Tell we what you see , besides a lame pony

gunnergundog

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2010
Messages
3,294
Visit site
Spine may have x-rayed clear but has neck been checked? Specifically, c6, c7. Abnormalities there are notorious for throwing up hind neurological problems.

What neurological tests did your chiro vet carry out HK?

Regardless of answers to above I would NOT be riding this horse until I had the all clear from a referral hospital. I have known of people who have been disabled (badly) due to a horse collapsing whilst ridden and them ending up underneath.
 

HobleytheTB

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 November 2018
Messages
232
Visit site
Sorry, I have nothing useful to add other than to second those who suggested looking at the neck as a source of something neurological.

Well done for getting those moments on camera, hopefully if you can get him to the horsepital those will be helpful in figuring things out. I really hope you can get to the bottom of this, what a worry.
 

DabDab

Ah mud, splendid
Joined
6 May 2013
Messages
12,572
Visit site
Personally I wouldn't get on a horse displaying the behaviours shown in these videos.

I agree with others, you need to hand him over for a full work up, for your own sanity if nothing else.
 

Turitea

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 August 2007
Messages
996
Visit site
My money is on a neurological disorder, may it be Wobbler syndrome or something else. Anyway, I hope you find the cause of all of this. :)
 

Lurfy

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 June 2016
Messages
547
Location
Canberra, Australia
Visit site
Until he is working comfortably on the long line I wouldn't be getting on his back. It just adds more burden on an already uncomfortable horse. It is also potentially dangerous. Personally I wouldn't be working him at all until you know what is going on. I wish you all the best with getting him the right professional help and hopefully he makes a full recovery.
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
I don't understand what "tracking up like a thoroughbred" means - a sound horse of any breeding will track up correctly, including cobs. An unsound or compromised horse will not. It has nothing to do with breeding.
I sort of do, on the basis that racers walking round the paddock do tend to look a bit odd to me!
 

Trouper

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
2,464
Visit site
Sorry, but I think that is some very odd advice from your chiropractor and, like others have said, PLEASE do not get back on this horse yet. We may all be wrong but it is not worth the risk that we are right and that there is something -not yet diagnosed - that will lead to unpredictable behaviour on his part which might endanger you. You cannot help him if you are injured. The half-way house before Newmarket is someone like Tom Beech who is an experienced equine vet but who looks at the horse holistically and can set you off on the right path. Would be worth sending him the videos at least - one visit from Tom is worth endless chiro visits (including financially!). I do hope you get some answers soon.
 

DD

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 August 2015
Messages
2,306
Location
Albion
Visit site
Horse is showing symptoms of pain especially in nearside hind leg. could be more than one joint affected anything from hip to fetlock.
 

Lois Lame

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 May 2018
Messages
1,616
Visit site
I'm going out on a limb here...

I've watched the first video several times over the last 2 or 3 days and really, I can't see any lameness.

I can see the way he is moving of course, but I'm putting that down to the long reining.

The shrub seems to be in a position where you must be going to pass in front of it and it surprised me that you passed behind it. (That's all beside the point I suppose.) The inside rein becomes a lot firmer and that's why he does all that maneuvering, imo.

The second video...

His stance is a little odd with those hind legs stretched out a bit, at the beginning.

If he was going to have a decent sleep, he would lay down. Someone asked if you've ever seen him laying down and I'm wondering the same thing. Check during the morning. Horses at grass love that time of day to have a proper, snoring, sleep.

Is he turned out alone? Does he have a companion to stand guard while he sleeps?

I don't know why he does what he does unless he is sleep deprived due to not wanting to lie down.
 

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
This is going to be a long post, I feel like I may as well smash my head into a wall to make things clearer.



Firstly- the neurological issues were mentioned in terms of his sleeping habits, apparently this is a lot more common than you would expect and some horses literally just have a sleeping disorder. He has done this since Ive had him, he did it more at the last yard. I had a camera in his stable and he would lie down for about 3 -6 minutes a night, the rest of the time he would do what he does in the video. He just doesn’t lay down, we know he has sore hocks so this could be why. Its not an issue with getting up and down as he rolls a lot. When he does this it isn’t a random thing, it is when he stands and decided to go to sleep, he doesn’t just drop down randomly. He lives in a herd of 3 boys, he is second in command, he has a gelding and a mare next door and a old 35 year old mare (I call her nana) in the other adjacent field. He is the watchman over them all, they all lay down apart from the old girl and he stands over them all.



A few of you mentioned wobblers, I'm not a vet but In my heart I really don’t think this is the issue, he is coordinated, can turn tight circles, will react to a tail pull ect. Since I have owned him he has always tried to ram me into the fence, if there is a bush he will rub into it, cones, barrels ect he will pull me towards them just to kick them over, often to then have an itch. I could be wrong but ive always seen it as him being cheeky (for example he will do it to the mounting block, he will trample over it and knock it over, im sure he does it on purpose)



The first video is confused because of that damn bush, he didn’t do this before or after it was just as I poorly tried to steer him around the bush, as someone has said above it looks as though we are going one way then I take him another, he has his moment and then had a good sniff of the bush most probably sussing out if its edible. I know it doesn’t look right, I am not ignoring it, its very much at the forefront of my mind.



So to revisit the facts

-hocks injected 10 days ago

-4 weeks ago was in terrible pain over his back/ now the pain is nowhere to be seen (I think this has something partly to do with not being ridden)

-6 weeks off work

-He isn’t in any clear pain when prodded, pulled, flexions test, no heat, no swelling

-new saddle 7 weeks ago

-head shakes this time of year





My chiro vet said injections tend to last between 6 - 12 weeks she said he isn’t in pain and he trotted up really well. She did say that he anticipates pain, at first when she touched him his ears went back as if to expect it, he then realised its not there and she could bounce on his SI and back like it was a suspension with no reaction. So could this be anticipation on the long lines.



I did get on board yesterday, I had to for my own sanity and im left more confused. Last time I rode him he threw me off, and the time before he did and big bronk that scared me (all be it at a loud bang but my confidence has been knocked) I felt sick before I got on and was pretty shakey on board. He walked fine for 10 mins, then he started to jog. I asked him to trot and he would speed off or pop up into canter (not a muddled gate it was a big canter) He did this 3 times and I was too scared and confused so I got off. He didn’t feel lame and he felt like he wanted to go go go. Possibly he is feeling good and fresh or he is running and warning me.



I hate to say it but I popped him on the lunge after, he pulled away and cantered around the school a few times. His canter looked good to be honest. He has always tried to pull off but as im not sure if he is sore I just drop the line rather than whip him round as I don’t want to injure him. He did this when the vets lunged him so it’s a habit I got out of him but he is learning again. He walked nicely on both reins, I then I asked for trot, he cantered a little bit and then settled into a nice big trot and he began to stretch. The vet had said before he was lacking power behind, everyone on here has said it, I can honestly say there was power, I felt like he was a bit out of control zooming around but as soon as I tapped him behind the power stayed and a stretch came. I didn’t trot him for long but I had the same response on both reins. Non of this little choppy trot, it was big, he was forward and stretch with a tap behind a slight feel down the line (no gadgets)



If a lameness work up was done without any ridden I really don’t think they would see anything to home in on. In terms of the ridden work up I don’t know if he is still doing his movements as I haven't given him a chance to show me. I've got myself in such a state that I don’t know how I am going to get back on and ride him.



I have given myself 2 options both include



SADDLE FITTER! 8 weeks ago he did the most amazing canter in his old 17 inch TG dressage cob saddle, a lot of you said it was the best you had seen him move and things looked like they were going well. 7 Weeks ago I changed to a 17.5 inch KM GP cob and it could be coincidence or not but it all fell apart, bucking became more frequent, the cloth slipped from under it, he got grumpy with his girth and then all the pain came. I tried to put his old one on him but it clearly doesn’t fit so yesterday I tried with the new one but something is telling me its not right. I am going to get his old one refitted as soon as I can.



Secondly I need to bring him back into some sort of work, as I am not sure about the saddle I am going to do this from the ground, 3 times a week, long line, lunge on a big big big circle not in the arena, in hand walk and maybe free school. If he shows me any more signs then this will stop.



Options

Option 1


Saddle fitter/ ground work and get Tom Beech or Rob Jackson out to see him, show the xrays and see what they think. If they thought there was something soft tissue related going on would they be able to suggest this or would they likely seem him, say he is unusual and leave me in the same situation. I know they don’t have xray eyes but are the expects is this type of thing or more just back issues ect.



Option 2

Send him for a ridden lameness work up knowing that he has been treated for hocks and I haven't given him or myself any opportunity to see if this has helped as all I can see at the moment is a fresh horse that has had a moment on the long lines. Does anyone know how much a ridden lameness work up costs roughly, and I presume they provide a good standard rider?




Thoughts?
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
21,347
Visit site
Karen, genuine question with no hidden agenda. Have you considered how far you are wanting to dig with this horse in an effort to fix him? What sort of money you are wanting to spend?

There will be many of us on here that have had horses go wrong over the years - it is emotionally and financially draining. But sometimes as much as we want to do the right thing, throw everything at them etc, sometimes that is just giving them a pat and telling them ‘that’s okay, you don’t need to be ridden’.

He clearly has a few things going on that makes it difficult to see the wood from the trees. I just fear you will keep throwing a lot of money after a horse who possibly would be better off retired. I’ve been there, it’s gutting! But once that decision is made it’s actually a huge relief and all that worry that builds up dissipates.

Something to consider

ETA - quite a while ago you posted photos of your boy from a previous ownership and then in the state you got him from a dealer. Those photos were very very telling. Something pretty serious had happened to him in that time period for his shape to change so alarmingly, you will probably never know what unfortunately.
 

LaurenBay

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 November 2010
Messages
5,883
Location
Essex
Visit site
HK You must be very confused, BUT wouldn't you rather know for sure so that when you ride you won't have all the questions?

I'd go for option 2, if he is insured your insurance will cover costs. They will lunge him for you and provide a rider.

I went back and fro with my mare and got saddle,teeth and loads of pysio before I got vet. I wish I had just saved the money and went for the vet as they found the issue. Didn't matter what saddle I rode in, she was still in pain.
 

only_me

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 June 2007
Messages
14,038
Location
Ireland
Visit site
Just wanted to say I wouldn’t to be injecting steroids every 6 weeks as after time they wear off - I’d be aiming for every 3 months at least. Preferably more than that!

If you believe it is all just related to his hocks then I’d send him to rehab livery with a water treadmill or swimming pool who works closely with a Physio (not a chiro!!) and get his muscles working correctly.

I still think you should have his hocks scanned to check for soft tissue damage and I would have thought that would have been done at same time of xrays tbh.

I’ve little experience of neuro issues in horses but purely on his behavior on ground I wouldn’t be riding him.

If you put him out in field and retired him, with just maintaining his hocks, the money you would save on vets could potentially buy you a horse that can be ridden and enjoyed.
 

piglet2001

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 March 2014
Messages
153
Visit site
Karen, genuine question with no hidden agenda. Have you considered how far you are wanting to dig with this horse in an effort to fix him? What sort of money you are wanting to spend?

There will be many of us on here that have had horses go wrong over the years - it is emotionally and financially draining. But sometimes as much as we want to do the right thing, throw everything at them etc, sometimes that is just giving them a pat and telling them ‘that’s okay, you don’t need to be ridden’.

He clearly has a few things going on that makes it difficult to see the wood from the trees. I just fear you will keep throwing a lot of money after a horse who possibly would be better off retired. I’ve been there, it’s gutting! But once that decision is made it’s actually a huge relief and all that worry that builds up dissipates.

Something to consider

ETA - quite a while ago you posted photos of your boy from a previous ownership and then in the state you got him from a dealer. Those photos were very very telling. Something pretty serious had happened to him in that time period for his shape to change so alarmingly, you will probably never know what unfortunately.

Is there a chance you could link the before and after pictures for those of us that didn't see these. It would be interesting to see. Thanks
 

Horsekaren

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 March 2017
Messages
1,300
Visit site
i know it is unethical to ride a horse in pain but my issue is i have been told he isn't in pain. I have seen it with my eyes, he isn't reacting to anything, even the girthyness has settled which he has always done. His hocks have been treated but im now a big ball of nerves frightened that i'm going to break him or he he is going to catapult me that i cant see if its worked.

In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different.

I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!
 

ihatework

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2004
Messages
21,347
Visit site
If you have insurance money left then you may as well use it. Just make sure you know what is/isn’t covered otherwise you might find yourself out of pocket further.

I think you are too close to this and too inexperienced to really know the gravity (or not) of the situation. I’m actually not sat here thinking the horse shouldn’t be ridden. But I think, if he is going to be ridden it needs to be by someone very experienced and impartial, away from your yard and with the view it’s partly assessment, partly rehab and partly schooling. Someone who can really give you an insight into what they are currently feeling under saddle without the historical baggage/preconceptions - and importantly, someone who will come back to you if needed and say ‘he’s bust, save your money’. But that won’t come cheap and won’t be under insurance.
 

LaurenBobby

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 July 2018
Messages
94
Visit site
I really feel for you HK, it cannot be easy with all the uncertainty. If it was me and for my own piece of mind, I would want a full lameness investigation done with a trusted vet. At my vets we have a specialist lameness investigator vet, who Ive used previously and trust. If I did not have this and did not trust my local vets, or I thought they were going to send me round the houses, I would go to a referral vet. I know I could not settle until I knew the route cause. Sometimes there are more than one thing going on at once and its really hard to see the wood from the trees.
 

splashgirl45

Lurcher lover
Joined
6 March 2010
Messages
15,044
Location
suffolk
Visit site
i know it is unethical to ride a horse in pain but my issue is i have been told he isn't in pain. I have seen it with my eyes, he isn't reacting to anything, even the girthyness has settled which he has always done. His hocks have been treated but im now a big ball of nerves frightened that i'm going to break him or he he is going to catapult me that i cant see if its worked.

In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different.

I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!


i for one absolutely hear where you are coming from. i was also a 1 horse owner and could barely afford her, when she couldnt be ridden, i stopped riding and she was happy in the field, and so was i even though i couldnt ride, i still looked after her the same as before when she was in work. when she wasnt comfortable in the field was the signal to PTS, this was in 2016 and if she had been ok in the field i would still have her, so i agree, just because they cant be ridden doesnt mean PTS , some people dont think the same and none of us are wrong but i agree with you. good luck with finding out what is wrong...
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,384
Location
Northampton
Visit site
HK hes not right and you know that or you wouldnt be posting. I know you hoped the hock injections would fix it and I really did as well

I know how hard it is. I pushed mine who was sound but not quite right until there was a accident. I was incredibly lucky no one got hurt. He was retired on the spot as I didnt want to start investigating and putting us both through all that and he was clearly happy in the field.

If you dont want to work him up at this point what about a second opinion? I've mentioned it a few times now but I would be on the phone to Tom Beech and doing whatever it took to get him out. Hes a vet, he wont mess you about. If he cant fix him he will refer you on, but hes had such good results with so many cases like this. He spends ages with you and is very much about looking at the whole horse. He will cost you a couple of hundred quid, you can put it through on the insurance if you have a claim open.

It doesnt have to be Tom Beech, he would be my choice but there are untold amounts of people you can get a second opinion from. You just need to pick someone who will listen to your concerns and take the whole horse and all the little niggly things into account.
 

ester

Not slacking multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
60,198
Location
Cambridge
Visit site
IHW the before and after pictures were also a big concern for me at the time and the longer this goes on I do worry that something rather big had happened to him in between times, like he'd had a big accident or something, it was absolutely not to do with his weight. I did try to find them again recently but it seemed the old links were broken.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,384
Location
Northampton
Visit site
I will find the before and after pictures, but look closer, dont just see a big horse to a thin horse, look at how big he was, neither was good but the big picture looks like a health issue waiting to happen. He isnt a heavyweight cob!

Get them out and do what you did with the videos. Its not about weight, he was fat and thats not good. Look at them very careful. Look at his posture and demeanor and compare it. Compare them to pictures of happy sound horses in similar poses and you will start to see what a lot of us here can see in a glance.

You also need to watch the video on pain face and lameness

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
12,384
Location
Northampton
Visit site
IHW the before and after pictures were also a big concern for me at the time and the longer this goes on I do worry that something rather big had happened to him in between times, like he'd had a big accident or something. I did try to find them again recently but it seemed the old links were broken.

He was a quality driving horse who suddenly ended up at a dealers as a riding horse. Something very definitely went wrong. Sometimes its just an accident that damages them mentally, but I think in this case its looking like more than that.

Could you speak to the old owners?
 
  • Like
Reactions: DD

Ellietotz

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 June 2014
Messages
2,274
Visit site
In terms of how far i am going to dig, this is my horse, i cant afford another and i wouldn't just end his life if they say he cant be ridden. I only get one shot at this, all my eggs are in his basket, if he stops work, i stop my ridden journey with him. I know some people would PTS a horse that cant do what is needed but i just dont have it in me to do that, if he is retired to a field he is retired. He is my responsibility, He isn't just something i want to sit on he is my friend. I know that sounds like soft soppy mumbo jumbo but that is it. So it is important to me to do the right thing and not piss away the insurance money. If he was in unbareble pain then that is different.
That actually brought tears to my eyes. He's really lucky to have someone like you.
I really hope you get to the bottom of all of this soon, you've done so much already. Even if it does mean you have to retire him, as long as he is turned out in a field to live out the rest of his days and you are certain he is pain free, that's the main thing.
 
Top