go off-road riding?)

You could box to me now to ride off road if you liked? I have nothing to ride currently but do have a very lonely livery who is desperate to find a few hacking buddies. private message me if you like.

 

[nagblagger]

Thank you for your generous offer. i will pm you.

 

[Melody Grey]

Having come from a horsey business background, I’d say there are easier ways to make comparable money OP and there’s a lot of risk there and backbreaking work potentially for you.
I think the only way I’d want to entertain something like that is to have a manager in there but doesn’t look like the sums would stack up for that.