Tension in Dressage

i have read every post on here and have got the impression that kicking is NOT desirable,but happens for various reasons/ tension is NOT desirable but happens for various reasons..why can you not see that? . people have given their honest opinions to answer the original question and i think this has been repeated time and time again.... i have tried to give good advice as i have many years of experience dealing with both types of horse ... i will not flounce off but have now got fed up and am going out with my dogs !!!!!!!

oh was going out, but red must agree with you i cant spell the R word either, it drives me mad!!!! now im going out before it is too dark......
 
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milliepops said:
eh??? OP I think you must be having a funny turn or something.

you were the one who started the post comparing tense with lazy horses.

Who has rubbished your horse or your test sheet?! no one!
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No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.
 
Melodra said:
No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.
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Judges aren’t lying when they say those things. But like others have said, they say positive things to encourage you.
 
Melodra said:
No. I compared an excitable and resultingly somewhat tense but obedient novice on its second time out to a lazy horse that was unreponsive to the aids,' leaning on the rider and being kicked around the arena.

Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.

What's even worse is that I think you assume you are talking to a novice rider. You've made a lot of assumptions. I'm not, I'm also not at all new to dressage and although you have me in tears I'm still confident in what my trainer and I are achieving in this horse who is not easy and we'll continue to move forwards. A novice rider would be absolutely destroyed by what you've said.
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Don't tell me what I have assumed and what I haven't, again, you objected strongly to people putting words in your mouth earlier so do the rest of us the same favour and don't do it to other people :) it's not conducive to a productive discussion.

No one has said the judge didn't mean their positive comments. if they didn't mean them they didn't have written them. But you need to be able to interpret them and Red gave a pretty good explanation of what the often-used phrases mean.

I don't care if you're an unaff prelim rider or riding at GP, tbh by asking the question you did, you have kind of given off the vibes of someone without a deep understanding or knowledge of competitive dressage, and I would say that because most people I know who are really into their sport have done quite a bit of reading around the subject or attended training to develop their understanding of the rules, aims and scoring mechanisms. if you are a highly experienced competition rider at the higher levels then I would say it would help you if you took a few days off competing to attend some of those training days because it takes away some of the mysteries like the question you asked at the beginning.
 
milliepops said:
Don't tell me what I have assumed and what I haven't, again, you objected strongly to people putting words in your mouth earlier so do the rest of us the same favour and don't do it to other people :) it's not conducive to a productive discussion.

No one has said the judge didn't mean their positive comments. if they didn't mean them they didn't have written them. But you need to be able to interpret them and Red gave a pretty good explanation of what the often-used phrases mean.

I don't care if you're an unaff prelim rider or riding at GP, tbh by asking the question you did, you have kind of given off the vibes of someone without a deep understanding or knowledge of competitive dressage, and I would say that because most people I know who are really into their sport have done quite a bit of reading around the subject or attended training to develop their understanding of the rules, aims and scoring mechanisms. if you are a highly experienced competition rider at the higher levels then I would say it would help you if you took a few days off competing to attend some of those training days because it takes away some of the mysteries like the question you asked at the beginning.
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This is exactly what I meant. You just can't help yourself.
We haven't discussed the rules of dressage at all in the post.
We discussed excitable vs lazy; and tbh the truth is that as some have stated on this thread, it's not a black and white issue, much depends on the judge, the horse and what happens on the day.
I posted to generate some debate which is why I asked for "thoughts." I was interested in different viewpoints and expressed my own which is apparently not allowed.

If we are getting personal, I believe you are not as knowledgeable as the image you like to purport. Kicking is a no-no - even beginners are taught not to kick, and denials aside, you advocated it. Further, if you thought I was a novice, why on earth would you seek to discourage a novice rider by telling them a judge will only make positive comments to stop you feeling "hopeless." Bloody awful.

Nothwithstanding all that, if I knew I was upsetting you to point of tears with my comments, I would back off. I clearly love and want the best for my horse, who is clearly making progress and is it really necessary to keep on sticking the boot in because you disagree with me?
 
Twice I have replied as have others about kick along horses and that there may be a reason behind it but you have not commented or replied back but picked up on what others have said about how tension is viewed by a judge.

Some excellent answers really interesting I agree that a tense horse can often be behind the led and also be held together by the rider. I am not saying you do this.

I will also add my trainer will often shout at me to ‘give it a boot’ when he is being a knob to send it forward to gets his attention back on me or when he just blantently (sp) ignores me or my nice gentle aid. He riders to GP.

I did see a judge once come out the box and speak to a lady for over abuse of aids the girl left the arena in tears and so she should it was horrid to watch.

You don’t say where the event was and also if you thought that the kicking was excessive you should of spoken to the organisers at the time. Was this one person or many?

Not one person on here has said that excessive kicking is acceptable at all.

I always get lovely partnerships and nice willing horse.

I have seen judges with cards with the stock phases on that they use to help them out did doesn’t mean they don’t mean it.

Last comment the judge would have no idea it was your second event. So they would only mark what they saw and that was tension.
 
Melodra said:
Again, you know what? However strongly your views are held, to tell someone that a judge probably did not mean their positive comments is plain spiteful and nasty. It's designed to hurt someone's feelings.
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noone is saying a judge is lying.

I actually rooted out four old tests on the tense horse, just out of curiosity. the difference in the phrasing from before and after we cracked the tension is really interesting

Before:
Horse has got nice paces, lovely walk. But quite tense, needs to relax and go more softly into the contact

Nice horse with lots of potential, a bit tense at times

After:
I love this horse! A happy athlete and he is so willing. Well done. Steps a little hurried at times today

What a lovely attitude this horse shows, with super paces. Really positive and forward thinking, Just make sure he doesn't get a little downhill in frame

Even those before comments are positive, all i did was target relaxation in my training, and pinpoint what he was struggling with and what I was doing that was making it worse when I was riding tests. The difference in the comments shows the mental breakthrough the horse made in regards to his whole dressage experience.

I think to really be a good competition rider you need to put your own ego and feelings aside and be clinical in analysing the feedback you are getting from your rounds and what can be improved.
 
I am really happy that you re happy with your horse. I have never seen your horse so can't comment on your actual horse, but thought we were having a discussion on tension V laziness.

Often I see threads where I disagree with what people are doing or thinking but people are happy and are clear that they are putting up a happy post. I therefore don't pour cold water on it, and just make a happy post back. If I really disagree with something and think it is causing serious harm/danger then I may say something, but otherwise I either leave a happy comment or don't comment at all.

Had you come on and said "I am so happy with my horse, we had a terrible time last time with crabbing and cantering off down the centre line, but this time he was much better and was so obedient," then you would have got very different replies. I think we would all have been very happy for you.

You asked a question and I, and others have done our best to explain our points of view. I don't really understand how you come to see that as you being rubbished, especially as you kept asking for further explanation. I do think that your accusations of bullying and telling people that they have been under discussion in private messages is off kilter.

Personally I am really happy that you are happy with your horse, and confident in your training program. I do think that many good comments have been made that are worthy of further thought.
 
paddi22 said:
noone is saying a judge is lying.

I actually rooted out four old tests on the tense horse, just out of curiosity. the difference in the phrasing from before and after we cracked the tension is really interesting

Before:
Horse has got nice paces, lovely walk. But quite tense, needs to relax and go more softly into the contact

Nice horse with lots of potential, a bit tense at times

After:
I love this horse! A happy athlete and he is so willing. Well done. Steps a little hurried at times today

What a lovely attitude this horse shows, with super paces. Really positive and forward thinking, Just make sure he doesn't get a little downhill in frame

Even those before comments are positive, all i did was target relaxation in my training, and pinpoint what he was struggling with and what I was doing that was making it worse when I was riding tests. The difference in the comments shows the mental breakthrough the horse made in regards to his whole dressage experience.

I think to really be a good competition rider you need to put your own ego and feelings aside and be clinical in analysing the feedback you are getting from your rounds and what can be improved.
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There is absolutely nothing I disagree with there.
 
Melodra said:
This is exactly what I meant. You just can't help yourself.
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i'm not sure what you mean tbh, the forum is here for us all to use, people will respond to posts on here, that's kind of the point :rolleyes:

We haven't discussed the rules of dressage at all in the post.
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I would say we definitely have done, many people including me have discussed the structure of score sheets, the judging criteria and the collective marks, if those don't constitute rules then I'm not sure what you think they are there for?

I was interested in different viewpoints and expressed my own which is apparently not allowed.
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the only person that has told people to stop posting is you, no one has said you may not hold your own views, it just happens that many of us don't share them for various reasons already explained in detail upthread


Kicking is a no-no - even beginners are taught not to kick, and denials aside, you advocated it. Further, if you thought I was a novice, why on earth would you seek to discourage a novice rider by telling them a judge will only make positive comments to stop you feeling "hopeless." Bloody awful.

Nothwithstanding all that, if I knew I was upsetting you to point of tears with my comments, I would back off. I clearly love and want the best for my horse, who is clearly making progress and is it really necessary to keep on sticking the boot in because you disagree with me?
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this is all a fascinating and apparently deliberate goading. .. :) anyway, I've already asked you to fish out the thread where I advocated kicking, thus far you haven't bothered so I am going to assume you can't find any such post.

Likewise I never said judges only make positive comments to stop riders feeling hopeless, actually tickled that you have managed to twist it round to that, but virtually any judge will tell you they try to couch their comments in a positive tone, so you had <ventures into the dangerous territory of paraphrasing> lovely horse who will do well when he stops being tense, i.e. a positive phrase... the alternative way of saying that is that he was too tense to do good work today i.e. a negative phrase which would make a novice feel disheartened. See what they did there?

Literally no one is sticking any boots anywhere :eek:
 
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PS - One of my best comments in affiliated dressage was "Rider has good glue!"

It was a goddam awful test, horse was far too fresh, it was indoors and not much space round the outside, horse touched a board before we even entered at A and exploded, then the sun came out and made light spots, causing an unauthorised rein back at a halt at C, then he exploded and did a diagonal in 3 bucks instead of a simple change...

2nd test of the day we got 5 points though, after a lot of extra warmup time (and someone came out to the car park and tried to buy him, if they had asked an hour earlier I dare say I would have accepted!!!).

I would not take it personally OP, it is all a learning curve, good days and bad days. Horses are great levellers. They are to be enjoyed. Celebrate your improvements and successes.
 
Red-Nose said:
I am really happy that you re happy with your horse. I have never seen your horse so can't comment on your actual horse, but thought we were having a discussion on tension V laziness.

Often I see threads where I disagree with what people are doing or thinking but people are happy and are clear that they are putting up a happy post. I therefore don't pour cold water on it, and just make a happy post back. If I really disagree with something and think it is causing serious harm/danger then I may say something, but otherwise I either leave a happy comment or don't comment at all.

Had you come on and said "I am so happy with my horse, we had a terrible time last time with crabbing and cantering off down the centre line, but this time he was much better and was so obedient," then you would have got very different replies. I think we would all have been very happy for you.

You asked a question and I, and others have done our best to explain our points of view. I don't really understand how you come to see that as you being rubbished, especially as you kept asking for further explanation. I do think that your accusations of bullying and telling people that they have been under discussion in private messages is off kilter.

Personally I am really happy that you are happy with your horse, and confident in your training program. I do think that many good comments have been made that are worthy of further thought.
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Finding it interesting that an apparently BD listed judge would support and indeed make similar comments in which a rider is told that the judge does not mean the positive comments on the sheet and in fact they are there so that the rider does not "feel hopeless."

As for discussion under PM, I was messaged and informed that Ester, Cortez and a few others have been known to engage in bullying.

I agree there have been some useful comments. Again I have personally thanked those people for them.
 
Melodra said:
Millypops "positive comments to stop the rider feeling hopeless"
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play fair :rolleyes: here's the exact quote. I dug THIS one out to save you the bother.
milliepops said:
. the judge did give you positive comments but when you have judged or written for judges or just read a lot of your own test sheets, critically, you can see that they have stock phrases which translate to a gentle nudge about areas that need to be improved, generally written in a positive way so as not to make riders feel hopeless.
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where does that even suggest that the comments are insincere?
 
DabDab said:
Or would ever be considered to be bullying anyone. She's literally one of the loveliest posters.
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Having met MP in person I can vouch that actually she is rubbish, has no idea about dressage and is really rude :p......








(joking obviously, though I think she should share the magic dust I'd love to get my bonkers cart horse to the level she's achieved :cool:. This thread has also served as fascinating reading whilst I wait the minutes away until I'm finished for Christmas)
 
yup thought we weren't supposed to paraphrase.

I do get right confused what people actually mean when they apparently reply to themselves.

AH you forgot how much she bullies you.

Ps I do think your black bird is an excellent lesson in tension.
 
Oh, enough.

Wasted enough time on this. Enjoy your little coven.

Thanks (once again) to those who genuinely debated/offered some useful tips for my boy.
 
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