Tension in Dressage

blitznbobs said:
I agree most of those horses have amazing movement but the picture is ruined by tension ... if they could teach those horses to chill they would probably be unbeatable
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totally agree. I loved watching Delicato, I thought it was a beautifully elastic test but those glocks horses all have some extra star quality, if only...
 
Wow, goodness me! I am totally gobsmacked that anyone could get upset at anything that has been put on this thread, there's loads of good advice and explanation which relates exactly to the opening post. Which was basically why do lazy behind the leg horses score better at prelim than ones that show tension? Perhaps it would have been a better post if the OP had asked "how can I help my horse to be more relaxed at competitions?" Anyway, the late lovely Bisto could be a very tense horse, he'd lock his neck, tighten his back and his lovely long legs would whirl around him in a frenzy, knees up by his nose. One of the most effective ways of dealing with it was to give him a strong leg aid to get him moving forward instead of up and down, IME tense hot horses are often behind the leg just as much as lazy horses and both benefit from being sent forward. A strong leg aid doesn't look pretty, of course, but neither does a tense horse so in a test it's a good idea to do it in a corner where the judge won't notice it.
 
paddi22 said:
At the end of the day a tense/excited horse has a mental issue somewhere with the whole process and this is a worse sin that a horse who needs an ugly leg aid. If a horse has tension, either the horse finds the environment is stressful or overwhleming, the moves are difficult, the horse is picking up riders nerves etc. All of which are a very weak foundation to show harmony and are marked harshly to make riders overcome them before moving up.

Excitement doesn't not show happiness in a dressage horse, it shows a horse with some issue going on. I know a few genuinely happy dressage horses (i don't own any unfortunately:p) and they all are totally chill in the ring as they love going in front of an audience and showing off. they are 100% in their bodies and seem to absolutely relish using their athleticism and showing off.

prelim level is marked mainly on rhythm and relaxation. At the end of the day a tense horse is not displaying these two things, regardless of all the other positives it may have. if a horse is tense/excited , its breathing is shallow and its rhythm is stilted and off beat.
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Rather at odds at your previous comment. Excitement at an event is very natural for a horse not used to them on its second time out.

In fact I think your previous comments indicate you would expect in such an instance for the horse to settle. Changed your mind so now my horse has a mental issue?
 
Melodra said:
Rather at odds at your previous comment. Excitement at an event is very natural for a horse not used to them on its second time out.

In fact I think your previous comments indicate you would expect in such an instance for the horse to settle. Changed your mind so now my horse has a mental issue?
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im not even talking about your horse at this stage, its just a general debate. I have never seen your horse during a test, so theres no way for me to expand on it either way.

Im not at odds with any previous comment I made. Most horse do settle with some mileage on them, but some don't and always hold tension on some level. They mightn't be leaping or snorting, but they are holding tension through their back, and will get marked accordingly.

Its like looking at someone dancing on dancefloor at a nightclub. you can tell the people who are conscious of people watching them. they don't dance as fluidly or enjoyably as someone just up on the dancefloor giving it socks regardless.

Tension in a test is a massive red flag for me. A clumsy leg aid can be remidied, but a horse having an issue mentally with whats going on is always something I want to fix.
 
I think you are reading things into comments that literally aren't there, Melodra

Surely the very idea that the horse needs more experience of different competition atmospheres to learn how to relax shows that it's a mental issue rather than a physical one? I really don't think you need to take that as a slight at all - that is normal, many horses have to learn about how to relax in new places. That is a mental process. Hence a mental issue.
 
paddi22 said:
yeah totally agree. one of my little mares is starting her dressage career and shows tension. Later on i ended up writing for the judge who marked us afterwards and she advised that for lower unaffiliated levels I would be better off not even trying to ride the moves correctly on her (ie to miss markers if the horse needs more times between transition etc) and make it as easy and fun for her as possible. She said do anything needed to get the horse happy and relaxed, even if it looks awful and loses marks. She said she sees so many horses going up the levels, and if they start tense at prelim and don't solve that, then the tension compounds as they move up the levels.

I really took this on board as I had three years of tense comments on another horse. So for the next test i did i took her in and literally played around the arena, chatting to her, scratching her and not worrying about how we looked, and she actually got better marks than when i tried to 'ride' her correctly!
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This is what I meant about always riding for the NEXT test. Having a lovely time today, so it will be happier tomorrow. I regularly cut corners, cut a whole short side short of necessary because there is a scary banner /scary hut/ scary cafe or whatever, so the horse knows that he will be safe in the arena. I also think of "helping" the horse to balance for XXXXX so it does not become confrontational.

I am probably not a techincally good as most on this thread, but have taken several "problem" horses to be relaxed at Ele, mostly because I ride like a slack arse! I tend to thank then for what they have done, and make it easy as I can.

Melodra said:
He tightens his frame, ridden and and free in the paddock when excited. The head is up but arched but he will also lengthen his stride (that is his natural way of moving) The judge’s comments on a couple of the movements where marked down as tense were needs to be ridden forward into the contact, so..... I am only ever soft with my hands and legs with him, there is no force involved. If you are kicking a horse you are making it uncomfortable for him and so using force as opposed to encouraging him, which I feel, yes, is unethical.
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As a (reluctant) judge I can share with you that I have a set of stock phrases that I use, and I do not have time to write an essay between horses. Needing to be ridden forward to a contact would indicate that the horse was not drawing the contact forward, and indicating to ride forward more into the contact wold indicate the horse is behind the contact. The horse needs to softly seek the contact, and will then lose the false arched neck.

I do have to query where on earth this is, as I have never been to a competition yet with so many people cruelly kicking their horses round an arena. Eve so, I will be (tra la) the first person on this thread to say that YES I have sometimes given a good pony club kick if my horse has ignored my leg!!!! I do this in the collecting ring so he is on my aids before going into the arena. IMO a good pony club kick is kinder than nagging. Many people also end up nagging with their hands (more of an issue IMO as the mouth is very sensitive) because they are seeking the contact backwards rathee then the horse seeking it forwards.

Melodra said:
Can see that, but then again I think we have discussed that this was his second event, the horse is relaxed at home and was much improved second time out. The judge certainly didn’t think he needed to be retrained, just that he would relax in time with experience.

Again her comment was that he was displaying very promising work so obviously didn’t think there were huge underlying and fundamental issues, nor did the judge in his first test who more or less said the same.
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I refer to my comment above, it is the sort of comment I would make as I am always encouraging. I will say what a wonderful horse it is, give what the main issue is (in your judge's case it seems to be that the horse is tense and about the contact - which I went into above). I then say how wonderful the horse will be when this issue is sorted. The dressage sheet is not a dressage lesson, it is an indication of the main issues as there is simply not time to do more, and to be encouraging.


Melodra said:
Thanks so much for this. Have found so far using the rise really helps with him, he prances about on the spot with too much hand, but I think I probably need to be more proactive about it during a test, when my own nerves probably get in the way as well. She is beautiful.
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See, if I use "too much hand" my horse will soften and stop dead. If I continued to use hand the horse would reverse, head low, until I stopped. Prancing around on the spot from use of the hand alone means there is indeed, IMO, a fundamental schooling issue.

I had a complaint once from a junior Trailblazer section. There was one very fine, prancy pony there, all dolled up, fancy tack, full clip... and tense. The pony was not using his body, was not seeking and taking the contact. The face was behind the vertical (harder to fix than one that is too far in-front IME), the outline was false and the pony just looked miserable. I do not necessarily agree that a tense horse is a happy horse. That pony was the smartest but did not win.

The winner? A very surprised young lady, on a shaggy, unclipped pony. The pony was happy and relaxed. The pony did what was asked, where he was asked to do it. The saddle was a GP, the numnah a dark fluffy one, the girl's boots were made of rubber. But it was a pleasing picture, the pony was seeking the contact and as he was not bracing at all against the bit the outline was soft and round. Although the picture was indeed somewhat downhill and lacking in impulsion, it was all there ready to go. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I have a new baby horse. She has done some dressage before, but I have so far only done a couple of Intro tests, because the first one I took her to she dropped me. I don't mean on the floor, I mean she went behind the leg and hand. I would say that it is a defensive action, and I did not like it was my horses need to look to me for guidance, not be defensive. She got over 70% actually, but I was very disappointed as she had not stayed as she would at home. We went and did some homework, and the second test she scored the same, but I was ecstatic as the extra work had paid off and she had stayed true to the aids. We are having a break, but for me we won't move beyond Intro and Prelim until I know I can keep her on the aids, which is where she will be if she is confident.

I have tried a few times to explain why I believe being tense and set in the neck is such a deserved mark blocker. A laid back horse would score higher with me, I won't explain more as I am not sure it is being helpful at all. I am surprised that all this cruelty goes on in your area, as if I were judging and anyone was being cruel with kicks or spurs or whips then I would stop the test. They certainly would not be winning.

As for the forum, I am not in any cliques. I think I have twice smarted when someone disagreed with me on the forum, I closed the tab and did not look back at it. I don't think there has been any bullying, as for Cortez, I have no idea who she is in real life, but I have only ever seen considered posts on here from her sharing what is obviously great experience. Same with Milliepops, and Paddi. I have got frustrated myself when someone asks a question, and when a reasonable answer is given it is rubbished.
 
milliepops said:
I think you are reading things into comments that literally aren't there, Melodra

Surely the very idea that the horse needs more experience of different competition atmospheres to learn how to relax shows that it's a mental issue rather than a physical one? I really don't think you need to take that as a slight at all - that is normal, many horses have to learn about how to relax in new places. That is a mental process. Hence a mental issue.[/QUOTE

Given that’s what i’ve been saying all along, why are you even arguing? It’s hardly a long term serious issue, is it? It’s perfectly normal. And the huge improvement between tests would suggest that it’s unlikely to be a long term serious issue.
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Red-Nose said:
This is what I meant about always riding for the NEXT test. Having a lovely time today, so it will be happier tomorrow. I regularly cut corners, cut a whole short side short of necessary because there is a scary banner /scary hut/ scary cafe or whatever, so the horse knows that he will be safe in the arena. I also think of "helping" the horse to balance for XXXXX so it does not become confrontational.

I am probably not a techincally good as most on this thread, but have taken several "problem" horses to be relaxed at Ele, mostly because I ride like a slack arse! I tend to thank then for what they have done, and make it easy as I can.



As a (reluctant) judge I can share with you that I have a set of stock phrases that I use, and I do not have time to write an essay between horses. Needing to be ridden forward to a contact would indicate that the horse was not drawing the contact forward, and indicating to ride forward more into the contact wold indicate the horse is behind the contact. The horse needs to softly seek the contact, and will then lose the false arched neck.

I do have to query where on earth this is, as I have never been to a competition yet with so many people cruelly kicking their horses round an arena. Eve so, I will be (tra la) the first person on this thread to say that YES I have sometimes given a good pony club kick if my horse has ignored my leg!!!! I do this in the collecting ring so he is on my aids before going into the arena. IMO a good pony club kick is kinder than nagging. Many people also end up nagging with their hands (more of an issue IMO as the mouth is very sensitive) because they are seeking the contact backwards rathee then the horse seeking it forwards.



I refer to my comment above, it is the sort of comment I would make as I am always encouraging. I will say what a wonderful horse it is, give what the main issue is (in your judge's case it seems to be that the horse is tense and about the contact - which I went into above). I then say how wonderful the horse will be when this issue is sorted. The dressage sheet is not a dressage lesson, it is an indication of the main issues as there is simply not time to do more, and to be encouraging.




See, if I use "too much hand" my horse will soften and stop dead. If I continued to use hand the horse would reverse, head low, until I stopped. Prancing around on the spot from use of the hand alone means there is indeed, IMO, a fundamental schooling issue.

I had a complaint once from a junior Trailblazer section. There was one very fine, prancy pony there, all dolled up, fancy tack, full clip... and tense. The pony was not using his body, was not seeking and taking the contact. The face was behind the vertical (harder to fix than one that is too far in-front IME), the outline was false and the pony just looked miserable. I do not necessarily agree that a tense horse is a happy horse. That pony was the smartest but did not win.

The winner? A very surprised young lady, on a shaggy, unclipped pony. The pony was happy and relaxed. The pony did what was asked, where he was asked to do it. The saddle was a GP, the numnah a dark fluffy one, the girl's boots were made of rubber. But it was a pleasing picture, the pony was seeking the contact and as he was not bracing at all against the bit the outline was soft and round. Although the picture was indeed somewhat downhill and lacking in impulsion, it was all there ready to go. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I have a new baby horse. She has done some dressage before, but I have so far only done a couple of Intro tests, because the first one I took her to she dropped me. I don't mean on the floor, I mean she went behind the leg and hand. I would say that it is a defensive action, and I did not like it was my horses need to look to me for guidance, not be defensive. She got over 70% actually, but I was very disappointed as she had not stayed as she would at home. We went and did some homework, and the second test she scored the same, but I was ecstatic as the extra work had paid off and she had stayed true to the aids. We are having a break, but for me we won't move beyond Intro and Prelim until I know I can keep her on the aids, which is where she will be if she is confident.

I have tried a few times to explain why I believe being tense and set in the neck is such a deserved mark blocker. A laid back horse would score higher with me, I won't explain more as I am not sure it is being helpful at all. I am surprised that all this cruelty goes on in your area, as if I were judging and anyone was being cruel with kicks or spurs or whips then I would stop the test. They certainly would not be winning.

As for the forum, I am not in any cliques. I think I have twice smarted when someone disagreed with me on the forum, I closed the tab and did not look back at it. I don't think there has been any bullying, as for Cortez, I have no idea who she is in real life, but I have only ever seen considered posts on here from her sharing what is obviously great experience. Same with Milliepops, and Paddi. I have got frustrated myself when someone asks a question, and when a reasonable answer is given it is rubbished.
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Ok. I’ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.
 
thats really interesting about the comments red nose. for years i got 'needs to be ridden forward more in to a contact' 'needs more suppleness through back' or the awful 'tense'!

its only when we cracked the tension (after a three year learning curve, that we started getting the 'what a happy horse' comments.
 
an excellent and comprehensive post Red :)

I'm not arguing :) who needs to argue? I though we were all just discussing your question.

What is *normal* is not the same as what is *correct* in competitive dressage though.
The judge can't look at your horse and give the score for the test he will do in 2 years time when he has relaxed. She can only score what you present on the day, so the fact that there is all this good stuff to potentially show in the future is completely irrelevant on the day for everyone except you. It's not relevant to the judge, nor to the other competitors, nor to this discussion.
 
Melodra said:
Ok. I’ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.
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realistically at prelim levle the judge is always going to add in a lovely comment somewhere, because they want to encourage the rider and build up positivity for the pair. when you write for a prelim judge you tend to spend most of the day writing 'lovely horse, will be super once he does x, y or z'
 
paddi22 said:
its only when we cracked the tension (after a three year learning curve, that we started getting the 'what a happy horse' comments.
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yup it's the "great partnership" and "willing horse" comments in the collectives that make my heart sing when I pick up my sheets, it means so much when you've been through a tough journey :)
 
The outcome from this forum (excluding those who have been supportive and offered constructive advice.

- Your horse has a serious issue and needs retraining
- Kicking is acceptable.
- The judge did not mean the positives on your test sheet.

I think I've had enough. I took an inexperienced excitable horse on his second time out. He showed a massive improvement, was marked down for tension on some of movements, but still received a respectable score and the judge clearly thought he had potential. I was happy and delighted with this.

I'm absolutely gutted. I would appreciate you all just leaving me alone now. You've now finally succeeded in absolutely ruining it for me.
 
Melodra said:
Ok. I’ll ignore the positives from the judge. She was just saying it.
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No, I would not ignore it, I am sure you horse is everything the judge said your horse is. I won't say a horse is wonderful if it is not (I usually an more specific than "wonderful!!! - it could be very active, or athletic, or willing, or...whatever). I was merely indicating that you are assuming too much to say that the judge was indicating that there were no fundamental issues, which seemed to be your conclusion. They do not have time other than to say what they like, say what needs improvement and then say something encouraging for the future.

The judge would not have time to indicate all issues, and give you a program of work to rectify it. I believe I did indicate that, but you have chosen to take what I said out of context. I do not understand why you feel negatively to people trying to help.
 
Red-Nose said:
No, I would not ignore it, I am sure you horse is everything the judge said your horse is. I won't say a horse is wonderful if it is not (I usually an more specific than "wonderful!!! - it could be very active, or athletic, or willing, or...whatever). I was merely indicating that you are assuming too much to say that the judge was indicating that there were no fundamental issues, which seemed to be your conclusion. They do not have time other than to say what they like, say what needs improvement and then say something encouraging for the future.

The judge would not have time to indicate all issues, and give you a program of work to rectify it. I believe I did indicate that, but you have chosen to take what I said out of context. I do not understand why you feel negatively to people trying to help.
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I'm finished with this. Sorry.
 
Melodra said:
The outcome from this forum (excluding those who have been supportive and offered constructive advice.

- Your horse has a serious issue and needs retraining
- Kicking is acceptable.
- The judge did not mean the positives on your test sheet.

I think I've had enough. I took an inexperienced excitable horse on his second time out. He showed a massive improvement, was marked down for tension on some of movements, but still received a respectable score and the judge clearly thought he had potential. I was happy and delighted with this.

I'm absolutely gutted. I would appreciate you all just leaving me alone now. You've now finally succeeded in absolutely ruining it for me.
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No, sorry, not letting that go.

1. tension is a serious issue, in that you can't just ignore it, you have to address it as your horse's rider and trainer, that's your job. It's not a disaster, it's not going to mean you won't have a great future, it's just that you must take the issue seriously in order to help the horse to progress.

2. there are multiple reasons why riders might use a noticeable leg aid, whether that be nerves, inattentive or inadequately trained horses and we have ALL agreed that the ideal is to teach the horse and rider to be able to use a light aid. But it's often a work in progress, same as your tension issue.

3. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless.

you can choose how you respond to this, none of us can control that, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record you are the one who is whipping up all the hyperbole here and making yourself upset.
 
milliepops said:
No, sorry, not letting that go.

1. tension is a serious issue, in that you can't just ignore it, you have to address it as your horse's rider and trainer, that's your job. It's not a disaster, it's not going to mean you won't have a great future, it's just that you must take the issue seriously in order to help the horse to progress.

2. there are multiple reasons why riders might use a noticeable leg aid, whether that be nerves, inattentive or inadequately trained horses and we have ALL agreed that the ideal is to teach the horse and rider to be able to use a light aid. But it's often a work in progress, same as your tension issue.

3. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless.

you can choose how you respond to this, none of us can control that, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record you are the one who is whipping up all the hyperbole here and making yourself upset.
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It’s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were “hopeless” and the comments were kind.

I’m gutted. In tears. If you can’t see you should back off now, then I have no words.
 
milliepops said:
hyperbole
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Oooh, I love that word. Not one I would ever use, I would not be able to spell it. When I see it I have to play at pronouncing it different ways. Nice word! TBF when I do dressage writing I have to write the word "Rhythm" on the top of the clipboard as that one is hard enough. :p
 
M - turn off your phone/tablet/computer and go and do something nice. I don't get why you are continuing to read and post on the thread if it's upsetting you that much?

I can only understand it by imagining that continuing is a form of self-flagellation or possibly a game/trolling.
 
Melodra said:
It’s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were “hopeless” and the comments were kind.

I’m gutted. In tears. If you can’t see you should back off now, then I have no words.
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No one is being rude to you. They are giving you answers to your original question. Please log off HHO
 
Melodra said:
It’s his second test, showing a huge improvement. And now we were “hopeless” and the comments were kind.

I’m gutted. In tears. If you can’t see you should back off now, then I have no words.
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since you appear to have so much insider knowledge of HHO for a new poster, you will be well aware that threads tend to run and run even long after the OP has flounced from it. I'm sorry you feel upset. No one has tried to upset you.

It seems that you have taken the challenges to your assertion that apparently "lazy horses" should score poor marks in competition to mean that people think your inexperienced horse is rubbish, none of that is true - tbh the 2 issues should be taken in isolation as they are only loosely related and more complicated than simply appearing to be opposites. I don't think horses are on a spectrum from tense to lazy, I don't think those 2 are directly linked to each other, as oldie said you can have a tense horse that is behind your leg as much as a lazy horse that bogs off with you.
 
milliepops said:
since you appear to have so much insider knowledge of HHO for a new poster, you will be well aware that threads tend to run and run even long after the OP has flounced from it. I'm sorry you feel upset. No one has tried to upset you.

It seems that you have taken the challenges to your assertion that apparently "lazy horses" should score poor marks in competition to mean that people think your inexperienced horse is rubbish, none of that is true - tbh the 2 issues should be taken in isolation as they are only loosely related and more complicated than simply appearing to be opposites. I don't think horses are on a spectrum from tense to lazy, I don't think those 2 are directly linked to each other, as oldie said you can have a tense horse that is behind your leg as much as a lazy horse that bogs off with you.
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Again. Misquoting. I never at any stage suggested a spectrum of tense vs lazy, although you can argued that for excitable and forward vs lazy. And I agree with your latter point which was kind of part of my point but oh well.

I absolutely give up and you still can’t stop can you? You’ve actually no idea of how you can upset them by trashing their horse, their test sheet.

Even if you thought that, what a horrible thing to say. The judge didn’t mean the positive things she said.
 
eh??? OP I think you must be having a funny turn or something.

you were the one who started the post comparing tense with lazy horses.

Who has rubbished your horse or your test sheet?! no one!
 
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