Tell we what you see , besides a lame pony

[Horsekaren]

We long lined yesterday for 30 mins, all seemed ok apart from this moment.
This is what he has done under saddle a couple of times which has triggered all of the investigates. He doesn’t do this on the lunge it’s only when you take up some sort of contact and ask for the hind to come under. In the clip I ask him to slow as I try and menouver him around the bush. I did put a bit of pressure down the lines to bring him back and this is the result.

I will show this to my chiro vet tomorrow but has anyone seen this before, where do you see the issue to be? Clearly behind but what.

History-
Locking neck on left rein
Short behind
The above video
Bucking in canter

Hocks injected with steroids last Friday. In hand walking this week. Not been ridden for 6 weeks.

Spine xrayed and is clear
Fetlocks xrayed and clear
Hocks xrayed mild arthritis found in both hocks, worse in left but also present in right.

If he were yours what would your next step be? I need to crack this. Vet who did the injections suggested nerve blocking si and doing a ridden lameness exam. Would you do this or ask for him to be reffered.


Please be nice, I’m trying everything I to help him. You can see how upsetting it is to see by my face I just don’t want to be given the run around with vets

 

[LaurenBobby]

If it was me I would want a full lameness work up from a trusted vet, were his hocks nerve blocked or just xrayed? I would probably go for the nerve blocks first. Good luck x

 

[quizzie]

I would be very suspicious of neck involvement...a change in head/neck position caused a significant gait change in that video.

Was the neck X-rayed, and if so was it a specialist equine practice ....as neck x-rays can be difficult to interpret, and positioning is critical.

 

[Shay]

Can I throw a curve ball.... have his eyes been checked? I have an oldie going blind who will react like this when something presents in his visual field in a way he wasn't expecting. Yes clearly lame and in pain - it was just something in that head movement - as if that bush (or possibly a turn as this isn't an aerial view) wasn't where he thought it was and he needed to raise his head an hold a second to check. My oldie - who is not lame or in pain - will sometimes do this long lining if he needs to double check what he can actually see. He is totally blind one side and has very limited probably peripheral vision in the other.

 

[Micky]

Not that I’m an expert in any shape or form but I’d say look at his feet..

 

[scats]

Scan his suspensories.

 

[Littlebear]

There are so many possibilities looking at the video, I agree with the other poster that I would take it for full assessment with nerve blocks to isolate where the issue is coming from x

 

[ycbm]

I see a typical reaction to sore hocks when stopping the front end puts more weight into the back end.

Unless you are insured, I don't see anything that would make me want to spend a lot of money on more investigations.

But I would probably want a scan for PSD, because spavin with PSD combined is so much more difficult to manage.

.

 

[Melody Grey]

I would be very suspicious of neck involvement...a change in head/neck position caused a significant gait change in that video.

Was the neck X-rayed, and if so was it a specialist equine practice ....as neck x-rays can be difficult to interpret, and positioning is critical.

Sorry to agree, this looks neurological to me. Has wobblers been ruled out?

 

[ycbm]

HK you can do the basic tests for a neurological issue yourself. If you don't already know them:

Turn him very tight in a circle to each side. His inside hind leg should cross in front of the outside one and he shouldn't kick himself.

Back him up. He should back up in equal diagonal pairs in a straight line without difficulty.

If he seems to be having an issue with either of those then you definitely need to explore a neurological possibility.

.

 

[Horsekaren]

Neck possibly has a bit part to play or it is secondary to something behind.

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Feet, possibly, vet said he was slightly foot sore on one of his fronts on hard ground but wasnt concerned.

Scats- When you say suspensory is this below his hock? would you think the issue is above or below the hock?

YCBM - its got something to do with putting the weight back i am sure of it. He is insured. The Arthritis is by no means severe, its very early stages which makes me wonder if this is secondary. regardless i doubt the injections have helped if he has done this within a week.

I will research wobblers but i think i have looked at this before and it doesnt seem right, its a response to pain. if you add the below video to the equation, this is him sleeping, he does this a fare bit. he doesnt lay down but will roll a lot. Its like he cant lock something he should be able to. Or its sleep deprivation which is what vet suggested before but could it all be linked? The clip was after he was let out of box rest so the poor thing was exhausted, i would say he probably does this 1 - 3 times a day. Vet not concerned

To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.

 

[TPO]

Ask 5 horse people for an opinion and you'll get 11 different answers...

Is he insured? If he is and you have £££ left on your claim then I'd throw everything at it. Get every inch blocked, scanned, x-rayed and MRI'd etc at a vet hospital. Don't suppose Sue Dyson is anywhere near you? Also see if insurance covers going to a rehab yard.

If he's not insured and I'm guessing you're not a millionaire then you need to have a very frank discussion with your vet. Get the cost of everything in black and white before proceeding with anything and really drill down into what will make the difference. EG if the treatment is the same is there a point to doing as much to get a diagnosis.

How long has your current vet and vet chiro/physio been involved with this process? Randomly I was discussing these men last night (with someone who's used them both so can advise further) but it might be worth looking into getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech out. There is also a female vet who takes a holistic approach and seems to have x-ray vision who's been mentioned on here before but I can't recall her name.

 

[sherry90]

I’d get him referred for a full work up at one of the big practices. Not sure where you are OP but e.g. Newmarket/Leahurst etc.

 

[only_me]

That second video is quite concerning imo, what if he did that under saddle?

It looks as though his muscle spasmed and led to him wanting to stretch out - I think he needs a Physio (and not a chiro) as he may have damaged his deep digital flexor tendons around the hock, so if he moves it could cause pain and cause the spasm in hind.

I think it’s very important that you get the hocks scanned as well - I don’t think xrays are enough. You need to see the soft tissue, mild arthritis in hocks doesn’t cause that movement.

 

[Leo Walker]

Ask 5 horse people for an opinion and you'll get 11 different answers...

Is he insured? If he is and you have £££ left on your claim then I'd throw everything at it. Get every inch blocked, scanned, x-rayed and MRI'd etc at a vet hospital. Don't suppose Sue Dyson is anywhere near you? Also see if insurance covers going to a rehab yard.

If he's not insured and I'm guessing you're not a millionaire then you need to have a very frank discussion with your vet. Get the cost of everything in black and white before proceeding with anything and really drill down into what will make the difference. EG if the treatment is the same is there a point to doing as much to get a diagnosis.

How long has your current vet and vet chiro/physio been involved with this process? Randomly I was discussing these men last night (with someone who's used them both so can advise further) but it might be worth looking into getting someone like Rob Jackson or Tom Beech out. There is also a female vet who takes a holistic approach and seems to have x-ray vision who's been mentioned on here before but I can't recall her name.

I'd have Tom Beech out, just because hes very, very good at these slightly odd cases. But only once and if he didnt make a significant improvement in that visit then I'd have him off to vet hospital, with the videos and I'd want a full work up. I'd make sure they knew the amount left on the insurance and that thats the limit without prior discussion with you. Then I'd cross my fingers and pray for something easily fixed.

 

[Horsekaren]

There is just so much going on i dont know where to start, i'll take him to hospital and basically have verbal direah, basically say every part of him is broken.
Si
hind legs
front foot sore
short behind
Can hop on the front
jogs behind
Stiff neck
head shakes - allergies

Can i literally just hand him over and say he isnt right, figure it out.
Now he has had his hocks injected if it is a Si or suspensory issue would these be two different insurance claims.

If it is somthing that needs a lot of rest in a box, i would look at rehab yards as i dont know if i could manage in my current set up, any idea how much this would be a month?

.

 

[Leo Walker]

yes, you send him with the videos and say he is broken, please find out why.

Stop getting ahead of yourself with referral livery! I sent mine to one and it was very cheap, the cost of full livery in my area. It depends what sort of rehab is needed. It would have gone up slightly had he needed ridden exercise, but he didnt get to that point.

 

[milliepops]

Can i literally just hand him over and say he isnt right, figure it out.


.

that's pretty much the purpose of a full work up at a hospital.

I really feel for you, this must all feel very difficult.

 

[ycbm]

HK please check with your insurer before you commit to a lot of money on a non specific issue. It has been known for insurers to refuse to pay out if nothing is found, especially if the symptoms already fit something which has been identified and is only part way through treatment.

I wouldn't want you to unexpectedly end up with a huge bill.

 

[SEL]

HK as the owner of a broken one who would do things differently in hindsight now is the time to hand him over to the vets, tell them how much you've got on the insurance and say you want answers. Show them these videos.

We have a 30 year old mare on the yard who does the same sleeping behaviour. She has arthritis but also a severe heart murmur - the vet reckons it's the latter that causes this. They will have listened to your boys heart at some point in the process so I wonder if there's something arthritic stopping him lying down to sleep.

Which vet hospitals are near you?

 

[TPO]

I think going to a well respected vet hospital (possibly via Tom Beech) is a good plan.

I've been in a similar position to you but because I'd been messed around by previous practices doing their "best guess" approach and screwing up procedures I was all out of insurance by the time I found my new/current practice. I wasn't long in burning through the 5k vet fees while they ummed and ahhed at things and was the best part of that again out of my own pocket. So learn from my mistakes and if you have the money available get what needs done to give a firm diagnosis while leaving enough for the treatment at the other side of that.

It could still be something relatively simple and all related ie his hocks might have been bothering him so he compensated by loading his front end. This could cause his shoulders to brace and neck to become stiff; just think how you how yourself when you're sore. You are stiff and tight. If he's a bit footsore (is he shod or BF, when was he last seen to?) in front when he's already compensating that could intensify the issues with shoulders and neck as he braces against that and shortens his stride. Add into that the rehab work that he's been doing to use himself properly is possibly the equivalent to us squatting with weights and holding that position then a brutal pilates session. The rehab work has been working and is for his benefit but he will feel the change and struggle as new/unused muscles are activated etc.

It's brilliant that you have these videos. I think you should also write out everything (use your old posts on here for dates) as it's so easy to miss parts when retelling the story to new vets. Tell them your goal ie to have him back sound and in ridden work, ask the what they propose to do to diagnose and how they propose to go about treatment and the cost of it all. If the cost is too high then you have to work with them to narrow down what is necessary and what is a duplication.

When did your claim start, how long do you have left on your insurance?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.

I have seen a horse stretch like this with the forelimbs out stretched and the chest practically on the ground while awake (so this probably isn't the case for your horse, but I feel that I should mention it just incase) and it was due to pain from encysted redworms.

 

[Trouper]

Another one for a call to Tom Beech here. He will assess the whole horse for you and point you in the right direction. Good luck.

 

[ester]

I thought the chiro vet that HK has had out and is coming again was also recommended?

 

[ozpoz]

I am concerned that your vet is "not concerned" and has been not concerned since you began posting months ago. Whatever you decide to do, you need a specialist hospital practice to investigate.

 

[ester]

I also thought the hock injections were done as a result of a hospital referral for work up?

 

[JFTDWS]

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Have you actually had his eyes checked? I think it's odd the way he has clearly clocked the bush, but lurches slightly towards it and puts his nose in it. Sometimes making a bee-line for an object is an indicator that they need to investigate it further, rather than that they've seen it and processed it as fine...

That said, I suspect he has deeper and more complex issues given the other video and his movement.

 

[Horsekaren]

No, my chiro vet spoke to my local practice who wanted him in to xrays and to do an initial work up, they then found the hock arthritis. He hasnt yet been refereed as we found the arthritis which was injected but either hasnt worked or is not the primary issue.

 

[ester]

gah, that's annoying as they have essentially spent money out of your insurance budget. His issues have never looked simple hence why people here have been so pro-referral.

 

[LaurenBay]

You aren't too far from Newmarket. I would highly recommend Rossdales at Newmarket. My mare went there and had the best care. I would take him there, write all symptoms and show them the vids and say you want a full lameness work up carried out.

Wouldn't it just be easier if Horses could speak to us!