THAT french 'trainer'

Unfortunately, this I suppose is done in the name of Natural Horsemanship, which it obviously isn't.
I don't know who this trainer is, but she is obviously a fool and bully.

Yes, it's true as fburton ironically said, horses do kick each other, but they don't hold on preventing the other getting away.

All sorts of people train in all sorts of ways some are just egotistical barstewards, who will always get it wrong and be abusive.
 
redmone said:
I don't often comment on these sorts of threads, I leave it to more learned folk. But I had to voice what is on my mind this time.

This video shows what a kind, trusting and forgiving soul most horses have.

Look at the size of the horse. Look at how much muscle and power it has.

And look at her.

The horse could pull away at any time. I don't believe that the trainer and the rope halter could hold it, if it chose to go.

The horse doesn't try to bite her. It doesn't try to kick her. A quick pull in the right direction and it could have, it if chose to.

It just stands there, looking sad, and looking confused (after the panic and obvious discomfort has stopped). Like it's thinking "she'll stop soon, and I'll make her happy with me". What could it have possibly done to deserve that?

As others have said, 5 minutes alone would do. No ropes. No boots. My bare hands would be fine.

:mad:
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This has made me feel a bit teary as it was exactly what I thought as I watched it. If I accidently do something that makes Deans throw his head up like that even once I spend the next 45 minutes apologising and trying to make it up to him. Trainer. Pah.

Fburton - I knew you were being sarcastic ;)
 
Can't believe the guy is letting her do that to his horse! And as has been said this is a true example of how honest and kind horses are, never tries to kick or anything.
 
I dont understand how the owner is just standing there watching?! I would grab my horse off her, tell her what I thought about her 'training' and get out there asap
 
Ariane* said:
I had to register on the forum to reply to this post,

Being French, I have been to this trainer's website in the past and I am quite shocked, she is quite well known. Hearing what she was saying, she was trying to make the horse walk backwards. :(

She also swear at him/her several times :mad:
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Thank you Ariane*, I was unable to tell from the video what she wanted the horse to do. I don't think she succeeded in teaching the horse anything useful, certainly not to back up!
 
I've only just read the blog text under the video - excellent stuff! I am delighted to see they give an expanded version of the "boss" argument that I summarised last night (in my drunken, idiotic state ;)). Opinions differ, of course, and there's a whole spectrum of thought when it comes to buying into the whole dominance thing. Great to see it critiqued here! :D
 
Pale Rider said:
Yes, it's true as fburton ironically said, horses do kick each other, but they don't hold on preventing the other getting away.
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True enough (although in domestic conditions the bullied are sometimes unable to escape so easily from bullies, e.g. in corners of fields, and have themselves to resort to kicking in self defence).

Are we ever justified in kicking horses like this in order to train? Is it ever necessary? My answer to both questions is a resounding "No!". Those who do feel the need to 'get physical' with horses on a regular basis, however, will typically justify their actions with the facile "Horses do worse to each other" argument.
 
Blimey fburton my blood ran cold reading your first post! :eek: kindly refrain from frightening us like that again will you? ;) :D

Also, kindly refrain from pipping me to the post with the comment I was about to make! :mad: It makes me look like I'm being a sheep. Baaa. Baaah!! :D

I thought the article was the best article I think I have ever seen about horse training. Man's biggest enemy the search of true horsemanship has got to be our ego :(
 
Have only watched a short part. Disgusting.

"What kind of insanity makes a person do... well, that... in front of a camera?"
I find the above epona comment erm interesting. lol What has doing it in front of a camera got to do with it. :confused:

Using (and understanding) horse behaviour to your advantage is different to thinking anything horses do to each other is acceptable imo... but perhaps not... :cool: :D
 
Ariane* said:
I had to register on the forum to reply to this post,

Being French, I have been to this trainer's website in the past and I am quite shocked, she is quite well known. Hearing what she was saying, she was trying to make the horse walk backwards. :(

She also swear at him/her several times :mad:
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Thank you so much for this Ariane and welcome to HHO :)

Isn't it interesting that not only did the horse not understand what she was asking, but (not knowing the language) neither did we!
 
hollieeb said:
I dont understand how the owner is just standing there watching?! I would grab my horse off her, tell her what I thought about her 'training' and get out there asap
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Don't have too much of a downer on the owner, yes I agree I would have grabbed my horse BUT many people believe the blurb and when you look up to a person (like her victims seem to) it is very difficult, despite nagging doubts, to actually go against them, he THOUGHT he was doing right by his horse, he was being bullied too.
 
fburton said:
True enough (although in domestic conditions the bullied are sometimes unable to escape so easily from bullies, e.g. in corners of fields, and have themselves to resort to kicking in self defence).

Are we ever justified in kicking horses like this in order to train? Is it ever necessary? My answer to both questions is a resounding "No!". Those who do feel the need to 'get physical' with horses on a regular basis, however, will typically justify their actions with the facile "Horses do worse to each other" argument.
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Soooo glad the real fburton is back :)
 
Of course booting a horse in the guts is the same to me as jabbing it in the mouth with a bit, whacking it with a stick or whip, giving it a good jab with spurs, bending its head to its chest, or any other mindless violence some equine idiot dreams up. Violence is violence remember that and your just as violent with a bit, spur or whip as you are with a boot.
 
Female with a big horse wearing a rope halter speaking in French to an audience in a school.
Randomly (seems to me) yanking on the halter causing horse to throw it's head up and move in various directions. When it stands still she tries to touch it's ears and forehead. Of course poor horse throws it's head away but eventually lets her. More of the same yanking and horse begins to circle so she hits it with the end of her lead rope... horse again moving away (what a surprize lol) more of the same then she boots the horse in it's belly. That's all I watched.
:(
 
amandap said:
Female with a big horse wearing a rope halter speaking in French to an audience in a school.
Randomly (seems to me) yanking on the halter causing horse to throw it's head up and move in various directions. When it stands still she tries to touch it's ears and forehead. Of course poor horse throws it's head away but eventually lets her. More of the same yanking and horse begins to circle so she hits it with the end of her lead rope... horse again moving away (what a surprize lol) more of the same then she boots the horse in it's belly. That's all I watched.
:(
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Thanks for explaining, just managed to watch the video and I am absolutely disgusted!! ...God if I ever saw that women I would not be responsible for my actions :mad::mad:
 
Pale Rider said:
Of course booting a horse in the guts is the same to me as jabbing it in the mouth with a bit, whacking it with a stick or whip, giving it a good jab with spurs, bending its head to its chest, or any other mindless violence some equine idiot dreams up. Violence is violence remember that and your just as violent with a bit, spur or whip as you are with a boot.
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Oh Lordy here I go agreeing with you again :)

You are absolutely right, and, at the risk of going off at a tangent, go to any show, whether local or bigger you will see the boot, whip and spur brigade, usually, but not always, out of ignorance. When I see these people I do wonder who trains/teaches them, they are not good adverts. These same people (I could name one or two) who abuse their horses through ignorance (or in some cases fear) every time they ride were some of the first to join the Rolkur outcry. Ironic I felt.

I do want to say right now though that Rolkur is an abomination and needs culling out of any training system!

I do believe that horses need leaders, BUT you don't need bullying tactics to achieve this, fairness, firmness and reward is the real requirement.

Sorry for the rant :)
 
If these pratts really believe that horses need training by people playing at being horses, then should watch the real herd leaders! In our little herd, of slow changing members (if they come here they stay for life) the one in charge is always the calm sensible one, who inspires confidence in the others, that the others know is not frightened of anything, or if they are a bit worried will take them calmly away from any danger. Surely that is the 'role' they should be aspiring to?
 
YorksG said:
If these pratts really believe that horses need training by people playing at being horses, then should watch the real herd leaders! In our little herd, of slow changing members (if they come here they stay for life) the one in charge is always the calm sensible one, who inspires confidence in the others, that the others know is not frightened of anything, or if they are a bit worried will take them calmly away from any danger. Surely that is the 'role' they should be aspiring to?
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This is so true and what a lot of these bods overlook.

IME it is the second in command who does all the work not the lead
 
YorksG said:
If these pratts really believe that horses need training by people playing at being horses, then should watch the real herd leaders! In our little herd, of slow changing members (if they come here they stay for life) the one in charge is always the calm sensible one, who inspires confidence in the others, that the others know is not frightened of anything, or if they are a bit worried will take them calmly away from any danger. Surely that is the 'role' they should be aspiring to?
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You're absolutely right, imo. Maybe that kind of leadership isn't spectacular enough for some, or just not so obvious when it's the dominant bullies that tend to hog the limelight - I dunno.

Did you read what Peace Equestrian Park had to say in the "Comments"? Classic dominance paradigm, with all the right phrases, including the obligatory "establish respect". Something else I've noticed... almost without exception, it's people with this viewpoint who mention the "1200lb horse". Why is that?? (And why 1200lb and not 1100 or 1300lb? :eek:) I have a theory that it is to do with a fear of the big, scary beast that horses undoubtedly can be, but also the idea that, because we are so much punier than them, we are justified in embiggening ourselves to match their power including by brute, physical means. The fact that horses are not only powerful but also "by gentleness confined" (to borrow the words from Ronald Duncan's lovely poem) seems to go unremarked. I could be totally wrong, of course!
 
fburton said:
You're absolutely right, imo. Maybe that kind of leadership isn't spectacular enough for some, or just not so obvious when it's the dominant bullies that tend to hog the limelight - I dunno.

Did you read what Peace Equestrian Park had to say in the "Comments"? Classic dominance paradigm, with all the right phrases, including the obligatory "establish respect". Something else I've noticed... almost without exception, it's people with this viewpoint who mention the "1200lb horse". Why is that?? (And why 1200lb and not 1100 or 1300lb? :eek:) I have a theory that it is to do with a fear of the big, scary beast that horses undoubtedly can be, but also the idea that, because we are so much punier than them, we are justified in embiggening ourselves to match their power including by brute, physical means. The fact that horses are not only powerful but also "by gentleness confined" (to borrow the words from Ronald Duncan's lovely poem) seems to go unremarked. I could be totally wrong, of course!
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I think you have that right, it is fear driven by the 'trainer'. Why people who are so scared of the horse choose to spend their working life with them, is quite beyond me. I also think that some of these people who perceive horses as dangerous, feel a rather strange ego boost from having a large, 'dangerous' animal 'at their mercy' and from the fact that they can inflict pain on that animal, without getting damaged themselves :(
 
Yep, and that has been acknowledged by all the really good (IMO) horse trainers who try to emulate horse behaviour; the grounded, sensible leader is elected by the herd and is awarded respect by the other members volubtarily. The bullying alpha doesn't have respect in the same way, IMO. They achieve compliance through fear and force. Same could be observed in human groups really.

I can understand the behaviour of those who stand by and do nothing. I myself have been in similar situations. Once when I witnessed a girl kicking and thumping a horse once she had dragged it into its stable because 'the b*****d wouldn't be caught,' and several of us gawped, frozen to the spot in disbelief. How I regret not intervening. The other time was when I had a lesson with a 'top dressage trainer' who insisted I 'kick kick kick, now smack smack SMACK!'. I knew as of 10 minutes into that hour long lesson I would not return for another, and I strongly regret not just walking out of the lesson there and then, but I thought I must have been missing some elusive big 'thing', because this was a well known and highly regarded individual. I only did about a quarter of the nagging and whipping she wanted me to do, but I did take the whole hour long lesson and leave having paid and thanked her, and then spent the next 2 months weeping and putting right my poor confused and sore horse. An equine college I attended saw a massive international name come to do a demonstration on our horses. About 250 people were watching while he jabbed a very intelligent and therefore 'difficult' horse in the mouth with his bit for 45 minutes. Nobody I spoke to afterwards thought what he did was acceptable, including staff, students and public alike. The yard manager in particular expressed deep regret that she didn't enter the arena and remove the horse from the demo. He spent the next 4 weeks off work with a bruised mouth. So yes, I can see how people are stunned into acceptance of what they know to be wrong, if they are dazzled by a 'well respected' big name. It is very British, no idea if it is French too, to feel 'I must be missing something, this person knows more than me.' If the owners involved are anything like me they would have kicked themselves afterwards and not gone near the woman again.
 
Sorry to say I have seen demos of a similar nature, minus the belly kicking and have photos to show for it. This yanking and winding up of calm horses is by no means peculiar to this trainer or even one subset of NH practitioners.
 
It's not just fear of a horse that's at play here imo. Fear of being shown up (ego) and fear on not being in 'control' are factors too.

When you break it right down I think fburton is probably right... fear is perhaps the driver here.
 
That was so awful to watch. I wanted to scream at her "he doesnt understand you stupid bint". Bless that poor horse. You can see quite clearly he's not sure what he's expected to do. I'm totally bemused at what booting plus yanking is supposed to achieve.
 
Fransurrey said:
Sorry to say I have seen demos of a similar nature, minus the belly kicking and have photos to show for it. This yanking and winding up of calm horses is by no means peculiar to this trainer or even one subset of NH practitioners.
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Or any 'school' of horsemanship. Ever herd the words... "you've got to show him who's boss"?
 
I find what this woman is doing totally abhorrent.
It is obvious and crude, thuggish in fact.
I also find the less obvious abhorrent, the tight flash allowing the bit to be forced into the roof of the mouth while crushing the jaw.
Strapping the horses head down with leverage, excessive pressure on the poll.
All the nasty things people do pretending they are not the same as this oafish woman.
 
YorksG said:
If these pratts really believe that horses need training by people playing at being horses, then should watch the real herd leaders! In our little herd, of slow changing members (if they come here they stay for life) the one in charge is always the calm sensible one, who inspires confidence in the others, that the others know is not frightened of anything, or if they are a bit worried will take them calmly away from any danger. Surely that is the 'role' they should be aspiring to?
Click to expand...

Amaranta said:
This is so true and what a lot of these bods overlook.

IME it is the second in command who does all the work not the lead
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This exactly, in any herd environment ebs was always the boss, the bullies were always second in command, I only ever saw ebs boot 2 newcomers who were really really pushing their luck in 11 years of ownership, both took one boot and got back in their box. For the most part, a look or a posture from afar was more than enough to communicate her expectations and get the desired response.
 
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