Tension in Dressage

Red-Nose said:
But there is a difference between a horse who is excited and putting too much effort in, as in this case they show more energy that is captured and used in the correct way, and a horse who is tense and becomes inverted, as you have said your horse suffers in his frame.

My old horse would buck when excited, but would do so with back raised (not just hind legs LOL), within the pace, here, I will post a photo where he was slightly too alert (due to the fact I was cantering round whilst holding a fly curtain) and you can see that he is still in a correct form. The extra injection of energy is shown in a raised back, more engagement, but all in the correct frame.

I would say look at a video of your test, you should see circles of energy, as in if everything is correct there should be virtual circles of energy, energy recycling.

In a tense horse that is not going correctly, the topline will be shortened and the legs may be higher but it is with a sharper, choppier feel, and that is absolutely incorrect.

BTW, this was a previously sharp and tense horse, undergoing training so he would not be scared of banners etc. So he would not be tense at competitions (but only after a LOT of hand/ground work to teach the "seek" reflex to softly seek the bit, even when under stress (in fact especially then).View attachment 28281
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Not sure about the distinction you are making there between tense and excited. If you watch my gelding out in the field with the others, when excited the Arab in him means he will his natural reaction is to launch into a lengthened floating trot....but he won’t be long and low in his profile...he is up and arched...exactly his reaction at events. The tension in his frame derives from that excitement. That said, I absolutely see where you are coming from in terms of teaching him to seek the contact in stressful or exciting situations and this gives me food for though in terms of how I can work on that at home.

Lovely horse btw.
 
be positive said:
You seem to want a black and white answer when in fact there are numerous shades of grey, the "excited novice" may be being forced and in discomfort by being held back to remain in the arena, it certainly will not be comfortable going in a way it is not used to, the lazy one may be ridden by a person with little experience who is kicking but with very little effect and the horse may well be oblivious, neither is correct and neither will make any meaningful progress until the basics are in place but on the day of the test the lazy one probably showed more correct movements than the tense one.

It all comes back to training, a horse that has a correct start, is relaxed and confident will be easier to train, a lazy horse will usually, with some good training, be able to show improvement fairly quickly and be able to move on to the next level without too much effort, whereas the tense one may revert if it finds new movements difficult and time needs to be spent ironing out the reason for their tension, if it is purely because they find new places exciting and there is generally no tension in their work then a few more outings should fix that to a degree and they should be ready to go out and get far better scores.
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I think I’m more querying some of the black and white answers some people gave. “Kicking a horse is better than an excited horse displaying some tension” and a lot of justifications for kicking which again I struggle to get my head around...particularly when it is referred to as creating harmony. If you have to kick and force a horse at Prelim, how can that horse progress any further?

Your last comment reflects exactly the judge’s in the collectives...once he settles and relaxes he will receive good scores as shows some very promising work. The difference between his first and second time out hopefully means this will bear out.
 
Melodra said:
If you have to kick and force a horse at Prelim, how can that horse progress any further?
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because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment. It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses! It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
 
milliepops said:
because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment. It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses! It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
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You trained her not to be a kick-along...you didn't carry on kicking her though did you? That's not presumably how you taught her to go forward?

As I say at a loss as to anyone who is happy kicking a horse. Totally unethical to me.
 
milliepops said:
because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment. It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses! It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.
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Further, you make the justification for kicking at Prelim..but no similar allowance for over excitement in a novice horse at Prelim? A novice horse is likely to settle with experience...I actually think it's quite difficult to teach a horse that really does not want to go forward once it has been totally desensitised to the leg aids with kicking.
 
Melodra said:
Further, you make the justification for kicking at Prelim..but no similar allowance for over excitement in a novice horse at Prelim? A novice horse is likely to settle with experience...I actually think it's quite difficult to teach a horse that really does not want to go forward once it has been totally desensitised to the leg aids with kicking.
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well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge. I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses? It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses. For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on. you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.
 
milliepops said:
well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge. I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses? It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses. For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on. you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.
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You beg to differ in that you think kicking a horse is ethical?

I did not at any stage say that a horse behind the leg could not progress. I said it wouldn't get there by continuous kicking.

I'm also not sure why you and some others feel the need to get so personal either. From what I've been told I understand there is a clique with you, Cortez and a few others and a reputation for bullying new members you disagree with, but if you would care to read back you will see I have been polite at all times, I have thanked those who have given a constructive viewpoint and I have politely stated where I have disagreed. I strongly disagree that it is ok to kick a horse; if you're kicking your horse you are forcing it through discomfort. Fact.
 
milliepops said:
well i beg to differ, it takes mental discipline and lots of repetition but you can bet your life that plenty of horses that are having success at higher levels of dressage started off being behind the leg and needing to learn to be more sensitive.

It's not my place to justify or make allowances, that's between the rider and the judge. I have made it my place to train my horses though, and I know because I've done it many times over, that they can be taught to respond better to the aids even when they have been totally spoilt by past experiences. You just have to be a little more patient, and a little more persistent.

I think your refusal to see anyone else's point of view on this possibly stems from a lack of experience of retraining horses? It's hard to imagine what is possible if you have limited experience of these types of horses. For many people, it's useful to take the horses out to low level shows as stepping stones to get them a bit more educated, more confident, etc and ready to move on. you are not always seeing the finished article when you watch these competitions.
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Further, I have plenty of experience in retraining horses thank you. Again, why the need to get so personal? I pity your horse if you train it by kicking and force.

I've actually been working all summer with a horse "behind the leg" written off as lazy. He didn't want to go forward, didn't enjoy his work. Doing our research it turned out he had initially been broken by an individual known to be rough...achieving "going on the bit" by sawing at the mouth. We believe that the horse was frightened of being blocked by the hand. He was totally desensitised to the leg and schooling whip, you couldn't get a trot out of him, let alone a canter. We have spent painstaking months teaching that he can go forward without fear or force, or nagging him and making it uncomfortable for him by nagging when he didn't go forward. We didn't do it by fear. We used positive reward and praise. We made sessions fun, doing things he enjoys like walk to canter. When he got it right we would end the session and take him for a stretch or a hack. He is now responsive straight off the leg, and more importantly is happy in his work.

You don't need to kick a horse.
 
ihatework said:
I can add a giant welsh to that list! He is a right little (big) worrier but far too kind & polite to make a big show of it. When he flaps his bottom lip, which is his big brain tension indicator, all I want to do is give him a hug!
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Much smaller welsh lifts his left nostril ;)

I love that Kira is getting pity, given how she was at the start!
 
Melodra said:
You beg to differ in that you think kicking a horse is ethical?

I did not at any stage say that a horse behind the leg could not progress. I said it wouldn't get there by continuous kicking.

I'm also not sure why you and some others feel the need to get so personal either. From what I've been told I understand there is a clique with you, Cortez and a few others and a reputation for bullying new members you disagree with, but if you would care to read back you will see I have been polite at all times, I have thanked those who have given a constructive viewpoint and I have politely stated where I have disagreed. I strongly disagree that it is ok to kick a horse; if you're kicking your horse you are forcing it through discomfort. Fact.
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No, I didn't agree with your assertion that it was difficult to retrain a horse to the leg aid. It's not always a quick turnaround, but it's generally not difficult.

I think force is a bit of a grey area to discuss, to me there are no absolutes with training horses - a fresh or tense horse being restrained to get round a dressage test is arguably being forced via discomfort to do that when its behaviour is demonstrating that it would prefer not to do that.

I'm not getting personal, I just said that your responses appear to stem from a bit of a simplistic understanding of training or retraining horses. Many people who have ridden and trained lots of different horses have posted on this thread, and most have disagreed with the black and white viewpoint that you keep reiterating.

Ticked by the idea of cortez and I being in a clique, we've disagreed over plenty of things over the years, no need to dream up conspiracy theories just because we agree in many aspects at the same time :eek:;)
 
ester said:
I don't consider being told I am not reading posts thoroughly when I am particularly polite, just so you know.
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neither do I find it polite to be told you pity my horse, OP, when you don't even know either of us, nor for you to pull the bullying card out of thin air just because some people have disagreed with you and spent time and effort explaining their position.
This is a welcoming group, we enjoy meaty discussions and get along well with all posters, old and new. it seems a bit strange to start a discussion and then start kicking off when people don't agree with your viewpoint.
 
How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.

I'm not advocating for constantly pony club booting that's very different but I was always taught 'squeeze, kick, tap' to encourage response to the lighter aids first, and for a horse like mine who needs experience at competitions to avoid switching off to subtleties, much like you have said your horse needs experience to stop being tense, how are they expected to learn to cope without going out and competing and perhaps needing encouragement in the form of an occasional kick to get round the test without learning that they can stumble round and not maintain a rhythm or fall out of gait without being asked to transition. I'd much prefer one sharp aid on a backward horse than nagging and squeezing constantly more 'ethically'

As a relatively new member I feel the need to stick my nose in and say nobody on this forum has ever made me feel unwelcome, bullied, or been unpleasant even if we have disagreed on things. From a non-dressage perspective all comments have appeared to me clear, and addressing what appeared to be your question in the original post about why tension would be marked down in a test situation.
 
milliepops said:
No, I didn't agree with your assertion that it was difficult to retrain a horse to the leg aid. It's not always a quick turnaround, but it's generally not difficult.

I think force is a bit of a grey area to discuss, to me there are no absolutes with training horses - a fresh or tense horse being restrained to get round a dressage test is arguably being forced via discomfort to do that when its behaviour is demonstrating that it would prefer not to do that.

I'm not getting personal, I just said that your responses appear to stem from a bit of a simplistic understanding of training or retraining horses. Many people who have ridden and trained lots of different horses have posted on this thread, and most have disagreed with the black and white viewpoint that you keep reiterating.

Ticked by the idea of cortez and I being in a clique, we've disagreed over plenty of things over the years, no need to dream up conspiracy theories just because we agree in many aspects at the same time :eek:;)
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Funny that there are messages in my inbox about it one "they'll argue black is white to the extent that now kicking a horse is harmony"

We were discussing kicking. My OP discusses kicking. You have justified it.

Black and white? Hilarious, it is you and your clique that give black and white answers to back each other up, to the extent that kicking a horse around an arena is "harmonious dressage" You're a joke, frankly. I actually asked the question if a horse that was tense due to over excitement was so much worse than a horse being forced around the ring by its rider. You and your friends said it was. Black and white. I said I saw both as different issues but both still were issues and I didn't feel that a horse being forced in that way should be achieving high dressage scores. Dressage is not about force.

If you look the more experienced posters (and not only those claiming to be experienced) they have tended to err on the side that both are problems that need to be addressed, but an excitable novice horse is likely to settle with experience. They have not justified kicking a horse and you will struggle to find any decent trainer that agrees with you on that.
 
milliepops said:
neither do I find it polite to be told you pity my horse, OP, when you don't even know either of us, nor for you to pull the bullying card out of thin air just because some people have disagreed with you and spent time and effort explaining their position.
This is a welcoming group, we enjoy meaty discussions and get along well with all posters, old and new. it seems a bit strange to start a discussion and then start kicking off when people don't agree with your viewpoint.
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If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I pity any horse kicked and forced.
 
Denzel Bells said:
How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.

I'm not advocating for constantly pony club booting that's very different but I was always taught 'squeeze, kick, tap' to encourage response to the lighter aids first, and for a horse like mine who needs experience at competitions to avoid switching off to subtleties, much like you have said your horse needs experience to stop being tense, how are they expected to learn to cope without going out and competing and perhaps needing encouragement in the form of an occasional kick to get round the test without learning that they can stumble round and not maintain a rhythm or fall out of gait without being asked to transition. I'd much prefer one sharp aid on a backward horse than nagging and squeezing constantly more 'ethically'

As a relatively new member I feel the need to stick my nose in and say nobody on this forum has ever made me feel unwelcome, bullied, or been unpleasant even if we have disagreed on things. From a non-dressage perspective all comments have appeared to me clear, and addressing what appeared to be your question in the original post about why tension would be marked down in a test situation.
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I've explained above how we did it with our horse, who was absolutely numb to the leg and schooling whip. My trainer has an absolute aversion to kicking and nagging and instead focuses on positive reinforcement. That's not to say you can't reinforce a leg aid, but continuous kicking is just going to desensitise the horse.

I've said around a million times that the comments regarding tension were mostly constructive. But what I don't understand is those advocating kicking.
 
Denzel Bells said:
How do you train a horse that's ignoring aids to move forward without an escalation of leg aids? Bearing in mind that I have worked with several instructors and am not blocking with my hands, he is not suffering with any physical issues and tack has been addressed. At home he is light, responsive and forward, in the same way you say at home your horse is not tense in his frame but at the only competitions we have been too Denzel finds it stressful and responds by withdrawing into himself whereas your boy becomes tense. Different issues that arise in a competition situation, but both can be helped with experience of being out and about.
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Mine would be a little like yours in that he would be inclined to just withdraw into himself a bit and drop off the leg. Otherwise he behaves immaculately so it would be all too easy to overlook.

I used a lot of non-competitive outings for him for 6 months, most weeks. A mix of RC group clinics, private away lessons but sharing school, test riding practice and also the most helpful was a local BD venue who does ‘ride in sessions’, so they have an hour slot, their 3 arenas open and up to 15 people sharing.
 
Melodra, you have been very far from polite to quite a lot of people. No one has been rude to you: not agreeing with you is not rudeness it is simply having a different view. No one is advocating kicking horses, kicking is not good riding. Perhaps you have missed the more pertinent point that tension is viewed as a greater problem than tension, which would appear to be your difficulty in understanding in the original question.
 
lol it sounds like you are the one in the clique then OP! :D

You objected strongly to having words put in your mouth earlier, do me the kindness of not doing the same? If you believe I have said that kicking a horse round an arena his harmonious, please find the post and quote it. I am not remotely bothered if you think I'm a joke, if that's the level of discussion you have descended to then I think it says more about you than me tbh :)
 
ester said:
I think MP can take it's just best not to claim you are unfailing polite while doing the dishing...

I do love it when PMs that may or may not exist get brought into on board conversations.
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Don't worry Ester, you were given a specific mention :-)
 
Cortez said:
Melodra, you have been very far from polite to quite a lot of people. No one has been rude to you: not agreeing with you is not rudeness it is simply having a different view. No one is advocating kicking horses, kicking is not good riding. Perhaps you have missed the more pertinent point that tension is viewed as a greater problem than tension, which would appear to be your difficulty in understanding in the original question.
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And you are known for bullying new members. You've forced people off these forums. Seriously upset people.
 
milliepops said:
lol it sounds like you are the one in the clique then OP! :D

You objected strongly to having words put in your mouth earlier, do me the kindness of not doing the same? If you believe I have said that kicking a horse round an arena his harmonious, please find the post and quote it. I am not remotely bothered if you think I'm a joke, if that's the level of discussion you have descended to then I think it says more about you than me tbh :)
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I asked you specifically about kicking. I would take a look at your response.
 
Melodra said:
And you are known for bullying new members. You've forced people off these forums. Seriously upset people.
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I am a new member and I have had conversations and discussions with all these people you have said are in a clique and despite us not always agreeing on things, I have never felt bullied by any of them. But perhaps the difference is I appreciate and accept the viewpoints of people who are clearly a lot more experienced than I am.
 
It's been an interesting thread, with lots of food for thought. Excessive tension in dressage is a bug bear of mine.

I wondered why the OP decided to troll under a new username, then it became clear. So that they could rubbish many of the more knowledgable regular posters.

But thanks anyway, most peeps, for giving so much insight into real issues in training, and suggestions on how to deal with them.
 
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