Tension in Dressage

DabDab said:
I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.
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what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread ;)
 
but if a horse is excited then its
Melodra said:
There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. It’s very clear from my post.
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But you don't WANT excitement in dressage, you want zen and relaxation. Excitement means you have raised levels of adrenaline going through your body. This physical reaction totally interrupts the muscles and body working harmoniously. It causes the breathing to shorten and get shallow, which affects flow to the brain and affects your thinking

All the sports psychologists say that your body cannot tell the difference between fear and excitment, and if you get nerves before an xc course, to just tell your brain you are excited, and that will switch your thinking to a positive mindset. We went to a charlie unwin talk where he hooked up riders to heart and breathing monitors. When people get excited their breathing gets shallower and quicker, the heart rate increases, muscles get tenser and they don't think as clearly or move their muscles properly.

A horse can be happy and relaxed and enjoying a test and do well. An excited horse, however, has physical things going on in its body that are counter reactive to dressage principles, even on a base level of how their muscles are able to work.
 
shortstuff99 said:
No I haven't misquoted you I used your actual words and that is not what a smear is either. And what is clear from your posts is you think that tension caused by an excitable horse should be seen as better than a horse being kicked or tense from pain.

ETA: as you questioned in your op

"but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work?"

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm forming my opinion literally on the things YOU have said.
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That’s utter rubbish. You used the words “good tension” and others I never used. You are a liar and disingenuous. How disgusting
 
paddi22 said:
but if a horse is excited then its


But you don't WANT excitement in dressage, you want zen and relaxation. Excitement means you have raised levels of adrenaline going through your body. This physical reaction totally interrupts the muscles and body working harmoniously. It causes the breathing to shorten and get shallow, which affects flow to the brain and affects your thinking

All the sports psychologists say that your body cannot tell the difference between fear and excitment, and if you get nerves before an xc course, to just tell your brain you are excited, and that will switch your thinking to a positive mindset. We went to a charlie unwin talk where he hooked up riders to heart and breathing monitors. When people get excited their breathing gets shallower and quicker, the heart rate increases, muscles get tenser and they don't think as clearly or move their muscles properly.

A horse can be happy and relaxed and enjoying a test and do well. An excited horse, however, has physical things going on in its body that are counter reactive to dressage principles, even on a base level of how their muscles are able to work.
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I’m well aware that being excited in dressage is not wanted. But for me on an ethical level I would prefer my horse was excited than unhappy and being kicked along.

That’s just my preference. It’s the way I have always been taught to ethically treat a horse. It shouldn’t be done by discomfort and force.
 
Bernster said:
We must be reading different posts then as I’ve NOT read anything like what you describe OP. People have generally explained why the kick a longs might get scored the same or slightly higher, but I havent read anything that suggests that the kicking you describe is widely viewed as acceptable in the sense of the end game. Everyone seems to acknowledge that it happens at certain stages but it’s not the desired outcome.

Although why I am launching myself into this car crash of a thread I’ll never know...but I can’t seem to stop myself (even if it does mean I’m also at risk of getting baited).
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Lol. It was described as “harmonious” earlier
 
milliepops said:
what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread ;)
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That's me, too. I'm a lazy relaxed rider and I could usually get a good tune out of a tense horse. Trouble is, I'm older and more wimpy these days, so I have a steadier neddy now. It's been quite a culture shock...
 
shortstuff99 said:
I feel you don't understand the concept of paraphrasing, you're now arguing with your own actual words!
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You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as “paraphrasing.”

You did it intentionally to win an argument.

You’ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member you’ve bullied off.
 
Melodra said:
You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as “paraphrasing.”

You did it intentionally to win an argument.

You’ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member you’ve bullied off.
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I have never bullied a member off here in my life, and I was using your own words that formed a picture of what you were on about. I have reported you as you're clearly just trolling now.
 
milliepops said:
what is the opposite of an electric bum called?

...no it's not a bad joke from a christmas cracker... I just thought perhaps we could work on answering it to distract ourselves from the rest of the thread ;)
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People did used to call me lead arse, but I'm not sure I like the sound of it :confused:. Whereas electric bum sounds cool.
 
Melodra said:
You should actually be ashamed. You intentionally misquoted and then try to pass off as “paraphrasing.”

You did it intentionally to win an argument.

You’ve won. Sitting here in tears. Another member you’ve bullied off.
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that is slightly over the top don't you think? its a debate about dressage. No-one is aiming to get anyone in tears and nobody particularly cares about strangers horses at the end of the day.
 
You've got what you wanted.

I was happy and proud of my horse, who improved massively in his test. He had lovely comments from the judge. I'm now in tears.

I queried the scoring of horses who were literally kicked around the ring and asked for thoughts on this and whether this was really the aim of dressage. I asked if (generally) this was really so much worse than an inexperienced horse showing some excitement at his second event.

The amount of misquoting, deliberately misinterpreting me, backtracking, personal attacks, comments that my horse needs totally retraining because I express a view that kicking a horse is unethical have just been shocking,

At the end of the day, I shouldn't let strangers on a forum get to me. I don't know them. The BD judge in this case (although unaff) clearly thought my horse had so much potential and in her words was showing "very promising work" and would settle with experience clearly meant she saw no fundamental or underlying issues and I will take a lot from that and his huge improvement between both tests and continue moving forwards.

Again, thanks a lot to those of you who offered useful and constructive advice in terms of settling him going forwards and who offered encouragement. It meant a lot and it is appreciated.

Those who are happy to see a horse kicked...I guess we would never agree. It has always been a no-no as far as I and every trainer I have come across is concerned and that isn't going to change. But I can't keep arguing when I am persistently misquoted, it's not an honest or fair way to debate and has me in tears. I know I'm not the first and unlikely to be the last, which is sad as the horse (and dressage) world is generally a decent place.
 
DabDab said:
I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.
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Yup, me too! Its going to be the long way with B Fuzzy who is v tense, upright and forwards going
 
OP, really I think you need to either walk away or take a fresh look at this whole thread imagining someone else started it, to get some perspective.

No one wanted anything, you started the thread and I can say hand on heart no one wanted to upset you because that's just not what HHO is about.
I think I can speak for everyone who answered the thread, that what most people want on here is to share views, support each other, find out alternative views, learn stuff, have an adult discussion about the whys and wherefores - that's what happens every day here. Other than trolls which are few and far between, thankfully, no one comes here with the deliberate intent to upset anyone.

And literally no one has said they want to see horses kicked. Talk about misquoting!
If you're happy with your horse, then great. If you didn't understand the judging then you needed to either ask the judge or seek judge training elsewhere. But I find it a bit weird that you will take the judges positive views towards your horses as gospel, but then apparently dismiss their scoring of the so called lazy horses? can't really have it both ways?

there's no need to be in tears, that's a huge overreaction to what could have been (and has at times) a really interesting discussion.
 
I just disagree that kicking is a worse issue than say 'sawing' at a horses mouth, or them being compressed and pulled into a contact that isn't correct for them. Both of those are worse sins in my eyes than kicking, as they cause serious long term muscular-skeletal issues.

You don't see people repeatedly hard kicking a forward horse around a ring. It tends to be the ploddy types, who don't seem to register it or seem stressed by it, they just look dull to it. It's bad training, but is it a welfare issue?. If the horse wants the kicking to cease they know they should power forward, but most just do the minimum. If you put those kicking riders on a forward tb type, their kicking would soon stop.

i think its way worse when you see people fiddling wityh hands. The pain levels registered in a horses sensitive mouth area would be way worse than kicking pain wise.
 
milliepops said:
OP, really I think you need to either walk away or take a fresh look at this whole thread imagining someone else started it, to get some perspective.

No one wanted anything, you started the thread and I can say hand on heart no one wanted to upset you because that's just not what HHO is about.
I think I can speak for everyone who answered the thread, that what most people want on here is to share views, support each other, find out alternative views, learn stuff, have an adult discussion about the whys and wherefores - that's what happens every day here. Other than trolls which are few and far between, thankfully, no one comes here with the deliberate intent to upset anyone.

And literally no one has said they want to see horses kicked. Talk about misquoting!
If you're happy with your horse, then great. If you didn't understand the judging then you needed to either ask the judge or seek judge training elsewhere. But I find it a bit weird that you will take the judges positive views towards your horses as gospel, but then apparently dismiss their scoring of the so called lazy horses? can't really have it both ways?

there's no need to be in tears, that's a huge overreaction to what could have been (and has at times) a really interesting discussion.
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I queried the scoring as I found it odd which is why I raised it as a debate....if you look back through my comments (and yours originally) there are some decent explanations as to why neither is correct but in the context of a test one could potentially score higher. We then descended into a horse being kicked along = soft, submissive and harmonious.

As for taking the positive comments only, I’ve said I agree with her feedback regarding tension and not just the good parts so not sure how you’ve got that impression.

In fact you are cherry picking...because time and time again you’ve ignored the fact this is an inexperienced horse and the judge saw no fundamental issues...only that what he was showing was promising and he would relax with experience.

Yes, I am upset. It’s easy to be a keyboard warrior but perhaps you should take a step back and consider the impact of you and your friends deliberately ganging up to misinterpret, attack an individual because you don’t agree with them.
 
paddi22 said:
I just disagree that kicking is a worse issue than say 'sawing' at a horses mouth, or them being compressed and pulled into a contact that isn't correct for them. Both of those are worse sins in my eyes than kicking, as they cause serious long term muscular-skeletal issues.

You don't see people repeatedly hard kicking a forward horse around a ring. It tends to be the ploddy types, who don't seem to register it or seem stressed by it, they just look dull to it. It's bad training, but is it a welfare issue?. If the horse wants the kicking to cease they know they should power forward, but most just do the minimum. If you put those kicking riders on a forward tb type, their kicking would soon stop.

i think its way worse when you see people fiddling wityh hands. The pain levels registered in a horses sensitive mouth area would be way worse than kicking pain wise.
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I agree, that is awful but that’s not what I was doing. He would back right off and canter on the spot if you tried to do that and he doesn’t need it anyway. Everything, hand and leg has to be soft with him.
 
Melodra said:
As for taking the positive comments only, I’ve said I agree with her feedback regarding tension and not just the good parts so not sure how you’ve got that impression.

In fact you are cherry picking...because time and time again you’ve ignored the fact this is an inexperienced horse and the judge saw no fundamental issues...only that what he was showing was promising and he would relax with experien.
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No, it is you who are cherry picking, how can the same judge be right about your horse and so wrong about the others?

You've had numerous explanations of why the judge would score them that way, but it was you that turned it into endless rants about kicking, everyone else said it was not ideal but that in the context of a scored dressage test that it would be ranked above a tense horse.
 
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