Tell we what you see , besides a lame pony

[TotalMadgeness]

My next step would be a full body bone scan. If insured for it!

 

[holeymoley]

Not read any other replies but looks like pelvis/hocks to me.

Eta -neurological crossed my mind then decided against it.

 

[holeymoley]

Neck possibly has a bit part to play or it is secondary to something behind.

eyes- i like the curve ball idea but its not his eyes, he often sets towards objects on purpose, if there is a cone or a barrel in an area he often makes a b line for them just to kick them over. He knew the bush was there.

Feet, possibly, vet said he was slightly foot sore on one of his fronts on hard ground but wasnt concerned.

Scats- When you say suspensory is this below his hock? would you think the issue is above or below the hock?

YCBM - its got something to do with putting the weight back i am sure of it. He is insured. The Arthritis is by no means severe, its very early stages which makes me wonder if this is secondary. regardless i doubt the injections have helped if he has done this within a week.

I will research wobblers but i think i have looked at this before and it doesnt seem right, its a response to pain. if you add the below video to the equation, this is him sleeping, he does this a fare bit. he doesnt lay down but will roll a lot. Its like he cant lock something he should be able to. Or its sleep deprivation which is what vet suggested before but could it all be linked? The clip was after he was let out of box rest so the poor thing was exhausted, i would say he probably does this 1 - 3 times a day. Vet not concerned

To add he is asleep in this clip, starting to go into REM, he isnt just stretching, he falls and it wakes him up slowely. i'm sure that clear but ive been told a few times he is stretching *roles eyes*


He is insured and i really want answers.

This video looks like sleep deprivation

 

[LegOn]

Really hope you find some answers - what a lucky horse to have you as their human, try not to be too hard on yourself - you are doing everything you can. I really hope you find some answers for your lovely boy. Look after yourself aswell xx

 

[Annagain]

I'd be pretty sure that the second video is sleep deprivation. Does he lie down to sleep? My money would be on him not lying down to sleep due to pain while going down or getting back up and that's what causing that reaction. A friend's horse had something similar, although he'd keel over and then struggle to get back up so was PTS. They didn't investigate as he was old and retired due to arthritis so assumed it was that progressing.

I hope you get some answers soon. We had a year of not being able to work out my share horse's issue and it was horrible. My OH is in the police and has ended up in hospital more times that I can remember due to injuries on duty. I just roll my eyes at him. The horses not being right will have me in floods of tears though.

 

[eggs]

My old mare used to do something similar to your second video and we put it down to narcolepsy. It only every happened when she was standing still.

If your horse isn't lying down then that to me is a strong indicator of pain somewhere. I would get a referral to an equine centre - I have used Newmarket Equine Hospital a few times and they have been great. Do not spend any more money with your current vets as it is highly likely that any referral centre will just repeat any scans/ x-rays, etc that your vets have already done and that will just eat into your insurance.

Ask your horse to walk backwards over a pole on the ground. If he has difficulty with that I would tend to think there is a neurological issue

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would go to Newmarket and have a full work up and assessment done if your insurance will allow, when I took mine for lameness issues I dealt with Andy who's surname escapes me but his there lameness man, and I recommend Tim Barrett who works alongside him, they got to the bottom of both of my horses issues, my friend took her horse there he was basically stopping in canter and nose flipping so not lameness as such more of a lack if performance work up, they found diastamas in his mouth and he was very sore through his poll.

Newmarket are very good you can tell them how much insurance you have left and they will let you know of costs, they also do payment plans if not insured or if it's more, the only thing some insurance won't pay is livery one of mine was there a week and it's not that extortionate considering the care they have.

 

[McFluff]

I didn't want to read and run - really feel for you as this is clearly a difficult one. Can't add to the good advice on here already, just wanted to send HHO healing vibes...

 

[scats]

OP- sorry, I can’t quote your post where you ask me about suspensories (my iPad is a pain to do quotes) but yes, it’s beneath the hock.
Suspensories problems often come hand in hand with SI and back problems and also spavin (effectively hock arthritis)
You may find you are dealing with a few things that are probably connected.
I speak from experience as last year I sent a challenging case into the hospital. Initially diagnosed with mild hock arthritis and injected with steroids. It made no difference. Sent her back. She had back and SI issues too but nothing that anyone could give me a definite diagnosis of, just that she was ‘sore’. I had an inkling and pushed for a suspensory scan and bingo.

If I were you, I would send in for a full lameness investigation and ask for no stone unturned. I would ask for a suspensory scan though, my well known vet hospital didn’t include that in their investigation until I asked. They got hung up on the hocks when in reality, I don’t think the hock issue has ever been the cause of Polly’s problems.

 

[Tarragon]

I just wanted to say that I really feel for you as whatever action you take is going to be a hard one.
Personally I would do some serious soul searching, with you heart and then again with your head, on your own and with a trusted and sensible friend, and write it all down in pros and cons format just to try and rationalise your real feelings on everything. Some of these options being suggested are lengthy and potentially expensive, and your lovely horse will be in the middle of it all. How will he react to it all? What is his mindset? what outcomes could there be and how would you be able to cope with each of them?
Thinking of you. You are being a lovely and caring owner to this horse.

 

[splashgirl45]

cant add anything to what has already been said but want to say what a good owner you are and really hope you get some answers for your horse that gives him a good quality of life.....fingers crossed that something is found that can be treated and you have him for many years...such a shame for both him and you

 

[Horsekaren]

He owes me nothing , I owe him so much, hopefully he can get back to some sort of work but if he is retired he will live out his days with me comfortably. Buts let’s not get to ahead of ourselves, I know he is happy just being a horse. When he is unhappy his behaviour soon changes, he hasn’t shown any signs of this. You wouldn’t know anything was wrong watching him in the field. Hopefully we can figure it all out but my love for this horse is enormous, as long as he is comfortable then that’s all I ask, my goals can be forgotten as long as he is happy.

Hopefully my chiro vet will guid us well tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice and comments, we will get there ... where ever there is x

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would be suspicious of the neck in the 1st photo and agree that the 2nd pic probably shows that there is pain somewhere which means that he doesn't lie down to sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if his neck was painful, he seems to move it awkwardly in the 'stretching' pic.

I would want my vet to be concerned, so in your position, I would ask for a referral to a specialist vet. I have no experience of Tom Beech et al but I do use a local specialist chiro/vet and if my horse were showing similar symptoms, I would want him to look at it.

I do hope that you get to the bottom of this, without too much work having to be done but would also caution speaking to your insurance company, they are generally shocking for trying to wriggle out of paying

 

[gunnergundog]

I would go to Newmarket and have a full work up and assessment done if your insurance will allow, when I took mine for lameness issues I dealt with Andy who's surname escapes me but his there lameness man, and I recommend Tim Barrett who works alongside him, .

Andy Bathe?

 

[Theocat]

Late to this, and nothing to add to getting a proper workout, but one observation on the bush - it almost looks as though he's using it as a "handrail", and making contact with him to help himself navigate it while he's feeling wobbly. It doesn't look like just interest to me. I think that comes down to eyes, or something around spatial awareness/processing.

I am so sorry you're going through this. Do bear in mind that if you throw everything at diagnostics you'll have nothing left for treatment, so have an honest conversation with your vet.

I don't personally think it is likely that box rest would be a good option for this horse or for a lot of what's been mentioned as a possible cause. Box rest is sometimes used because it is a faster (not necessarily better) route than turning away for a longer period, so depending on what investigations find, have a good discussion about a period of field rest - even if it takes longer - rather than just going along with box rest automatically.

 

[scats]

Sorry OP, I missed the second video completely somehow.

Could he have narcolepsy?

 

[PapaverFollis]

I think a full work up is in order. But keep a consideration as to what diagnostics actually affect treatment as someone said. No point testing whether it's problem X or problem Y when treatment for both is field rest until better for example!

I don't really have any helpful input but I just want to say that the second video does NOT look like sleep deprivation to me. It's similar yes but to me it's a significantly different motion pattern. Sleep deprivation that I've seen involved head nodding and the front end slowly sinking with some knee buckle, before a jerk awake. Your boy does a hind leg and pelvis twitch before going doing onto a stretch. His movement is quite jerky throughout.

I hope you get some answers soon.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Sorry you seem to have one thing after another with your lad.

Re the falling down. Is your horse out with others or on his own in a paddock? My old boy did this last year I was on the yard talking to the saddler about my new horse and he was dozing over the stable door when suddenly went down like a tonne of bricks. Luckily he was ok. This was the first year he’d been turned out 24hrs and they were then in separate although adjacent paddocks. I truly believe in his case it was sleep deprivation as he didn’t feel safe lying down outside without a buddy to stand over him. They’ve been in the same paddock together ever since and it’s not reoccurred.

As an aside I never see him lie down (once in 14yrs) just evidence that he does whilst my new horse is often lying down at various times of day especially in the morning.

Re you first video it was quite short and part of it I thought he backed off because it looks like you were directing him into the bush. I had a suspected wobbler and I got him referred to the AHT at Newmarket and saw Sue Dyson for a definitive opinion. It was not cheap and there were no successful treatments although I did try with steroid injections and physio.

 

[ester]

I am confused by the sleeping one I thought he had stopped doing that after the sleep deprivation diagnosis associated with his breathing.

I know the horse vet corner group got brought up earlier but you will see a lot of similar videos on there and they pretty much always say sleep deprivation over narcolepsy which is much rarer.

I think one of the issues of your vets potentially working him up piecemeal rather than referring is that if you don't find anything whether insurance will pay. If you work lots of things up at the same time and find like say the hocks to inject they can be more accepting. He's got a lot going on with the sleeping, breathing, his movement and previous demeanours and there may or may not be a diagnosable answer as he clearly isn't a textbook case.

 

[charterline]

You could be looking for a needle in a haystack, however gleaning from what people have suggested on here:

Worm for the encysted redworm, wont cost much and is easy to do. No doubt this wont be the cause of the problems, but you never know it may just be contributing towards them.

Get a vet out to have a look at his eyes. I'm sure a reasonably experienced vet should have some inkling if there is something wrong, even if they are not an expert.

See if you could get a prompt appointment with Tom Beech/Rob Jackson, or someone else similar. I'd probably guess not, but they may just well find something that a "normal" oesto/chiro doesn't.

Go to a proper vet hospital for further tests/investigations. I cant really suggest what, however I'd have a good think about what you want, what you think is likely to be the problem, and how much you have to spend. Make sure the hospital knows exactly what procedures you want doing to start with (at least) and how much money you have to spend on diagnosis and treatment. A lot of practise will quite happily run the horse through every machine going, leaving you with an enormous diagnostics bill with nothing left on the insurance for treatment.

 

[Horse2018]

It looks like arthritis to me it would also explain him not being able to lie down. Horses don’t need to be old to get arthritis or lamintis since he is heavy.

 

[Horsekaren]

Well, well , well!
Chiro vet was actually super pleased with him! Actually she was sooo soooo sooooo pleased I didn’t see that coming! No pain over his si what so ever, happy over his back, shoulders, a bit tense over pole but nothing ab normal. She said he was tracking up about a foot more than last time which is amazing. She said he has got issues with his hocks so he is never going to track up like a Thorobred, it’s not in his build then add the hock situation so I need to accept he is always going to be a bit shorter behind than some horses.

I showed her both videos, she is going to send to rossdales to see what they think, but thought neurological. she told me to get back on board, aim for four mins of walking with a contact, but take it easy, so tomorrow I’m going to hop on for 15 mins of walk on long rein ( straight line hack) 4 mins of a walk on contact and then a min or two of trot on a long rein. If the issues are still there then that will be clear.
I literally cannot believe all the pain has gone over his back, she couldn’t touch him without him moving away and flinching four weeks ago.

very happy with the visit but confused, essentially I need to get back on to see what he does.

Fingers and toes crossed!

 

[charterline]

if its likely to be neurological, is it safe to be riding?

 

[MyBoyChe]

I thought that too Charterline, surely if neurological it would mean an element of unpredictability?

 

[Red-1]

No way would I ride this horse.

Although I don't doubt this horse has hock pain (visible in earlier ridden videos as well as before he encountered the bush area in video 1) I really don't think the hock pain is causing these more outlandish symptoms.

In the first video the horse DOES take weight on the hocks, he steps right under. I am unsure as to weather he is camped under to avoid pain or because he has neuro disorientation.

The second video, he is not stretching, he is standing nice and relaxed, the he has a jump which looks like a pain response (left hind?), followed by a learned response to stretch.

I would not use a local vet for this, it would be a lameness specialist, with videos and expect a full spine X ray as a starter, and possible bone scan/mri.

Would I do that if it were mine? Yes, possibly if it were insured. If not I would X ray only and expect it to not be good news.

My heart horse Jay had a set of X rays when he became a wobbler. His spine was not that bad, but we tried a steroid course and strong pain killer/anti inflammatories orally (being as no spot was awful enough to inject).

This did not work, and I could have scanned/ mri'ed (only used 2.2K of a 5 K vet insurance allowance) but I decided that actually nothing much could be done so I gave him retirement and when that became unfeasible due to worsening symptoms then I PTS.

Of course, with your horse, the lameness expert at one of the major equine hospitals may find something easily fixable. The horse may be a drama lama. But, if it were me I would go straight to the top experts and see what they say, and not ride in the mean time.

 

[Leo Walker]

I am genuinely shocked and horrified that your chiro vet can look at those videos, find no issues, suggest its neurological and say get back on board! The hocks may be better and thats great, but it looks like theres something else going on. I'd be sacking the chiro vet immediately.

In your shoes I'd still be doing what I said earlier on, Tom Beech and then if he didnt find and at least start on fixing an issue on the first visit I'd be going straight to Newmarket or whatever vet school is closest. I'd tell them there was x amount left on the insurance and to work him up but to not spend more than y amount without my authorisation.

What I wouldnt do is get back on board. I hoped as I know you did, that the hock injections would fix him, but clearly they havent, so you need to dig a little deeper.

 

[Leo Walker]

and expect a full spine X ray as a starter, and possible bone scan/mri.

Hes had his spine xrayed. I think thats what makes this so frustrating. The vets have seen him several times and have done a basic investigation, xrays of his spine and hocks and steroid injections etc. Hes clearly not right and we can all see it but its really hard for HK as from her point of view 2 vets have now said hes fine in the last couple of weeks.

 

[Red-1]

Hes had his spine xrayed. I think thats what makes this so frustrating. The vets have seen him several times and have done a basic investigation, xrays of his spine and hocks and steroid injections etc. Hes clearly not right and we can all see it but its really hard for HK as from her point of view 2 vets have now said hes fine in the last couple of weeks.

To me full spine would include neck (it did when I had myself MRI'ed - all the way from head to coccyx!) and if that were all clear I would stand by my original comment to have it referred to a specialist hospital for specialist lameness investigation rather than a local vet. If X rays were of high quality (which I guess would have needed a large hospital) then MRI/scan would be next, if that was the route I chose to go.

I also stand by what I said that I would not ride this horse. Amazing to me that a professional would look at those videos and think that hopping on tomorrow is a good idea.

I do think that sometimes a general antinflammatory and long term rest can help, sadly they did not help in my horse's case.

 

[Sandstone1]

I think it would be dangerous to ride this horse. Im Sorry for you as it seems you are trying your best to get to the bottom of whatever is wrong but looking at those videos especially the second one it would be really risky to ride him.
I do hope you find out whats wrong and its fixable but please do be careful around him.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Why on earth would a vet suggest neurological problems and then advise the owner to ride the horse?

Please don't ride until you have got to the bottom of this and ruled out neuro problems, for your safety and the horse's comfort.