Tension in Dressage

[paddi22]

I just can't understand how anyone would train any horse if they never kicked it? Do you go straight to a whip then?

 

[Melodra]

-A horse being tense or stressed at a show is just as unethical as a strong or clumsy leg aid, on some level it is not happy with the situation it is in and this manifests itself in tension a judge can see
-People holding horses with unsteady contact or sawing cause more pain to the horse than nagging with a leg

If you don't ever want to kick a horse then you have obviously never had to sit on a nappy horse, or had to train a young horse, because at times a good pony club kick fixes the problem and everyone moves on. A lot of horse training is teaching them to move away from discomfort. How do you think your horse learnt to turn? It does it to relieve pressure on one side of its mouth from the bit, is that not unethical too?

I genuinely don't understand your theory of horse training. You say horses should never be made uncomfortable, but in that case why would you bring your horse to another dressage show if he displayed such stressed behaviour at the first, showing his obvious discomfort? Or do you just cherrypick kicking as the one you think is bad? Because you see people nagging horses, but i have never seen it be a welfare issue in three decades of riding. And judges pull people up all the time for misuse of spurs, or if a horse looks off, they would pull up someone if kicking was an issue too.

What is the different between you saying 'the judge said my horse was tense', he will be better next time with more milage' and someone else saying 'god my horse shut down cause it was his first time in a ring and i had to nag him with my leg, he will be better next time'?

Funny comment this one! Wasn’t it you who said he should be totally chilled next time? Wasn’t it you who said you took your tense horse to “6 little shows to settle him”

This is becoming rather a joke now, really what is the point in engaging when you say one thing and then to defend your friends something entirely different. The difference as I have been trying to get across is natural exuberance and excitement of a horse still nonetheless willing vs a horse literally being forced to be “obedient”. I repeat for the 100th time, I NEVER saw on my horse’s mouth or force an “outline” he would back right off if I did that. Not sure why you are even bringing that up.

You’re making this up as you go along.

 

[tallyho!]

Paddi22 may as well make up posts going along... you are

 

[JFTDWS]

You’re making this up as you go along.

Someone is making this up as the go along, certainly. It’s not paddi...

 

[Snitch]

 

[JennBags]

@Melodra you seem to think that someone can be "accused" of mental health issues. As having MH problems are out of the control of the person who has them, its not an accusation, just a simple statement. Much like if you said I was short-sighted, I don't take that as a personal slight as I am short-sighted. I wear glasses to correct my eyesight but I'm always going to be short-sighted. Start calling me fatty four-eyes, it becomes a personal insult.

If you do have mental health issues, I suggest you make sure you take your meds and step away from the internet. You clearly have issues with understanding the written word as you are totally missing the points that people are making, such as the quote from paddi22; I can see her point clearly but you are completely misinterpreting it; I'm not sure if that's deliberate or just a lack of comprehension.

 

[milliepops]

That didn’t take long. You guys really do live here don’t you? Millie, what was it you said about kicking your horse at Prelim?

Not really, finished at the yard so popped back for some breakfast before starting the next jobs.

Ah. Is THAT what this is all about? You've misquoted AGAIN. lol.

Since you refuse to, I will once again dig back to, ooh, page 5.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim.

Serious question, OP, is english not your first language? because this isn't the first time you've got into a pickle over a phrase in common usage. A horse described as a kickalong means that it's behind the rider's leg. Not that the rider literally kicks it along

I sense that you know that really, because your next post to me was this :

You trained her not to be a kick-along...you didn't carry on kicking her though did you?

So you agree, I never did say that I either advocated kicking nor that I "kicked my horse through prelim"

Can we drop that one now?

 

[Tihamandturkey]

About time this thread wound up - people coming on just to make nasty comments - not cool

 

[Goldenstar]

View attachment 28309

Que the music for coming home for Christmas

 

[Goldenstar]

You were sympathetic until you saw your online friends having a go, so yes it was rather a surprise to see you change your entire viewpoint.

Why should you leave it alone? Not sure what you get out of goading and attacking a stranger. I know some people get off on it but really....it’s a funny world isn’t it?

I have not changed view point at all .
I changed my view of you based on your behaviour .
My views on horses tests and training remain unaltered .
You can sure dish it out but you can’t take it .

 

[YorksG]

About time this thread wound up - people coming on just to make nasty comments - not cool

The way for threads to end, is by people stopping posting, how cool do you think it is to say that people are telling lies, the OP is the one who has made rude and personal remarks and been stigmatising about people with mental health problems.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm going to try and answer the original question again and this is not anything different then what people are already saying...

Being tense and whizzy is a fault.
Being behind the leg is a fault.
They will both be marked down by a dressage judge.
The behind the leg horse MIGHT have better rhythm and accuracy do MIGHT just edge it on the scores.
Without seeing both tests and test sheets it is not really possible to explain specifically why that specific horse MIGHT have beaten your specific horse on that specific day.
Hypothesizing about why is not a personal insult to you and your horse but you have taken it as such and attacked back. Or you are a troll and just arguing for the sake of it or because you have a personal gripe against some people on the forum.

Tension is a training problem that needs correcting.
Being behind the leg is a training problem that needs correcting.
Whether one is "worse" than the other is a matter of opinion and possibly preference or which one finds easier to correct.
Personally I'd rather have a whizzer to calm down than a plodder to gee up. I don't like kicking though and would use a whip on my boot as a starting point to get a response to a lighter leg aid. And If probably rather use a schooling whip behind the leg even than pony club kicking (never had much success with kicking myself, but that's just my experience).

FWIW I'm not sure if a horse being "excited" is actually a happy excited horse in the way we as humans experience excitement. More the horse is in a heightened state and it's a type of stress. I'm a much happier human when my horses are relaxed and present in their heads than when they are "excited" and off somewhere in prey animal mode...

But that is a whole different discussion.

 

[tallyho!]

Someone is making this up as the go along, certainly. It’s not paddi...

ooooohhhhh noooo she iiiiissssssnnn'tt.........

 

[SEL]

Catching up with a hangover!

I've definitely been the person on the ploddy cob in the past (she was sweet & is now in her perfect home) & i have no doubt that it wasn't my prettiest riding. She still needed a pony club kick into canter on one rein at the time.

I was probably marked down on flapping legs because that's a common problem when I'm nervous. BUT I rarely lose marks for accuracy and little cob had a steady rhythm. She wasn't flashy and she was far from inspiring but she did a couple of solid tests. We weren't there to win, just to give a very green unschooled pony a new experience.

Would we have beaten tense? Possibly. Hard to say without seeing the actual rides. She was a kick-a-long, she was on the forehand but she was steady, relaxed and accurate in 2 pretty easy prelim tests and got consistent marks.

My.old boy would definitely be in the tense category. I used to struggle to control his hindquarters if he was tense so he wasn't straight and we'd rush, then back off the leg, then rush again etc. He had much, much better movement and a fabulous natural outline but little cob would have scored more highly if they were up against each other.

That's not to say yours was as bad as him, but having ridden both types I can see why one would score higher

Btw if I can post the link then I liked this article
https://www.horseanswerstoday.com/l...ssage/item/75-how-to-impress-a-dressage-judge

 

[chattygoneon3]

Picking my way through this thread has been fun and I’ve found it both interesting and informative.
I spend a lot of time on the forum ( and still manage to do the horses and everything else that’s required) but don’t post much unless I have something new or relevant to add. I’m also happy to stay anonymous. However, I’m very grateful to those members that let us into their horsey world and share photos and videos of their training and competitions. We are lucky to have so many members that post their obvious experience and knowledge.
Any one with experience knows that not all horses are the same and what works for one doesn’t necessarily work for another. Being on the forum is a great place to discuss and learn, let’s face it no one knows it all and there is always something new to learn.
Re kicking , of course it’s not what we want to be doing all the time, but sometimes it’s necessary, have I kicked ? Of course. Should I hang my head in shame? Absolutely not. Will I do it again ? Undoubtedly.
Merry Christmas to one and all .

 

[AdorableAlice]

I just can't understand how anyone would train any horse if they never kicked it? Do you go straight to a whip then?

What an awful thread, lets go back to training horses the correct way.

A horse that is so worried/sharp/tense to the extent it cannot tolerate the leg on has to be quietly taught that accepting the leg is its 'safe' place. This type of horse, so sought after by the likes of Carl Hester, takes ages to train, to find trust in its rider and to be successful.

A horse that is dead to the leg has not been broken and ridden away properly. It has not been taught to accept the leg and move forward and very likely not been halter broken properly either. It has no conception of the 'move forward' request.

Both types have to accept being 'kicked' if they are to become safe, secure and successful as they go through their lives. The way they get there is to receive correct, progressive and systematic training combined with various outings to build their confidence.

I do hope no one considers me to a bully on HHo.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

My horse stopped for a shit on a 20m circle in my first test. We got a 5 for that and it lost us a place. So what? It's not important. I was really pleased with her and neither the judging nor anyone's comments on the internet change that. I did get down about the judges comments for a bit but hey.

Ignoring the rest of the thread, because I honestly don't care. But, yeah, this reminds me of something that I disagree with - people who won't let their horse stop for a poo when under saddle. I seriously hate those people. Not only because I think it's not fair on the horse, but also because making a horse keep moving whilst passing droppings results in a trail of manure for other people to pick up, as opposed to just the one tidy heap. Have some consideration and let your poor horse stop for a loo break! We all know you won't bother poo picking the arena afterwards, so it's really the least you can do for whoever has to sort that this time. And if it happens on a hack then ditto, because other people don't like having to play "Guess how far this trail of manure will last for?", especially not when we're on foot and you've apparently been making your horse dance the fandango whilst it poops. On the footpath (the people kind of footpath with a kerb, etc.), the road, the verge, seriously, what the actual Hades are you feeding this animal? Is it even an animal that's known to science? I mean, by this point, it looks as if you may have skipped riding entirely and just brought a big sack of poo with you and scattered it about randomly wherever anyone might step!

Damn, that felt good! So good in fact, that I think I'll add my complaint about people who don't bother making sure that their bit of the electric fencing isn't shorting out the power for everybody else on the yard. Those people suck too, and should be fed to something. I don't know exactly what, but something with teeth, that eats you slowly, perhaps taking as long as you've taken in terms of getting round to fixing your fencing.

Merry fecking Xmas to all.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'd actually prefer it if she didn't stop to poop. But don't worry, I won't make anyone else clean it up...

 

[Melodra]

Not really, finished at the yard so popped back for some breakfast before starting the next jobs.

Ah. Is THAT what this is all about? You've misquoted AGAIN. lol

Since you refuse to, I will once again dig back to, ooh, page 5.



Serious question, OP, is english not your first language? because this isn't the first time you've got into a pickle over a phrase in common usage. A horse described as a kickalong means that it's behind the rider's leg. Not that the rider literally kicks it along

I sense that you know that really, because your next post to me was this :



So you agree, I never did say that I either advocated kicking nor that I "kicked my horse through prelim"

Can we drop that one now?

Dear me, she’s at it all day again 🙄

What you actually said, Mills, was that you had to kick her through your Prelim tests because she was anxious. However you have since trained her through the levels and therefore in your view horses being kicked through a test at Prelim should not be disregarded as a future dressage prospect.

 

[JFTDWS]

Blimey, KittenInATree, is the tone of this thread infectious or something?

 

[Melodra]

I'm going to try and answer the original question again and this is not anything different then what people are already saying...

Being tense and whizzy is a fault.
Being behind the leg is a fault.
They will both be marked down by a dressage judge.
The behind the leg horse MIGHT have better rhythm and accuracy do MIGHT just edge it on the scores.
Without seeing both tests and test sheets it is not really possible to explain specifically why that specific horse MIGHT have beaten your specific horse on that specific day.
Hypothesizing about why is not a personal insult to you and your horse but you have taken it as such and attacked back. Or you are a troll and just arguing for the sake of it or because you have a personal gripe against some people on the forum.

Tension is a training problem that needs correcting.
Being behind the leg is a training problem that needs correcting.
Whether one is "worse" than the other is a matter of opinion and possibly preference or which one finds easier to correct.
Personally I'd rather have a whizzer to calm down than a plodder to gee up. I don't like kicking though and would use a whip on my boot as a starting point to get a response to a lighter leg aid. And If probably rather use a schooling whip behind the leg even than pony club kicking (never had much success with kicking myself, but that's just my experience).

FWIW I'm not sure if a horse being "excited" is actually a happy excited horse in the way we as humans experience excitement. More the horse is in a heightened state and it's a type of stress. I'm a much happier human when my horses are relaxed and present in their heads than when they are "excited" and off somewhere in prey animal mode...

But that is a whole different discussion.

Incorrect I’m afraid. I asked for thoughts. Three people gave me theirs. I thanked them politely (have a look at the first page of this thread) and said that while I understood the issues behind tension, in my view a horse being kicked along leaning on the rider’s hands was not soft, submissive or harmonious.

That is not claiming to be attacked. The attacks came after this comment, specifically from Cortez who told me it was not my place to hold an opinion on this and matters degenerated from there.

This is a forum for all subscribers. It’s not simply a place for the regulars many of who appear to have zero life outside of it to put forward their “expert” opinion and trash those who dare to disagree. It’s actually not acceptable behaviour and in the real world would not be tolerated.

An excited horse is just that. Whether it is out playing in the field or getting out of the lorry at an event and seeing lots of other horses. It’s not ideal in a dressage test, but the horse is not in distress or discomfort. I agree with the term heightened state; it’s not unnatural or unusual. It’s not really a training problem in a novice at his second event who is relaxed at home. If it became a persistent problem regardless of the horse’s experience, then yes I might agree, however the huge improvement between first and second tests means I’m really not concerned at this stage.

 

[ester]

We do have a perfectly good quote button, I even gave you advise on how to best use it. Nowhere did MP say she was kicking though feel free to find other quotes that say otherwise to enlighten us all. I’m honestly gobsmacked that someone who got so cross about being misquoted will freely do it to others

because their prelim work is the basic introduction to dressage shows, test patterns and the first opportunity most horses and riders have to learn about the competition environment. It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what they will go on to achieve in the future.

My established horse was an absolute kickalong at prelim. She was behind my leg because she was anxious, we could work through it well at arena hire and lessons where there was more time but her time at the lower levels was very much about her learning how to deal with the additional stresses of the competition arena.
She's now competing at Inter1 level training towards I2 and very forward thinking, the progress has been made in 2 broad ways - 1. getting her accustomed to new places, working in with strange horses and then doing the same work between the boards, and 2. at home, developing her reactions to my aids to make her more sensitive so that even when she is distracted by a new environment she knows to still react to me appropriately.

To say that a horse can't progress if it starts off being backward thinking would be to dismiss thousands of horses! It's generally not that difficult to tune up a horse that is a bit slow to the aids if you choose to address it, and as someone mentioned before those horses are often the easier and quicker to then train up because you aren't fighting their buzziness when trying to teach something new.

 

[JFTDWS]

We do have a perfectly good quote button, I even gave you advise on how to best use it. Nowhere did MP say she was kicking though feel free to find other quotes that say otherwise to enlighten us all. I’m honestly gobsmacked that someone who got so cross about being misquoted will freely do it to others

But there's nothing like a bit of hypocrisy to rile up the regulars, while you're trip-trapping over the bridge...

 

[ester]

If I look at the first page of this thread there are three instances where I would consider you impolite. Would you like the screenshots?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

 

[blitznbobs]

View attachment 28318

But what if you like petting them?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

But what if you like petting them?

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes we are adopting this one for Christmas .

 

[JFTDWS]

 

[PapaverFollis]

An excited horse is just that. Whether it is out playing in the field or getting out of the lorry at an event and seeing lots of other horses. It’s not ideal in a dressage test, but the horse is not in distress or discomfort. I agree with the term heightened state; it’s not unnatural or unusual. It’s not really a training problem in a novice at his second event who is relaxed at home. If it became a persistent problem regardless of the horse’s experience, then yes I might agree, however the huge improvement between first and second tests means I’m really not concerned at this stage.

Is an excited horse "just that" though?

I would tend to say no. I'd say an "excited" horse is stressed or frustrated or anxious. A happy horse is loose and relaxed. I don't think they get excited in the same way we do.

A horse that is tense when ridden has a training issue. That doesn't mean anything other than t is something that needs to be worked on. It's good that your horse improved between tests. That doesn't mean there isn't something there that still needs to be worked on? Would you like your horse to stay "tense" forever or would you like it to improve and become more relaxed? If you would like to see improvement then there is a training issue. The training may involve just taking him to more events... a training issue does not necessarily mean starting again from scratch. All horses have training issues because no horse is perfect...

It doesn't have to be unnatural or unusual for it to be something that needs improvement?

Personally I want my horse to not get into a heightened state as much as is possible. But at the same time in order to achieve that you need to take them a little out if their comfort zone in order to expand it. It's a balance. So a little heightened is ok but going nuts is not in my view. It's perfectly ok that your horse was tense, he was still responding to you etc which means you were stretching him but not overwhelming him. And that's ok. But it is sonething that will lose you marks and something to improve upon.