Tension in Dressage

Melodra said:
" It's the awful pack mentality of a group that spends all its time on an internet forum...I do wonder when you saw your horses this evening. I feel much better this evening and having received further messages I realise that I should not let a group of people on the internet, clearly with issues of their own given the amount of time they spend here, upset me or ruin my happiness in my much improved and beautiful gelding.
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Is that not slightly ridiculous and over the top? Pure ridiculous to say people are neglecting their horses cause they comment on a debate.I popped on to comment while mucking out three stables, trudging across 14 acres to feed a herd of horses and minding two on box rest, thanks very much.

I totally agree that you shouldn't let a harmless internet debate affect you so much. It would be no harm to step back a it as I don't think anyone meant to cause the offence you took, I know I wish you all the best with your horse and was only debating the points you raised (which i assumed was the point of the original post)
 
paddi22 said:
Is that not slightly ridiculous and over the top? Pure ridiculous to say people are neglecting their horses cause they comment on a debate.I popped on to comment while mucking out three stables, trudging across 14 acres to feed a herd of horses and minding two on box rest, thanks very much.

I totally agree that you shouldn't let a harmless internet debate affect you so much. It would be no harm to step back a it as I don't think anyone meant to caise the offence you took, I know I wish you all the best with your horse and was only debating the points you raised (which i assumed was the point of the original post)[/QUOT

Could you please point out where I accused anyone of neglecting their horse? Merely surprised that all these horse owners manage to spend so much time online?
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Right. So excessive tension and excessive dullnezzzzz (possibly resulting from tension in a different type of horse) are pretty much equally bad... that seems fair. On the day of a dressage competition when being judged by the rules a horse with excessive "excited" tension can score lower than a more ploddy, but possibly more rhythmic and accurate horse. Since both tests were not seen by any if us not even the original poster as she was riding one of them all we really have is conjecture as to why those two specific tests scored as they did on the day. But we can't suggest reasons because it is construed as attacking the original poster and her horse and bullying.

Talking in generalities leads to everyone being accused of thinking that it's top form to kick your horse along. And then ends up being twisted round to being about the original poster again.

So really a sensible discussion is looking pretty impossible although valiant and informative efforts have been made.

Apparently there's a tonne of PMs flying about as well.

It is possible to train a horse to be relaxed AND expressive. So to relax a tense horse but maintain the sparkle or pep up a more ploddy one but keep the nice rhythm and relaxed attitude.

Do we even know what margin the ploddy kick along beat the original poster and her horse by? It might have been half a percent! Even if it was 5 percent then that's only a half mark each movement isn't it? And, as many many posters more knowledgeable than I have tried to say, rhythm really counts.

Perhaps dressage judging *should* penalise a rider kicking more. But perhaps right now it doesn't? It does seem more concerned overall with the horse than the rider and it seems a rhythmic, accurately ridden test gets you further than whatever faults the judge saw that resulted from the tension. Unless you see the other person's test sheet as well you really have no insight.

My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really. This thread is just weird. It reads, from a pretty neutral person's perspective, as severe trolling. It might not be, but thats how it reads.
 

I know i shouldn't but...you say "i do wonder when you saw your horses this evening' which would insinuate people were spending time online instead of with their horses. I was just pointing out its possible to do both. To be honest I am very wary of posting in reply to you as I genuinely don't want to upset you as you seem very reactive to take offence to what people post. I genuinely wish you all the best competing with your horse
 
PapaverFollis said:
Right. So excessive tension and excessive dullnezzzzz (possibly resulting from tension in a different type of horse) are pretty much equally bad... that seems fair. On the day of a dressage competition when being judged by the rules a horse with excessive "excited" tension can score lower than a more ploddy, but possibly more rhythmic and accurate horse. Since both tests were not seen by any if us not even the original poster as she was riding one of them all we really have is conjecture as to why those two specific tests scored as they did on the day. But we can't suggest reasons because it is construed as attacking the original poster and her horse and bullying.

Talking in generalities leads to everyone being accused of thinking that it's top form to kick your horse along. And then ends up being twisted round to being about the original poster again.

So really a sensible discussion is looking pretty impossible although valiant and informative efforts have been made.

Apparently there's a tonne of PMs flying about as well.

It is possible to train a horse to be relaxed AND expressive. So to relax a tense horse but maintain the sparkle or pep up a more ploddy one but keep the nice rhythm and relaxed attitude.

Do we even know what margin the ploddy kick along beat the original poster and her horse by? It might have been half a percent! Even if it was 5 percent then that's only a half mark each movement isn't it? And, as many many posters more knowledgeable than I have tried to say, rhythm really counts.

Perhaps dressage judging *should* penalise a rider kicking more. But perhaps right now it doesn't? It does seem more concerned overall with the horse than the rider and it seems a rhythmic, accurately ridden test gets you further than whatever faults the judge saw that resulted from the tension. Unless you see the other person's test sheet as well you really have no insight.

My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.

I don't know what I'm trying to say really. This thread is just weird. It reads, from a pretty neutral person's perspective, as severe trolling. It might not be, but thats how it reads.
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I have not at any stage accused people of bullying for suggesting reasons for the horse being marked down. I simply expressed a viewpoint that while I understood the issues tension can cause, nontheless a horse being kicked along is not submissive, soft or harmonious as some had suggested. And that is when this degenerated into a personal attack.

I wouldn't have asked for different viewpoints if I wasn't interested in them. But it was my viewpoint that was shut down by the pack. I was told that I should listen to the "more experienced" viewpoints of those who stated that a kicked horse was "better" than an excited novice showing tension. I was told it wasn't my place to discuss the scoring because I had no impact on the outcome? I was told my inexperienced horse on its second time out had serious "issues" and would need entirely retraining and shouldn't be competing because that excitement at being in a new place surrounded by other horses and his natural exuberance manifested in tension. Now that is ridiculous. The post hinged on kicking. One member stated that she kicked her horse through Prelim and considered it acceptable because she trained the horse to be more responsive. I asked if she trained it by kicking - never responded. I was told that the judge probably didn't mean the positive things she said about my horse, and that these were made so that I should not feel "hopeless." Why I should feel at all hopeless when his score was in any case respectable and he showed a huge improvement.

You are right. The score really doesn't matter. It was unaff Prelim. He was there for experience. What mattered was that as someone said above, that I, knowing my horse better than anyone was happy with how he performed. And I was delighted. The people on this forum did not see it and have no real insight...and when I tried to explain to counter incorrect assumptions that my horse was disobedient or stressed, I was accused of not listening, again to "more experienced people." Even your own post is not black and white and far more balanced than those of the members who have attacked me for "not listening to them" or more likely not agreeing with them.

I simply thought it was an interesting debate because it was this experience that got me thinking about it...I mistakenly assumed that meant it would be fine to express my own opinion. Only if in agreement with the regulars apparently.
 
Good lord.
If one can cook up that much misinterpreted, misquoted, twisted fake news twaddle from stuff written on the internet, then daily actual face to face human interaction must be seriously challenging. How on earth could you keep up with which version of events you were on at any time. Blimey.
It's like looking into a hall of mirrors o_O
 
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milliepops said:
Good lord.
I'm beginning to wonder how on earth the OP can get through day to day life.
If one can cook up that much misinterpreted, misquoted, twisted fake news twaddle from stuff written on the internet, then daily actual face to face human interaction must be seriously challenging. How on earth could you keep up with which version of events you were on at any time. Blimey.
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Again, you've now been pulled up for this now by others here, not just me, who can see what is going on. Even now the personal attacks continue...but hey ho, you seem to get off on it. You've seen for yourself what people think of your behaviour. Vicious, childish and grotesque. Of course you'll dismiss it, but there it is. Off to bed now. Horses to feed and muck out early tomorrow etc.
 
I think that many of us on the receiving end of your hostile posts have been tolerant and patient actually 🤷‍♀️ you're the one reaching for the insults and cutting off the debate. Its remarkable how you've taken a pretty interesting and informative thread and twisted it up to suit an agenda that doesn't appear to help anyone. Quite weird.
 
The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey it’s useful.

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident?

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isn’t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesn’t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated. The fact that they weren’t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw. You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).
 
McFluff said:
The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey it’s useful.

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident?

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isn’t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesn’t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated. The fact that they weren’t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw. You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).
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I agree. We all have our own things to work on. It's best to support fellow riders.
I've found dressage people very friendly and helpful. There's a good atmosphere in my region. It probably helps that dressage is a much smaller sport where I live than both showjumping and eventing.

I also want to say to the op that I've personally found Cortez to be really helpful with advice. She's someone I would recommend listening to.
 
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Wow, what a thread! Some really interesting tips here, my now retired horse was always very tense and we were marked down regularly, used to find it very frustrating and wish I'd had this thread to read through then!

The best comment I ever had was the judge approaching me while I was perusing the scoreboard, putting her hand on my shoulder and saying "well done for staying on, and for riding to the end of the test" o_Oo_O next time out to that venue, I didn't manage to stay on though :eek::D:D

As for the OP, she clearly came on here spoiling for a fight, she's deliberately misinterpreted many experienced and helpful posters, and has been rude and insulting. She's obviously a returning troll who often pops up at Christmas time; I wonder whether she does it for kicks or if she has mental health issues, as she does it year after year after year, always around this time. She has, however, created a really informative and interesting thread with much food for though, which will, not have been her intention!
 
Melodra said:
Again, you've now been pulled up for this now by others here, not just me, who can see what is going on. Even now the personal attacks continue...but hey ho, you seem to get off on it. You've seen for yourself what people think of your behaviour. Vicious, childish and grotesque. Of course you'll dismiss it, but there it is. Off to bed now. Horses to feed and muck out early tomorrow etc.
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I think I begin to understand why your horse is so tense .
Horses don’t like angry people
 
McFluff said:
The theoretical issue in this thread is really interesting, thank you to all those who have taken ages to share your knowledge. As someone starting out on my dressage journey it’s useful.

In my personal experience no good can come from questioning why another combination scored better (or worse) than me. All I can control is how I ride/react, and for me the competition is with myself. Have I got less of a particular (constructive) comment this time? Am I moving in the right direction? Has my horse felt more relaxed? Happier? More confident?

I also strongly believe that at a competition, the only person who should be judging is the judge. It isn’t fair, especially at the lower levels to criticise fellow competitors. Everyone who is competing is there to try their best. Everyone is dealing with different challenges and finds different elements of competing easy/difficult. Everyone has good days and bad days.
OP, some of your later posts really sound like you are being very critical of your fellow competitor - it doesn’t start out that way, but in further posts, you do seem to suggest that they were abusing their horse. That feels very unfair to them, as if it were true, they should have been eliminated. The fact that they weren’t would suggest that there were positives in the test that the judge saw. You can choose to try and learn from that, or not. Your main focus needs to be you and your horse, get out and about, enjoy being together, and ignore other tests in your class (unless you are watching to try and remember the test!!).
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Fair comment. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest abuse; however I do feel continuous kicking and nagging is unethical.... the action means the horse carries out the movements to avoid discomfort.... For me, I believe the horse should be happy and willing in its work, not just in dressage but in all spheres. I’ve mentioned in a post above, we’ve just spent the summer working with a horse who had been kicked and nagged....after such a promising start to life he had been written off by his previous owner as useless...could barely get a trot out of him. What worked for him was making work fun for him again, praise when he got it right, rather than the continuous punishment of being kicked to keep him going....he instead became willing. That said, while unethical, it’s a push to describe most kicking and nagging as abuse and was not suggesting that..the ethics of it are though another matter.

I keep being told that no one here is advocating kicking (after advocating kicking)....if not then what are they arguing with me about?

However you are right, I should be focused on my test and my test alone...and how my own horse performed. I wasn’t the only person at the event to bring this up, which is why I thought it was an interesting discussion. I wasn’t posting piqued about my score or the other competitors as that may have been interpreted ...merely interested in other viewpoints. I rarely get the chance to watch other tests as it is, and doing so this time has opened up a real can of worms it seems! I think there is a lot in what you say about simply focusing on my own horse going forwards....oh and not posting about it here!
 
Goldenstar said:
I think I begin to understand why your horse is so tense. Horses don’t like angry people. t
The Xmas Furry said:
Maybe OP and Mrs Jinglebells should take note, unless they are one and the same .... ;)
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Wow. Could you really sink much lower than that comment? How awful and bitter to make that comment to a stranger. Again the comments are there condemning you for this behaviour and still you carry on.

Given that this entire post essentially comes down to willingness vs force I’m satisfied that my horses are more than happy. Everything I do, the way my riding and training, the overarching philosophy of my trainer which I work hard to follow is to keep those horses sweet, happy, willing and enjoying their work. The results speak for themselves.

Your comment is disingenuous and spiteful as any fool knows a novice at his second event could not unreasonably be likely to show some tension. The accusations of mental health issues, comments such as the above only reinforce what others have said. You won’t upset me with comments like that.
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Melodra said:
I keep being told that no one here is advocating kicking (after advocating kicking)....if not then what are they arguing with me about?
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Time after time you fail to produce any quotes to back up your assertions.
And as far as I can tell, you're the only one getting angry and arguing? 🤨
 
Goldenstar said:
You really have no insight at all ,the only person name calling is you .
You are either a Christmas troll ( that’s what I hope ) or you have some problems for which I am sorry .
This is a very supportive forum when people have problems perhaps it’s not quite what you want .
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Carry on with the bitter and personal attacks. The fact that you just can’t leave my thread alone, despite causing me some distress yesterday and and this morning sink to the depths of the above comment really says it all. Not sure it’s me with the issues here.
 
ester said:
Just to be helpful your comments don’t show if you write inside the quote box, if you write outside the quote box they do.
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Ah, I wondered why some people have replied with just a quote and no comment. Not just on this thread, but others too. I thought it was a forum glitch.
 
milliepops said:
Time after time you fail to produce any quotes to back up your assertions.
And as far as I can tell, you're the only one getting angry and arguing? 🤨
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That didn’t take long. You guys really do live here don’t you? Millie, what was it you said about kicking your horse at Prelim?
 
I repeat the person engaging in personal attacks and name calling is you .
I don’t like people who spew abuse about people on here this is a nice forum where we have fun talking about horses .
We can disagree about things it’s not personal .
In fact if you had read my posts you would have seen I was sympathetic to your thoughts I can only assume you did not bother .
As for leaving it alone why should I no one put you in charge .
 
Melodra said:
however I do feel continuous kicking and nagging is unethical.... the action means the horse carries out the movements to avoid discomfort.... For me, I believe the horse should be happy and willing in its work, not just in dressage but in all spheres.
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-A horse being tense or stressed at a show is just as unethical as a strong or clumsy leg aid, on some level it is not happy with the situation it is in and this manifests itself in tension a judge can see
-People holding horses with unsteady contact or sawing cause more pain to the horse than nagging with a leg

If you don't ever want to kick a horse then you have obviously never had to sit on a nappy horse, or had to train a young horse, because at times a good pony club kick fixes the problem and everyone moves on. A lot of horse training is teaching them to move away from discomfort. How do you think your horse learnt to turn? It does it to relieve pressure on one side of its mouth from the bit, is that not unethical too?

I genuinely don't understand your theory of horse training. You say horses should never be made uncomfortable, but in that case why would you bring your horse to another dressage show if he displayed such stressed behaviour at the first, showing his obvious discomfort? Or do you just cherrypick kicking as the one you think is bad? Because you see people nagging horses, but i have never seen it be a welfare issue in three decades of riding. And judges pull people up all the time for misuse of spurs, or if a horse looks off, they would pull up someone if kicking was an issue too.

What is the different between you saying 'the judge said my horse was tense', he will be better next time with more milage' and someone else saying 'god my horse shut down cause it was his first time in a ring and i had to nag him with my leg, he will be better next time'?
 
Goldenstar said:
I repeat the person engaging in personal attacks and name calling is you .
I don’t like people who spew abuse about people on here this is a nice forum where we have fun talking about horses .
We can disagree about things it’s not personal .
In fact if you had read my posts you would have seen I was sympathetic to your thoughts I can only assume you did not bother .
As for leaving it alone why should I no one put you in charge .
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You were sympathetic until you saw your online friends having a go, so yes it was rather a surprise to see you change your entire viewpoint.

Why should you leave it alone? Not sure what you get out of goading and attacking a stranger. I know some people get off on it but really....it’s a funny world isn’t it?
 
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